Just Curious...

[docmump]

Diehard,
I read your other post and I will comment about that here.

In Houston, a church on the North side of town did the same thing. Allowed a female member of their church to be a minister but would not allow her to speak in the pulpit. The way i feel is this. If your church as female ministers then fully respect them as such. Dont play both sides of the fence. Give them full rights as ministers.

Since my church dont have any female preachers, we dont have that problem.

The 1st Timothy scriptures are the explanation I have heard, but SOME men do not run their households now, so how can we depend upon SOME of them to run the church? How do you let known adulterers, alcoholics and crack heads sit in the pulpit when you KNOW that is what they are doing, but refuse to let a good Christian woman who has been called by God to do the same? Is it not the duty of the BISHOP to oversee the church and it's religious administration (i.e., associate pastors, evangelists, etc.)? I am not well schooled in the Bible as many of my friends, but I do know that a lot of what happens in the Bible has background information relevant to the individuals, the land, and the actual interpretation of the Greek or Judaic words used by the speaker or the writer.

I believe that Jesus forgives us totally of all sins. So when i see somebody in the pulpit that was an Adulterer, Alcoholics, ETC It reminds me of how I was like them "A SINNER" and Jesus washes US . If it is not the DUTY of the BISHOP to eversee the adminstration, then whose DUTY is it??

A message of hope and salvation can come from a child. I just hope that we listen and not get caught up in whether it was a boy or a girl child.

True A message of Hope and Salvation can come from any one of us. But once again that is Evangelism.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

I am Church of Christ and women are not allowed to preach. The reason they do not preach, is not based on A MISINTERPETATATION OF THE SCRIPTURE. It based solely on bibical teaching.

It's actually based your sole interpretation of Bible teaching.

The question is, does your church take most scriptures as being 100% LITERAL(face value), or does your church teach scriptures as being PRINCIPLES to be interpreted to apply to our lives today(spiritual value)

I personally don't believe that all scripture is to be taken literally with nothing more to it.
If we did take scripture literally all the time than we:

would pluck out our eyes, -Matt 5:29:bawling:
cut of our hands, -Matt 5:30
*girls counldn't wear weaves or gold, -I Tim 2:9:eek2:
couldn't pray without a physical closet, Matt 6:6

I promise you I could name 15 more examples of scriptures that if taken literally, would be of NO GOOD to the church. Women teaching in the church is one of those examples. I can read, I know what the scripture literally says but again I say this, if the scriptures in I Timothy 2:11-13 were to be taken literally, then we should not find anywhere in scripture where God ordains a woman to rule over His people from the time of Adam and Eve, til now. That's not the case though. I'ma tell you like Gamaliel told the people at the end of Acts chapter 5, "Let these people do their thing for God. If what they're doing is really NOT God's plan, than it will fail....BUT, if it IS God's plan than can't none of y'all stand against it anyway and they'll CONTINUE to be blessed, & a blessing! "(regardless of what we think) Women teachers have sho nuff blessed me in my life.

I'm not mad at anybody as long as you're teaching the death and ressurection of Jesus & living as holy as you 'KNOW' how. We have differences if our understanding but let's not bicker too much with each other because there are peolpe out there who do not know the Lord at all. This is what I believe, Baptist, Catholic, Penacostle, Non-denomination, Chuch of Christ, Methodist, Full Gospel, etc we're all on the same team through Jesus Christ.

 

[docmump]

Originally posted by nevaehinvesting

It's actually based your sole interpretation of Bible teaching.

The question is, does your church take most scriptures as being 100% LITERAL(face value), or does your church teach scriptures as being PRINCIPLES to be interpreted to apply to our lives today(spiritual value)

I personally don't believe that all scripture is to be taken literally with nothing more to it.
If we did take scripture literally all the time than we:

would pluck out our eyes, -Matt 5:29:bawling:
cut of our hands, -Matt 5:30
*girls counldn't wear weaves or gold, -I Tim 2:9:eek2:
couldn't pray without a physical closet, Matt 6:6

I promise you I could name 15 more examples of scriptures that if taken literally, would be of NO GOOD to the church. Women teaching in the church is one of those examples. I can read, I know what the scripture literally says but again I say this, if the scriptures in I Timothy 2:11-13 were to be taken literally, then we should not find anywhere in scripture where God ordains a woman to rule over His people from the time of Adam and Eve, til now. That's not the case though. I'ma tell you like Gamaliel told the people at the end of Acts chapter 5, "Let these people do their thing for God. If what they're doing is really NOT God's plan, than it will fail....BUT, if it IS God's plan than can't none of y'all stand against it anyway and they'll CONTINUE to be blessed, & a blessing! "(regardless of what we think) Women teachers have sho nuff blessed me in my life.

