Just Curious...

[Blacknbengal]

Docmump, believe me. It is a hurting feeling when you put so much into a relationship and for it to end like that. I can see if I did not want to go to church or anything like that, but to be encouraging the issue of going to church, worshipping together, and the whole nine yards and to have your (supposely) significant other to say, "You go to your church and I'll go to mines. And dont you bother me about this issue anymore." :smh: :smh: :smh:

Then, you go to your church and hear people keep asking, "Where is your wife? Why dont she come to church with you? Are you two ok?" Many issues unsolved. I truly understand the "Unequally Yoke" scripture. I see why he talked about unequally yoke. It can bring pure H3LL into a relationship and have you two actually hatin each other if you are not strong.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

There is another "Misinterpeted" scripture "Equally Yoked". What does that mean to some of your guys? Does it mean, if you are Christians but worship in two seperate demonanations, can you all hookup as a couple? or if she has the faith and the man dont can they hookup as a couple?

Unfortunately, this scripture is applied to 'denominations' sometimes, even though I don't think it should be. I don't believe that this scripture was the original intent of God to be applied to denominations because no scriptural principle in the bible is based on man made denminations. Eqaully yoked is talking about christian vs non-christian, not your religion vs my religion.(shouldn't be anyway)

I'm engaged to be married on June 22nd, 2002 and my fiance has been raised Catholic her ENTIRE life along with her ENTIRE family. I myself go to a non-denominational church. Though things got ROUGH from time to time, we're together & she now comes with me every week to Lakewood Church and we both enjoy the service. We had A LOT OF OBSTABLES regarding the 'religion & equally yoked' stuff but God got us to get past all of that stuff. Now we practice 100% RELATIONSHIP with God/each other, 0% RELIGION with 'saints' and so we're able to overcome a lot of things that sometimes seperate the body of Christ.

 

[Blacknbengal]

Originally posted by nevaehinvesting


Unfortunately, this scripture is applied to 'denominations' sometimes, even though I don't think it should be. I don't believe that this scripture was the original intent of God to be applied to denominations because no scriptural principle in the bible is based on man made denminations. Eqaully yoked is talking about christian vs non-christian, not your religion vs my religion.(shouldn't be anyway)

You are totally right. But you do have some Christians that have beliefs in other things other than God. Are they really Christians? We can not say. There are people who call themselves Christians who do not believe in the true belief of Christ. Just a form of His belief. Its called Christendom. Its real! I mean, satan disguise himself as an angel of light. His children do the same by disguising themselves as Christians.

Not only Christians vs Non-Christians, but I believe in the beliefs of one vs beliefs of the other. Unequally yoke can go further than just Christians vs Non Christians.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

Not only Christians vs Non-Christians, but I believe in the beliefs of one vs beliefs of the other. Unequally yoke can go further than just Christians vs Non Christians.

I agree with you. I guess I hadn't looked at it like that,...I agree.

 

[H]

Blacknbengal

Those are a lot of questions. I will try to be brief.


I would like to know if every Church of Christ doctrines are the same.

- It should be, if they are teaching directly from the bible and have a grasp of the language and historical setting. I have learned that it depends on the educational level of the Preacher & Elders. I have visited and Preached at various churches and found out whenever I use or explain the scripture in Greek or Hebrew - people look confused.

============================================
What is your view on instruments in the church?

- I am glad you clarified "instrument" Instrumental music were not used in the early church.

Some people use the OT & David, as a foundation for using instrumental music. David lived under the OT Law of Moses, but Christians live under the law of Christ. Because, David did it does not make it right. David, took the wife of another man, had several wives. Is that right - no. When David, played his harp he was either celebrating a victory in war, in front of Saul, of soothing his soul. There is not a scripture in the OT that shows while David, was in the presence of God he played an instrument.

Some people say CoC, do not believe in music in the church. That is not true. We sing and sing and sing. Singing is a form of Music. Read Eph. 5:19., Col. 3:16, 1 Cor. 14:15.

==============================================
What is your view on the Holy Spirit in today's society?

- That?s a good question. Most people do not understand the attributes of the Holy Spirit and how he exists in world today.

I believe the Holy Spirit of God, is very active in the lives of individuals today.

==============================================
Do you believe that there are still Apostles in the world?

- No, The Apostle Paul was the last Apostle to live. There are people proclaim them to be an Apostle. But, according to Acts 1:21-26 -

The Qualifications of an Apostle

An apostle had to have the spiritual gift of apostleship. The gift was provided by Jesus Christ after His ascension into Heaven, Eph. 4:8-11.

The gift was imparted by the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, 1 Cor. 12:11; Acts 2.

The apostle received his gift and office by the sovereign decision of God the Father, 1 Cur. 1:1; 12:18; Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:1.

The apostle had to have been an eyewitness of the resurrected Lord, Acts 1:22; 1 Cor. 9:1.

The Credentials of an Apostle

An apostle was endowed with miraculous powers of miracles, Heb. 2:4; 2 Cor. 12:12.

An apostle had success in evangelism, 1 Cor. 9:2; 2 Cor. 3:1-3; Gal. 2:7-9.

