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Re: MR. President, it is time to go to Ferguson

But an arrest not supported by facts and thorough investigation can damage a good case beyond repair. In this instance, it is better to be slow than wrong.

I disagree. How does an ARREST (not an illegal one, before you say that) damage a case that will be tried in a court?
 
Re: MR. President, it is time to go to Ferguson

I disagree. How does an ARREST (not an illegal one, before you say that) damage a case that will be tried in a court?

Easy, when not supported by sufficient probable cause that a criminal act has occurred. ANY arrest, whether with or without warrant, must be supported by sufficient probable cause of a specific criminal act. Further, each element of the offense the person is accused of must be sufficiently articulated. I know in Texas, all forms of homicide, from capital murder to criminally negligent homicide, have a culpable mental state. If you can't prove the appropriate mental state of a person accused of the crime, they are not guilty of that crime.

An arrest that isn't supported by probable cause would basically be an illegal one. What will be laid out before a grand jury is THE FACTS of the investigation. They, in turn, will determine whether or not those gathered facts amount to probable cause. If you make an arrest, especially in a felony case, which is what this would amount to, and there is deemed not to be probable cause for the arrest, justice would likely never be seen in the case, and the defendant would be no-billed.

That said, as divisive as it would be, a trial will be the ONLY way ALL the FACTS would be laid out in a PUBLIC forum.
 
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Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

This is exactly the problem in America. Its more of a power trip and do as I say or I will kill you blacks!!!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/...post_n_5692266.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Sunil Dutta, a 17-year veteran of the Los Angeles Police Department and professor of homeland security at Colorado Tech University, has a suggestion for victims of police violence searching for someone to blame: Look in the mirror.

In a column published Tuesday in The Washington Post titled, "I’m a cop. If you don’t want to get hurt, don’t challenge me," Dutta responds to mounting criticism of the policing tactics on display in Ferguson, Missouri, amid the hyper-militarization of law enforcement and accusations that officers have violated the First Amendment rights of both demonstrators and journalists covering the events. In a particularly telling passage, Dutta argues that citizens could deter police brutality if they were simply more cooperative, even when they're unjustly targeted.

"Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don’t want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you," he writes. "Don’t argue with me, don’t call me names, don’t tell me that I can’t stop you, don’t say I’m a racist pig, don’t threaten that you’ll sue me and take away my badge. Don’t scream at me that you pay my salary, and don’t even think of aggressively walking towards me. Most field stops are complete in minutes. How difficult is it to cooperate for that long?"

It's worth noting that arguing with a cop and even verbally abusing one, as well as asking for a badge number, are not illegal actions, though they have been known to lead to punishment or arrest. Dutta goes on to admit that police officers aren't perfect and some have been known to be corrupt bullies, but he says your best bet is to swallow your pride, stay quiet and submit to any unlawful actions by police.

"But if you believe (or know) that the cop stopping you is violating your rights or is acting like a bully, I guarantee that the situation will not become easier if you show your anger and resentment," he writes. Dutta goes on to encourage people to seek legal recourse after the fact, rather than protest at the time of the encounter. Of course, an April 2014 poll found that half of Americans don't believe cops are held accountable for misconduct, so that likely won't be much solace to most people.

I must admit, I only read what was posted here in relation to this article, and it is slightly (SLIGHTLY) skewed. Granted, I stand by what I said earlier about the statement that he presented in the above quoted post. But of course, the entire article wasn't referenced for a bit of context.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/

Now, that said, with all that he was correct about in the beginning of the article, he makes several statements that may have some truth in what he was trying to convey, but I would NEVER say it in those terms. ESPECIALLY in today's politically correct, community-oriented climate.
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

I must admit, I only read what was posted here in relation to this article, and it is slightly (SLIGHTLY) skewed. Granted, I stand by what I said earlier about the statement that he presented in the above quoted post. But of course, the entire article wasn't referenced for a bit of context.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/

Now, that said, with all that he was correct about in the beginning of the article, he makes several statements that may have some truth in what he was trying to convey, but I would NEVER say it in those terms. ESPECIALLY in today's politically correct, community-oriented climate.

thanks for posting the full article... but outside of the first couple of paragraphs, and a few statements in the later paragraphs...it's pretty much the same article except he shared his experience as a police officer; his background, what he has encountered, etc.

I still don't agree with his statements highlighted in the first link.