I'm not mad at anybody as long as you're teaching the death and ressurection of Jesus & living as holy as you 'KNOW' how. We have differences if our understanding but let's not bicker too much with each other because there are peolpe out there who do not know the Lord at all. This is what I believe, Baptist, Catholic, Penacostle, Non-denomination, Chuch of Christ, Methodist, Full Gospel, etc we're all on the same team through Jesus Christ.

nevaehinvesting,
Great Post, But there is a difference between Teaching and Preaching.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

nevaehinvesting, Great Post, But there is a difference between Teaching and Preaching.

You're correct,

Preaching "Proclaims"

Teaching "Explains"

.....if someone thinks women should be silent in church, it really doesn't matter what she trys to do or claims to be because it will require speaking, in church(gathering of the saints), 1 way or another.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

Preaching "Proclaims"
Teaching "Explains"

....oh yeah, we've been blessed at Lakewood church in houston to have a pastor who can both. All are welcome!

 

[Jaguar Diehard]

Some good stuff...

Now I love this kind of forum where brothers and sisters can express points of views, so let me start with

I believe that Jesus forgives us totally of all sins. So when i see somebody in the pulpit that was an Adulterer, Alcoholics, ETC It reminds me of how I was like them "A SINNER" and Jesus washes US.

I don't know about you Doc, but I am not one to dwell on what these folks have done and are doing because as Neva has stated earlier...

BUT, if it IS God's plan than can't none of
y'all stand against it anyway

As for

If it is not the DUTY of the BISHOP to eversee the adminstration, then whose DUTY is it??

In my church, the Deacons and the Laymen. The Pastor is not even a "member" so he only provides spiritual leadership and guidance. He does not designate funding for anything and can only suggest whenever he is asked. His decisions on the church administration are NOT final, but we do assess situations carefully if there is conflict. Spiritual administration...teaching, evangelism, missionary acts, etc., falls in his domain. He can appoint teachers and SOME leaders, but that is bout it. It is here we have the conflict with the woman in the pulpit. I can go on record by saying that he has no majority when it comes to this issue. Hence, the dilemma...people don't like the way they are feeling right now, myself included. A spirit of confusion is not what God wants.

The thing is, we can overlook some things in which we know we have no control over such as homosexuality and "what are they really doing with the missionary offering?".

Point is God IS, HAS BEEN, and FOREVER will be in control. I just don't want no ROCKS CRYING OUT FOR ME!!!! I want to hear the Word from someone who is willing to be used as God's instrument for the teaching and preaching! We all know the "try the Spirit by the Spirit" rule. This woman has a remarkable gift and to shun her because she is a woman??? I ain't feelin' it.

Well, let's just ask..."WHY let her preach her first sermon at the church when you KNOW that she wasn't gonna be able to do another one except as a speaker on Womens Day (or any other "womens program")???

 

[docmump]

Originally posted by nevaehinvesting


....oh yeah, we've been blessed at Lakewood church in houston to have a pastor who can both. All are welcome!

Nevahinvesting,
I visited Lakewood once when Carlton Pearson was there. I like the Church. I grew up near Lakewood about 5 miles from there.

 

[docmump]

Re: Some good stuff...

Originally posted by Jaguar Diehard
In my church, the Deacons and the Laymen. The Pastor is not even a "member" so he only provides spiritual leadership and guidance. He does not designate funding for anything and can only suggest whenever he is asked. His decisions on the church administration are NOT final, but we do assess situations carefully if there is conflict. Spiritual administration...teaching, evangelism, missionary acts, etc., falls in his domain. He can appoint teachers and SOME leaders, but that is bout it. It is here we have the conflict with the woman in the pulpit. I can go on record by saying that he has no majority when it comes to this issue. Hence, the dilemma...people don't like the way they are feeling right now, myself included. A spirit of confusion is not what God wants.

The thing is, we can overlook some things in which we know we have no control over such as homosexuality and "what are they really doing with the missionary offering?".

Point is God IS, HAS BEEN, and FOREVER will be in control. I just don't want no ROCKS CRYING OUT FOR ME!!!! I want to hear the Word from someone who is willing to be used as God's instrument for the teaching and preaching! We all know the "try the Spirit by the Spirit" rule. This woman has a remarkable gift and to shun her because she is a woman??? I ain't feelin' it.

Well, let's just ask..."WHY let her preach her first sermon at the church when you KNOW that she wasn't gonna be able to do another one except as a speaker on Womens Day (or any other "womens program")???

Diehard,
You are right, The God is not the author of confusion. Becareful of this scripture, it is the verse above women should be silent in church. Just kidding. That is why out pastor has control over all matters of the church, within reason of course. He cant do what he wants but the "membership" has the say if there is a problem. I believe that your pastor should be a member of your church and he should pay tithe at your church as well.

If you read my earier post I stated "If a church is going to have women ministers, they should have full rights as such. Our church do not have women ministers." Your pastor should make a judgement on this subject and be finish with it. Either Yes to women ministers and full rights as a minister or No, to women ministers all together.