An apostle had the capacity to suffer patiently, 2 Cor. 12:12.

Based on the qualification to be an Apostle, I would say there are no Apostles living today.
==============================================

Do you believe that Church of Christ is the only church and all others (such as Baptists, Methodist, Pentecostal, etc.) are not really part of Christ's church?

- Yes, because those names are not biblical as it is related to the church. The Church of Christ can trace its origin back to the day of Pentecost {33 A.D}. The C of C had been existence for nearly 600 years, before any church was founded. The next would be in 606 {Catholic - in Rome}, 1739 {Methodist in England}, 1899 {Pentecostal in Topeka KS}.

Jesus said upon this rock, I will build my Church. {MT. 28:16-20} Jesus Christ builds the true church by biblical definition. {Not man} just reading the language - you would note that Jesus, uses personal pronouns and future tense. But, he remains the builder.

=========================================
nevaehinvesting

"Blameless man? is a negative particle, meaning not apprehended, that couldn?t be laid hold of. A person that cannot be reprehended, not open to censure, irreproachable.

In other words, he must have a good reputation in community and among the congregation. Would you want me to be your preacher? If I had 10 children by 10 different women, not paying child support. Then on Sunday morning I am preaching about being a faithful husband and taking care of your children?

==
How long did it take you to learn the different languages H? I know at the most only 50 greek/hebrew words/name meanings so I'm far from fluent. Which language was the hardest to learn?
What school did you go to? I've heard that Dalls Seminary was a good one.

- Which was the hardest? Both.

The problem with Hebrew is "reading right to left" but you know the bible is read left to right. The original Hebrew alphabet consisted only of consonants {no vowels}. It?s nothing like the Hebrew that is spoken today.

Greek: the main problem with Greek is learning the difference between Classical and Koine Greek. The bible is written in Koine {Everyday Street Language}. One of the hardest parts understood the difference between the analytical and literal translation and the grammatical rendering of the text. I had to learn the Greek?s do not think like we do. They were very precise and logical thinkers. They uses tenses that was Aorist, Imperfect, Actual, Subjunctive, Conditional Clauses {1, 2, 3 and 4th Class}. If you know the Greek Alphabets, more than likely you can translate it into English.

I started studying Greek and Hebrew, while I was in the Military. I have been attending a Hebrew Class for five years that is being taught at the Jewish Community Center, by a Jewish Rabbi. This language is simple but complicated to learn. Because, it is a mixture of ancient Semitic languages. If you have take Latin ? then Greek should be easy.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

What about this?

1. NAMES
The Name of your 'assembled congregation' has nothing to do with getting you to heaven, or keeping you out.(I'd like to see that scripture) A group calling themselves "Church of Christ" is just a name/religion etc. If I went to a church that called themselves "Church of people going to heaven" or "Church of Jesus, Son of God" that wouldn't give any better shot at going to heaven than if I went to a church that called themselves 'Baptists', vice versus. Heaven depends on whether or not you have Jesus as your savior, not what title your religion adopts. Some Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist, Non-denominational, Catholic, etc are going to heaven, and some Baptist, Church of Christ, Methodist, Non-denominational, Catholic, etc are going to hell. Nothing to do with names, Everything to do with Jesus.

2. INSTRUMENTS
What did the dancing, singing, praising, instruments in the old testament have to do with Moses' law? Nothing, it had to do with the heart of the people doing it. God accepted instruments in the OT not because of the law, but because of His character(that's why He accepted instruments in heaven before the law was created) and He still accepts instruments today. Read about what's going on in heaven and what has gone on in heaven...you'll find THEY use instruments there in heaven. If it's fitting for Heaven, it's definitely fitting for earth! Why do some saints think that anyting before Matthew is irrelevant. I know we're not under the OT law anymore but the OT Law is just a fraction of the OT AND has nothig to do with God being against instruments today. Jesus, Paul, etc OFTEN refered to the OT while explaining how to live in the NT. ALL of God's Word is good today AND DOESN'T CHANGE.

Concerning instruments for worship/praise:
The requirement for worship in the New Testament is that you worship God "in Spirit and in Truth!" If you do that with singing, fine - instruments, fine - dancing, fine - as long as it's in "Spirit and in Truth." The difference between the OT and NT is that the OT literally wrote out every little rule and regulation for what you could and couldn't do. The NT doesn't do that. Instead of writing chapter after chapter of how to worship God and where to go to do it, the NT just says as long as you're doing it "In Spirit and in Truth" God accepts it. I know this because God accepts the worship and praise of the church that I go to every time we worship and praise Him together.(we sing, dance, have instruments) If it wasn't being done "In Spirit and in Truth" God wouldn't bless it. Since He DOES approve, He's blessed us at my church to take the Good News of Jesus Christ with our singing & instruemnts to all of this nation & probably 80% of the world AND PEOPLE ARE GETTING SAVED.

