University Leveled Music.
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PsychoJag
We Run The SWAC
Originally posted by ShyLadyTiger
Please show me where I specifically called out any school's program, PsychoJag. Not once did I say SU, ASU, MVSU or anybody. The thread was titled, "University Leveled Music, ". Calm down, read and realize that we were speaking of the betterment of ALL Black College Bands, including JSU if that makes you feel better for me to say that. *closet cleaned*
I explained in my earlier post that when I marched at JSU, we were focused more on crisp, clean sounds and precision marching. I am a product of the early 80's Boom(Haughton) and I can pretty well see the difference between now and then. But just because the leadership has changed does not mean the musicality should. I don't think that everyone who says, "we blew ya'll out" is speaking in terms of musicality. There are those, including those in YOUR elite program that are also bragging on the fact that they were louder. I appreciate forums such as this that you can come and have a mature dialect about the future of SWAC music programs. And hopefully someone who believes that being the loudest band in the land will read this and understand that teaching true musicianship will only help to strengthen all Black schools. This topic is very interesting and should not have turned into the 'we blew ya'll arses out war!' Kinda immature, I mean marching in a college band is an ADVENTURE, not a JOB! PsychoJag, by stating that JSU has gone out of it's original mode to get louder and louder, you just proved the point of this thread. But JSU is not the only band guilty of this offense! :shame:
Legend35,
If you are a band director or plan on becoming one, I can pretty much say that your program will be/or is one that will teach musicality, discipline, and respect for other programs.
ShyLadyTiger
JSU 81-84
:wavey:
Now this post I can respect.:tup: It is true. Very true.
Legend35
Active Member
Thank you for your compliment and encouragement. There are times when we feel that no one around us understand nor can relate to what we are trying to accomplish in our lives. That's in all walks of life. It is good for me to know that I am not alone in my convictions.Originally posted by ShyLadyTiger
Legend35,
If you are a band director or plan on becoming one, I can pretty much say that your program will be/or is one that will teach musicality, discipline, and respect for other programs.
ShyLadyTiger
JSU 81-84
:wavey:
Thank You :blush:
Legend35
Active Member
Are you talking about the music white schools are playing compared to what we are playing?
When I hear rap all they are doing is sampling from mainly hits of the 70's. I also hear a lot of melodic runs borrowed from classical music ,runs inwhich a woodwind instrument can handle well. Now maybe a brass instrument can handle it I really don't know but student writters don't put those type of runs on the score causing the music to sound plain with holes. Example: Destiny's Child's Survivor.
s phi s
The One Man Band
I have seen this trend develop as well. Actually, to be totally honest, I fell prey to this trend at one point in time. But as I furthered my education in music, I was taught that volume is fine, but you should never sacrifice quality for it. If you can play loud and control it, then hey, more power to you. But you will NOT be the only one heard in the band. If you can't hum another instrument's part with reasonable proficiency, then you are playing too loud and out of control.
As far as the arranging goes, I have fallen victim also. But anyone you ask will tell you that I will not sacrifice the integrity of the music that I arrange. Case in point...Someone mentioned Survivor. There are some hella sustained runs in the tune. Sometimes I tend to break the runs up between instriments, kind of a question and answer type. It forces the players to really lock down their part so it will fit with the other parts to make a coherent whole. I feel that instrumentalists often get into a comfort zone with a lot of marching music. It is usually watered down and so easy to play that the only way they feel they can make it interesting is to try to bend the bell of the horn vack while they play it.
But I will say this...A program is a reflection of the leadership of the program. If the leaders (whether it be directors, section leaders, drum majors, or just upperclassmen with an understanding) don't intervene and address these issues as they happen and on a consistant basis, the band will not think twice about doing it.
Just my $3.57...
As far as the arranging goes, I have fallen victim also. But anyone you ask will tell you that I will not sacrifice the integrity of the music that I arrange. Case in point...Someone mentioned Survivor. There are some hella sustained runs in the tune. Sometimes I tend to break the runs up between instriments, kind of a question and answer type. It forces the players to really lock down their part so it will fit with the other parts to make a coherent whole. I feel that instrumentalists often get into a comfort zone with a lot of marching music. It is usually watered down and so easy to play that the only way they feel they can make it interesting is to try to bend the bell of the horn vack while they play it.
But I will say this...A program is a reflection of the leadership of the program. If the leaders (whether it be directors, section leaders, drum majors, or just upperclassmen with an understanding) don't intervene and address these issues as they happen and on a consistant basis, the band will not think twice about doing it.
Just my $3.57...