This part SOUNDS good...but unfortunately it's been proven to be bullshit

" Save your anger for later, and channel it appropriately. Do what the officer tells you to and it will end safely for both of you. We have a justice system in which you are presumed innocent; if a cop can do his or her job unmolested, that system can run its course. Later, you can ask for a supervisor, lodge a complaint or contact civil rights organizations if you believe your rights were violated. Feel free to sue the police! Just don’t challenge a cop during a stop."

Perfect example...
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...ates-nj-man-implicates-cops-article-1.1701763

He didn't argue. He didn't fight back. Yet he still was arrested, charged, and was about to go to jail. It becomes a your word vs. the police. :smh:

Chicago is still paying out MILLIONS to individuals that were illegally arrested, charged, and sent to prison by retired Police Commander John Burge and his crew of dirty cops. I'm sure you know I can go on and on with examples.

I don't expect cops to be perfect. They are humans as well. The problem becomes when they forget they are humans and think they area god, or above the law and start violating people's rights because they live in a certain neighborhood, wear their clothes a certain way, or have the "Wrong" color skin. That's wrong and illegal. And once again, instead of us addressing the REAL issues (cops) we tell the victims (african americans) to "...wear the mask that grins and lies...".

I can't get with that...

I can't get with what this cop is saying...
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Why is it that black males are only gunned down in cities that have white chiefs of police?
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

thanks for posting the full article... but outside of the first couple of paragraphs, and a few statements in the later paragraphs...it's pretty much the same article except he shared his experience as a police officer; his background, what he has encountered, etc.

I still don't agree with his statements highlighted in the first link.

This part SOUNDS good...but unfortunately it's been proven to be bullshit

" Save your anger for later, and channel it appropriately. Do what the officer tells you to and it will end safely for both of you. We have a justice system in which you are presumed innocent; if a cop can do his or her job unmolested, that system can run its course. Later, you can ask for a supervisor, lodge a complaint or contact civil rights organizations if you believe your rights were violated. Feel free to sue the police! Just don’t challenge a cop during a stop."

Wouldn't quite call it bullisht, but it can be difficult in many instances...lol But yeah, I agree with you on this one....*checks temp*...:lol:
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Wouldn't quite call it bullisht, but it can be difficult in many instances...lol But yeah, I agree with you on this one....*checks temp*...:lol:

:lol:

Aint no need to check your temps...you feeling just fine!! :emlaugh:
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

So this is why there are Officer Wilson's out here....I didn't realize black mobs were terrorizing the country like this :crazy:.

“White Girl Bleed A Lot: The Return of Racial Violence to America and How the Media Ignore Itâ€￾ <script src="http://player.ooyala.com/player.js?deepLinkEmbedCode=Zqa3NxZDqzU4iWvxHnYtBvq6GvOs01la&width=526&height=302&embedCode=Zqa3NxZDqzU4iWvxHnYtBvq6GvOs01la&video_pcode=9kcm06PtVGNZkFkXR2898mHnBha_"></script>
 
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Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

They shoot him to death THEN cuff him. The ****!

Here is a story about a man who stabbed his brother with a knife. The cops show up. The man is shot with non lethal rounds, tasered and THEN shot will real bullets. The man lived.

http://m.tulsaworld.com/news/crimew...5f9-a16b-5b13-96ba-045722b74924.html?mode=jqm

Our black men aren't tasered or hit with rubber bullets first. Always -- at least it seems that way -- have lethal force used as the only resort.
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

They shoot him to death THEN cuff him. The ****!

Here is a story about a man who stabbed his brother with a knife. The cops show up. The man is shot with non lethal rounds, tasered and THEN shot will real bullets. The man lived.

http://m.tulsaworld.com/news/crimew...5f9-a16b-5b13-96ba-045722b74924.html?mode=jqm

Our black men aren't tasered or hit with rubber bullets first. Always -- at least it seems that way -- have lethal force used as the only resort.

Training must be much better there than in and around St. Louis.

There is something wrong with these cops...the St Louis PD is going to try to sweep this under the rug IMO but those two guys have no bidness patrolling anyplace. Any fool could tell the dude had some mental issues. How you expect someone with mental issues to respond to verbal commands? Dude said shoot me, shoot me and they were like yes sir!

I did run across a vid of a black cop tasing a black kid (I assume) who was just standing there though...said kid was coming to help his sister or someone who was fighting. Key is...this cop wasn't trying to end the kid's life.