We're often waaaaaaaaaaaaay to literal as to what's literally in or literally not in the NT which is overkill sometimes.
QUESTION: Who can tell where in the NT that scripture thoroughly explains the digetive system? Nowhere??? Do you believe that you have a digestive system that God want you to use? Do you guys ever poo-poo? Does God have a problem with that? Can roaches be found in the NT? Don't tell me you haven't seen a roach the size of your wallet if went to one of these SWAC schools.


Here's REAL good questions..............
1. Where in the New Testament does God permit the Church of Ephesians to throw stones at the Church at Corinth for any reason?(especially based on "impefect" human understandings)
2. Where does God permit the Church of Phillipians to tell the church of Galatians that they're wrong for not being like the the Church of Phillipians?
3. What particular Church Assembly in the NT was ALWAYS right, and able to judge everyone else?
If these cases can't be found in the NT, and we're being so NT literal, why would any "church" practice these things today?

nevaehinvesting
p.s. question #3 is a good one

 

[H]

nevaehinvesting


Questions:

Who is throwing stones?

Where the Churches you mention - Baptist, Methodist, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc?

Does every person have a right to his / her own belief?

The church you attend was it founded according to bible scripture or did some man start it?

Do you believe in once saved always saved?

Do you believe a peraon can be morally right but religously wrong?

Are you saying we are all headed to the same place, regardless of what we practice and how we worship?

Do you believe good people of all churches churches are saved?

What must a person do to be saved?



John 14:24

God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Since you mention that particular scripture. Explain it. What spirit is he refering to {God's or Mans}. Explain what he means "in truth"

Warning do not take one verse and use it. Read the entire chapter John 14:24. Then explain why Jesus, made those statements concerning true worship.

"Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. "

A person can be zealously Religious but without God. A person can practice "religion" an still be wrong.


Are you saying - that a person can say and practice whatever they please and can be saved "going to heaven"?


Trust me you do not want to debate me about the Bible. Please do not proof text the scriptures.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

The church you attend was it founded according to bible scripture or did some man start it?

That's the "problem thinking" saints have today, LISTEN ...God isn't starting any new churches, H. That's impossible. There is now and always has been ONE CHURCH. The Lord used a man to build a building for the saints to gather in houston and add on to His already established church according to scripture and more & more people are representing for Jesus here in Houston every year. Praise God! You, being the bible scholar you are, know that God uses men/women to do His work on earth today just like he has through out the bible, H, but remember, MAN is not to be your focus, GOD is. GOD began the gathering of the saints at Lakewood Church in Houston and this city will never be the same because of what GOD has done.

Do you believe in once saved always saved?

Yep!

Are you saying we are all headed to the same place, regardless of what we practice and how we worship?

Nope! I'm saying that ALL of us who have accepted Jesus as our Saviour are going to the same place, regardless of whether or not we go to a gathering that calls themselves, "church of christ."

Do you believe a peraon can be morally right but religously wrong?

Yep! Religion changes from church building to church building so no one follows all religious rules. The good news, however, is that God is more focused on your Relationship then your Religion. Which one do y'all practice?

Do you believe good people of all churches churches are saved?

Nope! Refer to my second answer above, that's who is saved!(according to scripture)

Does every person have a right to his / her own belief?

Yep!

Where the Churches you mention - Baptist, Methodist, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc?

???

Who is throwing stones?

Not me hopefully! I apologize if I have.

What must a person do to be saved?

Saved......we have to be specific,
Justification = saved from the penalty of sin, past
Sanctification = saved from the power of sin, present
Glorification = saved from the pressence of sin, future
We'll break down ALL three soon enough.

Trust me you do not want to debate me about the Bible.

H, I used to be you, bruh. But one thing I've learned is that knowing the bible backward and forward will only take you so far. It's religiously impressive to people, but not to God. Heck, even the devil himself "knows" the scriptures. I bet He knows Greek, Hebrew, Latin etc... Heck, HE used to LIVE with God. What's the real difference between Satan, Christians, non-Christians? Not necessarily "who can quote the bible" but rather, who is living for God. It's about the fruit that you produce for Jesus & not about the scripture you can recite, contrary to popular religious belief. If you're out there everyday saving the world for Jesus by any means necessary, fine. If not, than even though someone knows Greek AND Hebrew, I'm not impressed, God's definitiely not impressed, and know who has Jesus will ever be intimidated by anyone. I see this as more of a Discussion, than a Debate.

nevaehinvesting

 

[Blacknbengal]

*Black sits back and watch debate as if watching a tennis match*

 

[Blacknbengal]

See, these where the issues that I had to deal with. Couldn't handle all that. I was like :eek2: because the girl wanted to marry me, but felt that I was going to h3ll because I had a "Baptist" tag on the end of my religion name.
I was like, "What? You gonna save me or something by bringing me to your church?" :sleeping:

 

[docmump]

Nice Post.

nevaehinvesting,
Nice Post. I even read it all. I was getting a little worried when I read H's post, but you brought us back to reality - God. As we say at Friendship, God is the audience and we are the participants.