QUOTE]Originally posted by s phi s
But I will say this...A program is a reflection of the leadership of the program. If the leaders (whether it be directors, section leaders, drum majors, or just upperclassmen with an understanding) don't intervene and address these issues as they happen and on a consistant basis, the band will not think twice about doing it.
Just my $3.57... [/QUOTE]
:bowdown: This is an excellent observation! Junior and High school band members need to be aware that there is more to coming into a College program than just volume. They need to be able to sight read, have controlled tone, and many other qualities that will allow them to participate on the college level. Present band members need to step up and assure that these kids reason for playing are more that just to blow on someone. It doesn't take but one bad apple to ruin a whole section with his/her showcasing. I would much rather be remembered for sounding well than how loud I sound. :swink:
Legend35,
Don't give up on your quest! :wavey:
But I will say this...A program is a reflection of the leadership of the program. If the leaders (whether it be directors, section leaders, drum majors, or just upperclassmen with an understanding) don't intervene and address these issues as they happen and on a consistant basis, the band will not think twice about doing it.
Just my $3.57... [/QUOTE]
:bowdown: This is an excellent observation! Junior and High school band members need to be aware that there is more to coming into a College program than just volume. They need to be able to sight read, have controlled tone, and many other qualities that will allow them to participate on the college level. Present band members need to step up and assure that these kids reason for playing are more that just to blow on someone. It doesn't take but one bad apple to ruin a whole section with his/her showcasing. I would much rather be remembered for sounding well than how loud I sound. :swink:
Legend35,
Don't give up on your quest! :wavey:
s phi s
The One Man Band
We live in the band tape generation. These kids nowadays study the tapes of various programs. When they hear the volume, they don't realize EXACTLY what it takes to get it there, so they try to get there however they can in junior high and high school. They overblow, splat tones, and just sound sloppy in general. They don't learn the concepts of playing together.
My high school band director instilled something in me when I made drum major that I live by to this day. Correct mistakes before they become problems. Correct problems before they become habits. I often see a lot of stuff slide by because the simplest things are overlooked. Then those simple errors become learned behaviour. Often times I hear, "Well we are gonna teach the basic concept now and nitpick later." What they don't realize is the best time to nitpick is WHEN you learn. Otherwise they are learning mistakes, and they will be harder to undo in the long run.
I could go all day on this topic....(How did I miss it for so long??)
My high school band director instilled something in me when I made drum major that I live by to this day. Correct mistakes before they become problems. Correct problems before they become habits. I often see a lot of stuff slide by because the simplest things are overlooked. Then those simple errors become learned behaviour. Often times I hear, "Well we are gonna teach the basic concept now and nitpick later." What they don't realize is the best time to nitpick is WHEN you learn. Otherwise they are learning mistakes, and they will be harder to undo in the long run.
I could go all day on this topic....(How did I miss it for so long??)
dacontinent
Preacher
It could be, but I really don't think that to be the challenge in most cases. I believe that most arrangers have a certain style and will select tunes that they feel will incoporate that style well.
For instance, I am a gospel guy. Those are the tunes that I do. There are a lot of great gospel tunes that I enjoy but simply would not voice well for marching band. I will be working on Kirk Franklin's HOSANNA this summer and find it a very musical tune, as is Fred Hammond's LORD OF THE HARVEST. However, Kirk's REVOLUTION is a great hip-hop tune that I would not even touch for marching band...but I have heard others try.
I have yet to hear a rap tune that voices well as an instumental and I have heard just about everything that has been tried. It is my PERSONAL conclusion that the genre has no business in marching band...but people still do it, and that is fine for them because they apparently like it.
My position is simple: The music and developing musicians comes first; the crowd comes later. Yes, I could be the Atlanta A&T BD in DRUMLINE (the movie)...and we would play all of the classics and battle the other schools into the ground with them...and play woodwind features in the stands and on the field...and we would play tunes with full pit percussion...and Latin, Broadway, and movie tunes...and then we would play a few pop, jazz, and old-skool tunes just to put some icing on the cake.
Don't get me started.
Legend35
Active Member
One thing is for sure, I would love to see that battle!
Speaking on you position, there is a flip side I think to that coin. The administration might want you to fill the stands with fans . The fans might not understand the message in your music even though you are looking out for the betterment of your students by playing good, solid and challenging music. Speaking only on Grambling because I'm a member, if we stood still and played, the band director will be in the unemployment line because we have a TRADITION of non-stop playing and dancing. I too can seriuosly identify with that director in Drumline. He was enjoying his band but loosing the crowd. To try and make a long story short, A baby has to learn to crawl before he can walk -- walk before he can run. It is my beliefs that I would have to find a common ground. Yes, I will give them all the latest comercial tunes that I feel is Morally Exceptable for a college game. Slowly but surely I will bring the fans to the level I think a university band should be in terms of different types of American Music and I would do this in the comfines of their own tradition. I believe students regardless of social and environmental backgrounds should graduate from college more well rounded than when he came here. I want my students to know , understand and appreciate more than music from their own upbringing.