<script height="349px" width="615px" src="http://player.ooyala.com/iframe.js#pbid=3c1df42a0ea4920b9489cfaaf8aec88&ec=syZmRxbzoUUOhkT9aFCfF_8vivMHGB9n"></script>
 
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Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

s phi s...can you break this video down (I'll just post a link) of the guy being shot in St Louis? Justified?

http://crooksandliars.com/2014/08/video-north-st-louis-shooting-tells

This one appears somewhat tricky. At the end of the day, I believe the officers can articulate an immediate threat to their safety by the man advancing on the with a knife. The only caveat I can see is that he never appears to raise the knife.....YET, he is in close enough proximity to launch an attack with the knife. There are more ways to use edge weapons other than the downward stabbing motion that we are familiar with through television.

As far as your question Kendrick....it really isn't much of a question. You have proven time and again that you think with your emotions and have no basis of fact and/or reality in your rants. A taser is not an appropriate response when faced with a deadly weapon, especially in that proximity. A knife, in that proximity, is a lethal weapon. If one of those 2 darts misses on the taser (btw, the max range is about 35 feet), that person continues to advance. Then you have to transition to your next option. You don't have that kind of time.

Stick to your day job, or at least do some real research before you just post what should be done....Better yet, strap up and ride along and see how YOU react when you don't have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight...when you have a split second to make a decision that could save or cost your life or that of someone who has nothing to do with the incident.
 
As for the justification question, I think it is what is commonly called a 'good shoot', meaning simply the use of force in and of itself was justified. Again, as in the other case, the question each of them will have to answer which ultimately determines whether everything here is legal and within department policy is what each of those officers thought and perceived at each pull of the trigger.

BTW, mentally ill people hurt and kill people too...
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Bottom line is if you pull a weapon on a police officer, be ready to die. These folks are trying to go home to their families at night just like you. I don't feel sorry for people who flash weapons at officers or trying to hurt someone. Now a unarmed killing is totally different. Micheal Brown was wrong if he robbed that store, and if that cop killed him unarmed if Brown didn't attempt to charge him, the cop deserves to go to prison.
 

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Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Bottom line is if you pull a weapon on a police officer, be ready to die. These folks are trying to go home to their families at night just like you. I don't feel sorry for people who flash weapons at officers or trying to hurt someone. Now a unarmed killing is totally different. Micheal Brown was wrong if he robbed that store, and if that cop killed him unarmed if Brown didn't attempt to charge him, the cop deserves to go to prison.

Glad somebody gets it...
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Kendrick, you tripping thinking that cops are going to try to taser a cat coming at them with a knife. Pulling a weapon on a person legally authorized to use a gun is a death wish.
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Matter of fact, Kendrick, watch that video I posted in the link, and then come back to me with that taser talk...What would YOU have done?
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

This one appears somewhat tricky. At the end of the day, I believe the officers can articulate an immediate threat to their safety by the man advancing on the with a knife. The only caveat I can see is that he never appears to raise the knife.....YET, he is in close enough proximity to launch an attack with the knife. There are more ways to use edge weapons other than the downward stabbing motion that we are familiar with through television.

As far as your question Kendrick....it really isn't much of a question. You have proven time and again that you think with your emotions and have no basis of fact and/or reality in your rants. A taser is not an appropriate response when faced with a deadly weapon, especially in that proximity. A knife, in that proximity, is a lethal weapon. If one of those 2 darts misses on the taser (btw, the max range is about 35 feet), that person continues to advance. Then you have to transition to your next option. You don't have that kind of time.

Stick to your day job, or at least do some real research before you just post what should be done....Better yet, strap up and ride along and see how YOU react when you don't have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight...when you have a split second to make a decision that could save or cost your life or that of someone who has nothing to do with the incident.

I've actually ridden along with cops before as part of my day job.

Anytime someone has had a criticism of police work, you've always responded with people are only making assessments based on emotions. I get it. You're a cop and are gonna defend the profession. But that doesn't mean we, as a public who helps fund the police work you and others do and have to abide by law, can't raise valid questions or concerns.

Why in one case a guy with a knife gets tasered or non lethal round shot at him as he's approaching the police, but this cat in STL has deadly force used against him first?

Just based on the video presented here, I didn't think those cops had to shoot the guy with lethal rounds first.

It seems that it just doesn't matter if some folks are armed or not they're gonna get blown away. Like it or not that is what the public is gonna believe based on years of cases where cops have killed citizens who were seemingly non threats at the times of their deaths.