But one thing I've learned is that knowing the bible backward and forward will only take you sly impressive to people, but not to God. Heck, even the devil himself "knows" the scriptures. I bet He knows Greek, Hebrew, Latin etc... Heck, HE used to LIVE with God. What's the real difference between Satan, Christians, non-Christians? Not necessarily "who can quote the bible" but rather, who is living for God. It's about the fruit that you produce for Jesus & not about the scripture you can recite, contrary to popular religious belief. If you're out there everyday saving the world for Jesus by any means necessary, fine. If not, than even though someone knows Greek AND Hebrew, I'm not impressed, God's definitiely not impressed, and know who has Jesus will ever be intimidated by anyone. I see this as more of a Discussion, than a Debate.

There was a saying when I was going up. "Even the Devil himself goes to church", And he does.

Great Post to both of you guys H and nevaehinvesting. I truly enjoy this Threat.

But the only thing i wanted to know is how you guys felt about female preachers.

 

[H]

Blacknbengal

I do not know why she or anyone else make that statement. If you have an opportunity read Revelation 20:11-15. People are going t be lost, regardless of what church they attend. That comes from old school teaching and not underding scripture.

To me this is healthy discussion.

nevaehinvesting

You, could never be like me. Think bibically not wordly.

What scripture supports the idea of once saved always saved. So based on your statement - understanding. A person can be saved - die while in sin and remained saved. The book of Galatians teaches different. Besides, what Jesus said in John 8:21 - 59 totally refutes your statement. The bible use Judas, as an example as one that was saved and lost his salvation. Also, there is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man was Jewish {God's Chosen People} and he ended up being lost in hell. How do you explain that?

Situation: I am saved and married. Tonight, I am going out, I met a woman and ended us at No Tell Hotel. While, having sex, I have a heart attact and die. Am I still saved. Now, based on your statement - I am still saved.


How can one accept Christ, refuse part of his teachings and reject the other part. And still be saved? That's like what Agrippa told Paul. "Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. Acts 28:26"


A person who "ACCEPTS JESUS" Christian, also have to accept "all" of his teachings. Yes or No.


Since you belief a person has a right to believe whatever they want. What scripture supports your answer. Are you saying as long as I accept Jesus, and ignore part of his teachings I am saved.? The Mormons, acknowledge / believe in Christ, are they saved. So are you saying a person can believe in whatever they want to and be saved.

Situation: I believe in Jesus, but I also believe in John Smith, Russell, Buddah and Zeus. Am I saved?

Explain Romans 16:16 "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you."

Does the bible say when and where the church will be founded? If so can the church you attend trace it's origin to that particular church?

"Where the Churches you mention - Baptist, Methodist, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc? " That's a easy question.

 

[Blacknbengal]

Originally posted by H
Blacknbengal

I do not know why she or anyone else make that statement. If you have an opportunity read Revelation 20:11-15. People are going t be lost, regardless of what church they attend. That comes from old school teaching and not underding scripture.

To me this is healthy discussion.

That is the same thing I was trying to explain, but some people only want to hear what benefit them.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

This IS a healthy discussion.

Situation: I am saved and married. Tonight, I am going out, I met a woman and ended us at No Tell Hotel. While, having sex, I have a heart attact and die. Am I still saved.

Saved(sanctification) Nope! Saved(justufication) Yep!
You, H, haven't asked for forgiveness for EVERY sin you've committed. You don't even KNOW of every sin you've committed. Jesus does. He died for them all, PAST, PRESENT & FUTURE.(even if you lie, then immediately have a heart attack)

How about this:
When the bible uses the word "saved" it's not always talking about how to get from earth to heaven(justification), sometimes it's talking about how to have heaven on earth(sanctification).
Look at who is using the word and how they're using it.

...real quick....
Justification, (saved from the penalty of sin)
when you look at a white light through a red lens the light looks red. When you look at a white light through a blue lens the light looks blue. Green lens, green etc.. That happens because the light takes on the color of the image placed directly in front of your eyes. When God looks at someone who's been justified, He's looking through the blood of Jesus so no longer does God see us as we are in our sinfullness, He sees His Son Jesus as He is in His holiness because of our FAITH(not works) in Him. That's what makes us justified. It's the WORK Jesus blood, not you thinking you can do it your imperfect little self.

Sanctification, (saved from the power of sin)
Jesus not only died to keep us out of Hell, He rose to keep Hell out of us. God never intended for someone to use Jesus to get to heaven, and then NOT use Him to keep them strong here on earth. Through santification(saved from the power of sin) we can experience a little bit of heaven even before we get there. We should obey.

When a person is Justified through Faith in Jesus, he/she is BORN into the family of God. You're God's child. The good news is that even through God has some BAD children, they're still His children. He has some children that 'drive Him crazy' so to speak & make him mad, but they're still His children. Once your child is BORN(by your own decision), regardless of they do good or bad, there's never an issue of them becoming unborn. You can loose your peace with God or damage your salvation(sanctification) but it never becomes an issue of your eternal salvation(justification).

learn the difference between sanctification & justification & Glorification and you'll understand the full issue of SALVATION. The bible uses the word "saved" in all of these ways.