Legend35,
Non-stop playing and dancing. How I remember it well. :nod:
This is the one element that we hated to give up when the director in 1984 took over the leadership. Before 1984, JSU was also known for constant playing, dancing and never putting down their instruments. I, among many others, was not happy with this type of showmanship, but being that I truly enjoyed the Boom, I adapted in my last year. You would have white schools amazed at how we were able to play, dance and still keep that quality sound without ever dropping our horns. :nod: :swink:
dacontinent
Preacher
I think your position and approach are dead on target. Go get it done quickly. Fix this thing and make it something we can all be proud of.
I have said this before: If HBCU bands are to ever get the recognition that they truly deserve, we have to do what "we" to well and what "they" do better than they do.
Legend35
Active Member
Yes,...but right now my problem is how? There are a lot of politics involved and there are people who are in a position to make things happen stuck in their ways. A lot of politics and red tape. Well, if history has shown me anything it has shown me that everything must change and that nothing stays the same. You have to adjust to the changes in the wind or get left behind.
dacontinent
Preacher
I wise bishop once told me that these kinds of things often have to wait until the patriarchs die. What you have to do is lay groundwork with people of like minds in order to make the transition smoother.
Legend35
Active Member
I want to start from ground zero (Jr. High) I love Grambling but, I can never see myself a Band Master here. The band itself is an institution. If I took this job I would have to clean out a lot of people just to get my objectives started off right. I know I will have to answer to people which will have me agreeing to do some stupid stuff. These people mind you haven't a clue as to what it takes to run a marching band. No, I'm just a sponge here soaking up all of the experience from these gifted directors. We have good directors here that go out of their way to help students. They do the best they can with the little they have to work with. So, until then I'm polishing up for my day and God forbid I become a B.M. in the SWAC. Grambling will be in trouble because I know what Grambling is going to do and they won't know how I'll be coming. It's every music major's dream to come back with a band to challenge Grambling. Competition is healthy but I will take care of business with lots of respect and musical sportsmanship.
Legend35
Active Member
Yeah, those runs are nothing to play with but, it can be done. That is not really a field tune to me but, it would sound good for stand music. I like hearing those type of melodies in music. It's more challenging and adds more color to something that sounds kind of plain. Less holes.
solophone96
New Member
Well i blame it all on the high school programs... I remember my first day at band camp way back in '91 a junior in my section came up to me and asked if i could blow. Being that i went to a "white" junior high school my response was yes i can play very well... followed by a brief run down of my musical resume. His response was ... Naw' man I said can you "BLOW". From that point on my mind was warped. I love balance and musicality as much as every one else but the fact still remains in the SWAC sound is a huge factor. This year we went to see TnSU... they loved our style... and we liked thiers. But I know every one in that stadium felt we waxed that arse. I'll be the first to say at this point our band probably couldn't touch some of there arangments... but that not to say ours aren't good. Nobody in the SWAC has ever or will ever have the musicality you all speak of. Thats just not what people want to see or hear. Lets all remember that the marching band is just one performance group in your musical program. Just because arrangements aren't complicated does not mean the musicians in your program can't play complicated music. Lets just all agree in the SWAC we have a different approch...
Oh yeah... i just wondered, do songs like "Contagious"; "Tyrone"; and "Hate me Now" fall in the catagory of college level music?
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Magnificent Mellow!!!!!!!!!! Phone!!!!
Oh yeah... i just wondered, do songs like "Contagious"; "Tyrone"; and "Hate me Now" fall in the catagory of college level music?
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Magnificent Mellow!!!!!!!!!! Phone!!!!
dacontinent
Preacher
Sorry. Simply not true. There have been bands in the SWAC that have the kind of musicality of which we speak. I have heard it from JSU, SU, and GSU years ago. You are correct in that the general public probably could not care less about refining the musicality...but musicians MUST. Otherwise, there is not much to separate us from the general public. When that happens, the artistry is lost and so is our value.
Unfortunately, the SWAC does have a different approach, and it is the WRONG approach for our students. Certainly you don't support perpetuating the "warping" of minds in the way that you describe. Someone has to be willing to stand up and make a difference.
Dance...but be musical. Play loudly...but me musical. Play the latest tunes...but be musical. Play soft (do I really mean that? YES!!!)...but be musical. DO ALL OF THE THINGS THAT THE PUBLIC LOVES AND PUTS THEIR BUTTS IN THE SEATS FOR...BUT BE MUSICAL!!!!