It might be unfair to view the cops through a jaundice eye, but man, cases like these don't help.
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Did you watch the video I posted in the link? It has nothing to do with defending the profession, because there are some in the profession who are not worth defending, and they are despised within the ranks just as much as by the general public. And no, anytime people make criticisms, I don't say it's based on emotion, unless.....wait for it.....it is not based in any sound research, based in any type of fact, or any type of generally accepted practice. Then it is based on emotion. When you ask why a dude advancing on police with a knife wasn't tased because you saw it happen somewhere else in a situation that was likely very different, that is emotion. The calls to arrest ANYONE without due process and a complete investigation is based on, guess what...EMOTION.

I am the biggest proponent of community based policing that there is. I believe it works. I also believe there are times that the police have to be the police, and now that camera phones allow you to see the difficult decisions we have to make in a split second that you sit back and dissect frame by frame, you think the job is all black and white....
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Matter of fact, Kendrick, watch that video I posted in the link, and then come back to me with that taser talk...What would YOU have done?

That situation in the video ain't the same as the STL case. First, those cops in Texas negotiated with that cat for a minute. Then they tasered him before shooting him when he confronted an officer with the knife. That's understandable.

In the STL case, the cops lied that, that man had the knife above his head as he approached them. In the video, he actually walks toward the cops once screaming shoot him. The he walks up on a ledge, back down a small hill and the he's shot.

It's disputable where he was actually in the process of confronting those cops.
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

That situation in the video ain't the same as the STL case. First, those cops in Texas negotiated with that cat for a minute. Then they tasered him before shooting him when he confronted an officer with the knife. That's understandable.

In the STL case, the cops lied that, that man had the knife above his head as he approached them. In the video, he actually walks toward the cops once screaming shoot him. The he walks up on a ledge, back down a small hill and the he's shot.

It's disputable where he was actually in the process of confronting those cops.

Dude you are hopeless...I guess you think the only way you can be stabbed is in a downward motion.

And just a few posts ago, you said they should have tasered the dude (as he was advancing on them with a knife in his hand in ANY position). Well how many times was the dude in my vid tased? And what did he do AFTER he was tased? Was he closer or farther away than the dude in STL? How much negotiating did they do? They handled the situation the SAME WAY you said the guys in STL should have...Don't backtrack now...
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Did you watch the video I posted in the link? It has nothing to do with defending the profession, because there are some in the profession who are not worth defending, and they are despised within the ranks just as much as by the general public. And no, anytime people make criticisms, I don't say it's based on emotion, unless.....wait for it.....it is not based in any sound research, based in any type of fact, or any type of generally accepted practice. Then it is based on emotion. When you ask why a dude advancing on police with a knife wasn't tased because you saw it happen somewhere else in a situation that was likely very different, that is emotion. The calls to arrest ANYONE without due process and a complete investigation is based on, guess what...EMOTION.

I am the biggest proponent of community based policing that there is. I believe it works. I also believe there are times that the police have to be the police, and now that camera phones allow you to see the difficult decisions we have to make in a split second that you sit back and dissect frame by frame, you think the job is all black and white....

Honestly how is the public supposed to react when we've been conditioned, based on some well-documented (or antidotal accounts) unfortunate wrongdoings by police, to not trust LEO?

How do we empathize with LEO when we see, read about and personally experience or impacted by police misconduct?

I know we don't have all the information. I know we aren't the ones placed in those situations of having to make those decisions. And I know most cops do things by the book. But, there have been far too many cases of tragedy happening.
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Honestly how is the public supposed to react when we've been conditioned, based on some well-documented (or antidotal accounts) unfortunate wrongdoings by police, to not trust LEO?

How do we empathize with LEO when we see, read about and personally experience or impacted by police misconduct?

I know we don't have all the information. I know we aren't the ones placed in those situations of having to make those decisions. And I know most cops do things by the book. But, there have been far too many cases of tragedy happening.

And for every ONE of those incidents, how many THOUSANDS of interactions take place on a DAILY basis that don't result in anything CLOSE. If I am acting like a true cop, you DEFINITELY are truly acting like the media, being sensational instead of rational.
 
Re: Vet Cop: 'If You Don't Want To Get Shot,'Shut Up Even If We're Violating Your rig

Dude you are hopeless...I guess you think the only way you can be stabbed is in a downward motion.

And just a few posts ago, you said they should have tasered the dude (as he was advancing on them with a knife in his hand in ANY position). Well how many times was the dude in my vid tased? And what did he do AFTER he was tased? Was he closer or farther away than the dude in STL? How much negotiating did they do? They handled the situation the SAME WAY you said the guys in STL should have...Don't backtrack now...

In the Texas case, the victim actually lunged through the door at the officer with the knife in his hand.

I didn't see that kid in STL lunge, or run up on those cops. He was walking with the knife at his side.
 
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