How can I live "abundant life" or "in peace" while also in fear of constnatly gaining and loosing my salvation because I sinned, got hit by a car before I ask for forgiveness, and was eternally lost? If that were the case than we would constantly be getting saved, loosing it, getting saved agian then loosing it, getting saved again, then loosing it, all according to our performance. What an unfruitful way to live because ALL sin on a regular basis.

Do we get saved by Jesus, then STAY saved by OUR works? The truth is, if it were 'on us' to get justified, we'd die and go to hell because it's takes a perfect Jesus to do that for us. If it were 'on us' to keep ourselves justified, we'd die and go to hell because it takes a perfect Jesus to do that for us also. If YOU could live good enough to KEEP yourself justified, YOU could live good enough to GET yourself justified in the first place because BOTH require the same sacrafice.(Jesus)

NONE of us really impress God by the way we live because He's measuring it against "holiness". We need Jesus. We have Jesus.
I don't agree with this statement:
"You get Saved(justified) by grace, BUT you stay
saved(justified) by WORKS." ....The same Grace that gets you in, keeps you in.

Works = Saved(santification) = James 2:14 = obeying God = etc on earth
Faith = Saved(justification) = John 3:16, Roman 4:4,5 = faith alone in the "FINISHED WORK" of Jesus Christ = heaven

Situation: I believe in Jesus, but I also believe in John Smith, Russell, Buddah and Zeus. Am I saved?

You can't have to masters. You'll love only ONE.

To answer the rest of your questions,
1) you can't accept Jesus and refuse His teaching, BUTTTTT IFFFFFFF YOU DO SIN Jesus has ALREADY taken care of that when HE died.
2) I said a person has a right to beieve what they want, I didn't say that "they were right" I said "they have a right." no scripture necessary.

"Where the Churches you mention - Baptist, Methodist, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc? " That's a easy question.

Please make this into a complete sentence/thought and I'll answer, easily. Are you saying "where are they?" or what?

Does the bible say when and where the church will be founded? If so can the church you attend trace it's origin to that particular church?

Of course, Lakewood was predestined by God before the foundations of the earth was laid to be one of the many lights in Houston that would represent Jesus. That's really our orgin, ask God, He'll tell ya'.
(predestination is an awesome subject in the bible)
I should be clear when I say this: "No one saved under the blood of JESUS can ever loose, give away, or have their Justification taken away."-Romans 8:38

Question: H, do you really believe that you or anybody else is living good enough right now to keep YOURSELF Saved? Have you sinned lately? Are you saved right now? Were you saved all day yesterday?

Explain Romans 16:16 "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you."

What is there to explain that you don't understand? I know you're trippin of the fact that it is says, "church of christ."

I took the time to go to bible schools...

By the way H, you owe me tuition money for allowing you into the neavehinvesting school of biblical studies.

neavehinvesting,
sorry i don't have my bible at work, this was still off the chain though

 

[nevaehinvesting]

Situation: I am saved and married. Tonight, I am going out, I met a woman and ended us at No Tell Hotel. While, having sex, I have a heart attact and die. Am I still saved.

Rmember the "looking through the blood analogy" in the previous post. God knew that you would sleep with that woman Waaaaaaaaaaaay before you did it. He wasn't surprised just like He's not surprised when you, H, and I do our little sins in life. The good news is that knowing that the guy would commit adultery ahead of time, God sent His Son Jesus to die for the adultery committed in 2002, 2000 yrs ago. That's our All-Knowing God at work. The blood of Jesus covered that sin as it does other sins you and I commit. Through the blood us Jesus, that young man in the example could still go to heaven, not based on his performance, but rather on Jesus' performance FOR on that man's behalf. Yes we accept Jesus teachings when we accept him but that doesn't mean that we won't ever sin, which goes against his teaching. Think about the last you sinned, does that mean you've rejected Jesus teaching, or does that mean you're battling the flesh like the rest of us?

Very Practical......
Jesus = sins fully taken care of, past present future
No Jesus = sins not taken care of

 

[H]

Now that I am home - I have a little time to answer you questions.

You said a person has a right to believe what ever they want. Legally speaking, we have a right to believe any doctrine. Scriptually speaking, we do not have the right to believe anything regiously except the truth revealed in the Bible (2 Thess. 2:12, 13) Jesus, said "And know the truth and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). If you kmow the truth. The the truth must not only be loved and learned , but it must also be obeyed (1 Peter 1:22)

Since you feel that a person can believe whatever they want. Instead of using our opinions, let the bible speak and use bible examples. Lets take a brief walk through the bible, with people of the same opinion. The story of Cain and Abel - Read {Gen. 4:3-5; Heb. 11:4} Although God had taught them (Cain & Abel) HOW to worship and what kind of sacrifice to offer, Cain did not follow God's instructions. He worshipped by

opinion, his belief, his standards and idea.

Abel worshipped by faith as God had commanded. Therefore, God accepted Abel's sacrifice and rejected Cain's.

Naaman, In 2 Kings 5:1-14. Wanted to follow his ownideas instead of the prophet of God, but he could not and be healed of his leprosy. The instructions was simple. He thought that the prophet would do something spectacular. Furthermore, he wanted to select his own river in which to dip, but he did not have the right to do this.