Are we clear?
A very untrue statement. You should view some old footage from late 70's and early/mid 80's of JSU, SU and GSU and listen to the musicality of bands from that era. The music then consisted of artists that used live horn sections, which made the writing of arrangements for college bands awesome.
Unless we incorporate true muscianship in the minds of upcoming musicians, the art form whe know as MUSIC will gradually become a thing of the past. :tup:
s phi s
The One Man Band
I'll have to agree with solo here (though I don't totally disagree with y'all....is that possible?). Those bands of the 70's and 80's sounded better than today's average band. But just as someone stated, the music they played then was more 'musical'. I guess you could say they were more marching band friendly. But those bands had some of the same musicality problems that bands face today. Now it's just glaringly obvious because bands are playing Nelly instead of EWF.
I believe that there will never be an orchestral sounding, completely balanced SWAC (or HBCU) band. Many strive for it, and some come close, but IMO, nobody will reach that lofty standard.
One must also remember that music is an art. And art is appreciated differently by different people.
I believe that there will never be an orchestral sounding, completely balanced SWAC (or HBCU) band. Many strive for it, and some come close, but IMO, nobody will reach that lofty standard.
One must also remember that music is an art. And art is appreciated differently by different people.
solophone96
New Member
i don't know how old some of ya'll are, but there aren't to many tapes floating around of bands in the seventies. Mabey because I hail from one the more "musical" bands in the SWAC my idea of watered down music is different than most. As far as selection... you show up at every game to entertain while maintaining the integrity of your program. you can't play ol' school funk the whole game and expect a crowd response. Its a new era. you speak of the bands in the 80's and 70's playing more instrumental songs, but you have to realize that music was on the radio at the time. This whole argument sounds like one of my dads high school buddies with a curl and cowboy boots talking about how much we young cats don't know about music.
I agree we have to maintain a certain level of musicianship but we also have to entertain our crowd. JSU plays great marches, SU jams the hell out of Earth, Wind & Fire ( and other ol' school greats), PV plays jazz and redeculous concert numbers, GSU... I've yet to see anything notable but mabey i should check out some of my dads reel to reels.... Anyway i don't think a lack of musicianship is the to blame for the decline in the quality of SWAC bands... I thnk its the lack of discipline, but thats a whole other argument.
I agree we have to maintain a certain level of musicianship but we also have to entertain our crowd. JSU plays great marches, SU jams the hell out of Earth, Wind & Fire ( and other ol' school greats), PV plays jazz and redeculous concert numbers, GSU... I've yet to see anything notable but mabey i should check out some of my dads reel to reels.... Anyway i don't think a lack of musicianship is the to blame for the decline in the quality of SWAC bands... I thnk its the lack of discipline, but thats a whole other argument.
Solo,
I have tapes from the late 70's because I was/am interested in JSU's program before I arrived there. You can't know where you're going until you know where you've been. JSU had a program before I came and I took the time to research how the program executed drills and performed music from previous days. Plus they are on VHS. :swink:
Why is that ol' school funk is still being played at the games now?
Seems to me, every game I go to I hear the same arrangements from when I played in the band. And the response is still the same. Case in point, Black and Blues was a 1983 selection for JSU and 20 years later, it is still getting the same response it did then. Music books previously changed every season and there was no going back 10 years to make a music book. But, like I stated before, the variety of music was greater then.
I don't quite understand the statement that music was on the radio then. But, the argument that discipline is the reason behind alot of the problems with SWAC bands, then I agree. But TRUE MUSCIANSHIP begins with discipline. I would much rather have a person who is willing to learn and show respect than a person who can play the hell out of a instrument and not care about music.
Just my $2.84.... worth
I have tapes from the late 70's because I was/am interested in JSU's program before I arrived there. You can't know where you're going until you know where you've been. JSU had a program before I came and I took the time to research how the program executed drills and performed music from previous days. Plus they are on VHS. :swink:
Why is that ol' school funk is still being played at the games now?
Seems to me, every game I go to I hear the same arrangements from when I played in the band. And the response is still the same. Case in point, Black and Blues was a 1983 selection for JSU and 20 years later, it is still getting the same response it did then. Music books previously changed every season and there was no going back 10 years to make a music book. But, like I stated before, the variety of music was greater then.
I don't quite understand the statement that music was on the radio then.
But, the argument that discipline is the reason behind alot of the problems with SWAC bands, then I agree. But TRUE MUSCIANSHIP begins with discipline. I would much rather have a person who is willing to learn and show respect than a person who can play the hell out of a instrument and not care about music. Just my $2.84.... worth
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