The Apostle Paul, thought he had the right to be a Pharisee, oppose Christ and to fight Christanity. He later said " {Read Acts 26:9,10, 23:1} Paul, did not have the right to his own belief. He had to learn and obey the truth to be saved {Acts 22:16}

Application: Cain, Naaman and Paul did not have the right to their own belief. Therefore, a Christian, must give up their own beliefs and follow those that are given by Christ.

Why? Because Christ has the right to issue, set the example, decree or standards. Why? God, gave him all authority. {Mt. 28:18} All authority means that he set the terms for being saved or salvation {Heb. 5:9} If every person has a right to his ownbelief, then the will of God is ruled out, nd the terms of pardon, salvation, justification, redemption, imputation, conversion, remission, propituation and everything is written can be ignored. Therefore, it makes man his own savior.

Those who contend that every person has a right to his own belief usually do so in an effort to justify their acceptance and rejection of certain scriptures and Christ. Meaning they do not want to comply with the terms Christ, issued.

Salvation: "Saved"

All you stated sounded good. But, lets keep it in the bible and leave opinions outside. There are two facts to establish. 1, God, established and set the standards for being saved. 2, There are certain words that must be understood, whenever you talk about salvation. I see that you mention two out of fifteen. Here is the list: conversion, subsitution, reconcilliation, propituation, remission, redemption, regeneration, imputation, adoption, supplication, justification, sanctification, glorification, preservation and origination.

You, stated that Christ died for past, present and future sins. Now, how can one ask for forgiveness when a sin has not been commited. If Christ, has already forgiven me of a sin before I commitmet it. Explain why did Paul write this to the Church at Rome {6:1,2}

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? "

If a person is going to be saved they have to be sanctified.

To Sanctify, means to seperate of set apart for God. It is the process of setting apart of state of being set apart for God. Even the Hebrews, in OT were Sanctified. Why, would God have a change of heart not to Sanctify Christians, which is His chosen people?

This is how Sanctification works:

God sanctifies man, Christ sanctifies the Church {2 Thess 2:13}, The Holy Spirit Sanctifies the believer {1 Peter 1:2, 2 Thess. 2:13}, Believers are sanctified throught the blood {Heb 13:12}, We are sanctified through the truth, the word of God {John 17:17}

So, the wors cleanses us from the presence of sin, seperates us from it and set us apart for God. Based onthe above scriptures and many more. It proves that a person has to be sanctified. You can not be JUSTIFIED BEFORE YOU ARE SANCTIFIED.

I for got to mention, sanctification by God's spirit make us joint heirs with God's Son. {Romans 8:2 - 18}

Heaven on Earth? That's a good one. I understand scripture - the problem is you do not know how to rightly divide the word of truth.

Lakewood was Predestine by God? Scripture and Verse Please.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

Good lesson on worship.

Lakewood was Predestine by God? Scripture and Verse Please.

Romans 8:29 / Eph 4:11 "In Him we have obtained an inheritance, being presdestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His Will."
Our All-Knowing God has had a plan for His people even before we were born, just like He told Jeremiah. Part of that plan was to establish Lakewood Church in Houston because we're just crazy enough to beleve that we can save the entire world through the message of Jesus Christ. God allowed us to be in the position that we're in for a reason, a reason that He knew of before any of us were born. God is not freestyling through time.
PREDESTINATION(predestined for Faith AND Works) is a reality for ALL of God's people/church bodies.

Heaven on Earth? That's a good one.

Sure is! Listen to what the Lord says we can experience/should experience through Him on earth before we get to Heaven:
Galatians 5:22 The fruit of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faith, and self control.(Holy Spirit on earth)
Matthew 6:10 "Your kingdom come, your Will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven."
I Cor 15:47 "The first man was from dust, the second from Heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the Heavenly man, so also are those are Heavenly. We've borne the image of the dust man, now we can bear the image of the Heavenly man."
Matthew 6:5 "And when you PRAY...."(communication with the Father, on earth)
Romans 8:1 "...NOW no condemnation for the saints..." John 10:10 ".....we have abundant Life...(LIFE through Jesus, on earth)" Romans 8:37 "We're NOW more than conquerors through Jesus..."
All of these scriptures and plenty more promises can be experienced on earth, before we get to heaven, through Jesus. You mean to tell me that the whole time you've been saved you haven't experienced ANY heaven on earth? That's part of the good thng about having Jesus in us in Today's society. He didn't just die to get you to Heaven one day in the future, He died and rose to allow us to get a taste of His kingdom Today! I've tasted, any christian can experience these good things before they die!

Explain why did Paul write this to the Church at Rome {6:1,2}

To discourage them from sinning "so that grace my abound." Use your own life experience to understand this verse. Think of the last time you sinned, H. WHY did you do it? You know what Jesus says about sin and YOU, as a christian, STILL sinned. Paul was saying, H, that you shouldn't keep doing this just because Grace & Mercy 'have your back.' BUT...if you do it againRead Romans 5:20 to see that IF ANY sins abounds, MUCH MORE will Grace abound. God put this in His Word for You and I H because He knew that we'd both sin.

salvation. I see that you mention two out of fifteen.

Jusitfication, Sanctification, Glorification can hold everything in list that you named for salvation. We COULD break it down into 50 categories in we wanted to. The three above are fine.

You said a person has a right to believe what ever they want

Legally speaking.

I understand scripture

So does Satan and some atheist. No kools points there but the question is "are experiencing scripture?" Are you out there winning souls for Jesus and witnessing to this hurting world? Does your spiritual resume consist of a bible theology degree only, or are you representing for Jesus through out your city? I pray that you are.

Now, how can one ask for forgiveness when a sin has not been commited.

Didn't Jesus Die for sins that haven't yet been committed? As a matter of fact, He already died for all sins that haven't been committed because He's not dying anymore and we're still sinning today. He's finished and has "sat down" according to Hebrews. What scripture says that we any particular sin that we don't ask forgiveness for will send us to hell?

You can not be JUSTIFIED BEFORE YOU ARE SANCTIFIED.

Sanctification is an on going cleansing process continuing after justification.

You didn't answer my questions to you,
1) how often through the day are you saved, H? How many times have lost and regained your salvation, if indeed you can loose it from sinning? Since you do sin, explain to me the last 2 times You were unsaved, then saved again. What was it like? "Never leave you or forsake you??".....Where was the Blood of Jesus at?

2) Have you asked forgiveness for EVERY sin you've committed? Can you remember or know of every one? Even though you've accepted Jesus, H, what do you feel are your real chances of going to Heaven? Saved by Jesus, stay saved by H? Explain.

neavehinvesting,
I'm not intending this to an arguement, we're just constructively talking.

 

[Blacknbengal]

Originally posted by nevaehinvesting
By the way H, you owe me tuition money for allowing you into the neavehinvesting school of biblical studies.

 

[Blacknbengal]

Originally posted by H

Explain Romans 16:16 "Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you."

Does the bible say when and where the church will be founded? If so can the church you attend trace it's origin to that particular church?

"Where the Churches you mention - Baptist, Methodist, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, etc? " That's a easy question.

Explain 2 Corinthians 1: 1
Explain 1 Thessalonians 1: 1
***Explain 1 Thessalonians 2 : 14

Now, I am not a member of Church of God in Christ, but they can justify their name just as well as you all. Read the *** one real well now. So, what about that scripture? Should we (Christians) delete or omit that one out of the Bible? Should we (Christians) put emphasis on that one just like Romans 16:16?

*Black sits and awaits the response to this one*

 

[H]

neavehinvesting,

"I'm not intending this to an arguement, we're just constructively talking."

Agree. You are quoting good scriptures. But, you are missing the spiritual application and Theology.

Once saved always saved: That totally goes against what Rev. 20 teaches. If just believing saves people, then God would not have a use for this scripture. The scripture tells us the demons believed. Satan, believe in Jesus {but they are not saved} Believing involve more than lip service. It comes from the Greek word pisteuo {pist-yoo'-o} commit unto, commit to (one's) trust, be committed unto, be put in trust with, be commit to one's trust. The grammatical formation is: Tense - Aorist tense Active Voice - Active Mood - Subjunctive.

You can be a Child of God and be Lost Eternally, believe it or not. How? Keep in Mind The Apostles are dealing with God's People {Christians}

1. Follows of Christ are exhorted to be faithful unto death if they are to receive the crown of life (Rev. 2:10). "Be not overcome with evil, but over come evil with good.") Romans 12:21) Therefore, it's essential that we overcome in order that our names not are blotted out of the book of life. (Rev. 3:5). If there is a book of life, there has to be a book of the dead. As stated in Revelations.

2. We are told in 2 peter 1:5-11 - Obey these things we "shall never fail" This teaches that one can and may fall, and the entrance into the "everlasting kingdom of our Lord "is conditional". Now based on you theology "Once Saved Always Saved" It's impossible for someone to loose salvation {Saved}. Peter, say no that's true. Because, in order to loose something - you have to have had it at one time. You can not loose what you never had.

2. We are encouraged to restore the fallen {Gal. 6:1; Jas. 5:19, 20} and we are told what to do in order to be restored back into God's favor. (Acts 8:22; James 5:16}. Application - If one can not fall, there would be none to restore; and those who depart from the faith (truth) are in a lost condition.

READ JAMES 5:19, 20

1. This is spoken to a "Christian" a saved person. How do we know - James use the word "brethren" Application: Christians, redeemed by the blood of Christ may err from the truth. No one can err from or depart from a position he has never embraced. Those who err from the truth are lost unless they are converted form the error of their ways. To define "err, means planao {plan-ah'-o} deceive, go astray, seduce, wander, be out of the way" Aorist Tense, Subjective Mood and Passive Voice. Application: It is evident that children of God can be lost. You may say, "they were never children of God" Peter used the word brethren, therefore they has to be.

Read the Parables of Jesus that teach - that the saved can be lost.

The Sewer, Ten Virgins, The Net, Vine and Branches, The Talents, Unfaithful Servant.

Examples of having salvation {saved} then loosing it - its called Apostasy. Judas, fell "by transgression", Bananas and Sapphira sinned and died liars and hypocrite.

You thought I forgot: Yes I know the Hebrew and Greek Language. You were making a joke of it. But watch the power of the language.

Read Gal. 5:4 - Understanding the Greek Language is significant and forceful in sustaining the fact those children of God - can and did fall from grace.

"Ye are severed from Christ {katergethe - te apo Christou}. First aorist passive of katarego, to make null and void as in Romans 7:2,6. The verb is applied with comprehensive force to any destruction of growth and life, physical or spiritual, beneficial or deleterious. Joined with "apo" it denotes loss of some essential element of life by the severance of previous intimate relationship. {Read Romans 7:2 and 7:6} Here, in a similar manner, it denotes paralysis of spiritual life by severance of a union with Christ.

"Fallen from grace" {tes charitos exepesate). Second aorist tense active indicative of ekpipto (with a variable vowel of the first aorist) and followed by the ablative case. Application: This person fell out of grace and left the sphere of grace in Christ and took his stand in the sphere of law (world) as your hope of salvation. The ablative case is the case that shows separation. The verb ekpipto is made up of pipto, to fall: and ek the preposition that shows coming from within, from the inside out. The Galatians {any individual} could not leave the sphere of grace unless they had previously been in it. This proves, that someone with a previously intimate relationship with Christ, in the sphere of grace, actually out of grace; and lost their "spiritual life by severance of the union with Christ.

We are having a fire drill - I will deal with Predestination later. You are in the ball park but you are missing application.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

Read the Parables of Jesus that teach - that the saved can be lost.

How about this:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus has never known these people who thought they were saved. He didn't used to know them and then they unsaved after sinning. He didn't Know them at one point and then stopped Knowing them. "He NEVER Knew them" according to His Words. He NEVER had a relationship with these people.
According to Matthew 25:31-46, When Jesus comes back the world will be sepearted into 2 groups(not 3), 2 groups, sheep and goats.

Sheep = going to heaven = Knows Jesus = saved
Goats = not going to heaven = "never knew Jesus" = never really saved in 1st place

The sheep He knows, The goats He NEVER knew. There will be NO 3rd group up there, in that day, for people He "used to know but have lost his blood benefits." That group is Non-existant. There's only two groups, that's it. Those He KNOWS & those He NEVER Knew, according to Jesus.

I really believe that it is possible to think that you're saved because religious practices or just because you've verbally said "I believe in Jesus" but the entire 7th chapter tells us that IF we are saved, it'll show through our walk. "By their fruits you will know them." I can't think of any instances where someone saved under the blood of Jesus, lost it. The scriptures you listed I don't think supported the idea of someone saved by the blood Jesus, lost it.
You may not agree but I believe that Matthew 7:21 dsiplays that fact that there has to be an outward change(works) AFTER a REAL/SINCERE inward change(Truth/Faith) External "works" without Internal "faith" is dead to the non-christian trying to get to heaven, just like Internal "faith" without external "works" is of No use the Saints trying to stay strong on earth. That's what I got from Matthew - Revelation.

How can ANY Christian call themselves "saved" knowing that there is a decent - good chance of them still going to Hell? Saved from what? Do you consider yourself saved, H? You shouldn't because you may sin one day, and then die right afterward. You've accepted Jesus and his teaching BUT what are the odds of H going to Heaven, according to your theology?

 

[Blacknbengal]

Are you two pastors or preachers?

 

[docmump]

agreed.

Originally posted by Blacknbengal
Are you two pastors or preachers?

That was the same thing I started wondering.
I doubt if nevaehinvesting is a pastor, being that He attends Lakewood and the pastor of Lakewood is Joel Olsteen.
Unless......:ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow: He is Joel Olsteen.

 

[Blacknbengal]

Re: agreed.

Originally posted by docmump


That was the same thing I started wondering.
I doubt if nevaehinvesting is a pastor, being that He attends Lakewood and the pastor of Lakewood is Joel Olsteen.
Unless......:ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow::ebrow: He is Joel Olsteen.

AHHHHH, HHHHHHAAAAA!!!!!!!! :idea:

 

[nevaehinvesting]

Are you two pastors or preachers?

That was the same thing I started wondering. I doubt if nevaehinvesting is a pastor, being that He attends Lakewood and the pastor of Lakewood is Joel Olsteen. Unless......:idea: :eek2::idea::eek2::idea: He is Joel Olsteen.

That's flattering.

I'm not a preacher or a pastor. I'm just a regular christian trying to live 'right' like you guys. My name Terrence & I went to PV and was active in Gamma Phi Delta Chrsitian Fraternity there on the yard. I taught a campus bible study for the frat/school for 2 years(98'-99') and we talked abut many of the issues discussed on this board.
"nevaehinvesting" is just a name taken from the name my real estate business "Nevaeh Investing." (Nevaeh is Heaven spelled backwards, which has a story behind it.)