 

[Jaguar Diehard]

You are absolutely right, Doc!

I believe that your pastor should be a member of your church and he should pay tithe at your church as well.

This was a one time situation in which he was a special case, but we have "fixed" it to where it won't happen again...at least the selection process.

Also,

Your pastor should make a judgement on this subject and be finish with it. Either Yes to women ministers and full rights as a minister or No, to women ministers all together.

This has been my request from day one. Squash it one way or the other, but from a Divine Revelation and not from an "I think" point of view.

Pray for us!

 

[H]

The Book of Philemon, deals with the slave - master relationship. Whenever the bible is studied - there is always a spiritual lesson involved.

Jaguar Diehard

They are not a member of the church? How can the body allow that to happen?

Why do everyone dwell on 1 Cor. 14:35? Do anyone truley understand, why Paul, is writing this to the Church at Corinth?

The Apostle Paul, is discussing speaking in tongues {14:1-4}. He is not saying that a woman is not to speak in church; he is saying that she is not to speak in tongues in the church.

Notice, he use the word "woman" that word should be wife or wives. Why? because in 35 he says "let them ask their husband" Where? "at home" Also, notice the word "your" Paul, speaking to the speaking to the husbands}.

These instructions is to "husband to guide and teach their own wives {at home} to reduce the amount of confusion and disturbance during church service. Why? {1 Cor. 14:34} The word speak, means "uttering sounds that are incoherent and not understood by others".

Paul, uses the same word {s} in 28-30, when he tells some men concerning speaking {unknown tongue} in church. What Paul, is saying is that only one man must speak at a time, for it two speak at once, there will be confusion. Then he uses the same anology in {34}.

The issue is not men verses women, but it is about confusion verses order. He is saying in the sight of God, it makes no differance who causes the confusion. Also, it is a shame for any woman to bring confusion into the local church {35}, even as ot is for any man to do so.

 

[docmump]

Originally posted by H
The Book of Philemon, deals with the slave - master relationship. Whenever the bible is studied - there is always a spiritual lesson involved.

Jaguar Diehard

They are not a member of the church? How can the body allow that to happen?

Why do everyone dwell on 1 Cor. 14:35? Do anyone truley understand, why Paul, is writing this to the Church at Corinth?

The Apostle Paul, is discussing speaking in tongues {14:1-4}. He is not saying that a woman is not to speak in church; he is saying that she is not to speak in tongues in the church.

Notice, he use the word "woman" that word should be wife or wives. Why? because in 35 he says "let them ask their husband" Where? "at home" Also, notice the word "your" Paul, speaking to the speaking to the husbands}.

These instructions is to "husband to guide and teach their own wives {at home} to reduce the amount of confusion and disturbance during church service. Why? {1 Cor. 14:34} The word speak, means "uttering sounds that are incoherent and not understood by others".

Paul, uses the same word {s} in 28-30, when he tells some men concerning speaking {unknown tongue} in church. What Paul, is saying is that only one man must speak at a time, for it two speak at once, there will be confusion. Then he uses the same anology in {34}.

The issue is not men verses women, but it is about confusion verses order. He is saying in the sight of God, it makes no differance who causes the confusion. Also, it is a shame for any woman to bring confusion into the local church {35}, even as ot is for any man to do so.

H,
Who stated that this issue is about men vs women? Our issue is women ministers. No one introduced I Cor 14:35 until you did. But, you are right about I Cor 14:35, it does refer to women asking questions to their husband while church is going on, and etc. Women can speak in church.

What do you believe about women ministers H?

 

[H]

docmump

Unless I mis-read someone's comments. Someone mention about women being silent in church, God is not the author of confusion, etc. 1 Cor. 14.

As someone mentioned this particular scripture is misunderstood. Not only is it misunderstood, some people {men} attempt to use this as a source of power to belittle or spiritually abuse women in the church. Whenever this happens it becomes a man vs woman issue.

I am sure most of has heard men say "the bible says, a woman should be silent in church. Therefore, you need to silent." Yes, the bible says that. But, can you explain, why Paul, is making this statement. If not he need to shut up.

I was just explainig the entire contents of the scripture. There are many religious bodies, that use this particular scripture in conjunction with 1 Tim. 2:11 to say women should not speak in church. If that's exactly what the bible means {being silent}. Then that would violate Ephesians 5:19.


nevaehinvesting

It's actually based your sole interpretation of Bible teaching.

No, I have taken the time to go to school to learn Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. The language of the Old and New Testement. I have also gone to school to learn: The Historical Setting, Bible Exegesis and Hermeneutics. Therefore, I understand the grammar of the languages.

"What do you believe about women ministers"

We are all ministers. But, when it comes to preaching - before the entire congregation {church service} God, does not permit this under any circumstance.


There is a term used in the ministry. It is called "Isegesis " Which means a person takes a particular scripture and run with is - without know the culture, history, word study etc.

 

[docmump]

H,
You are right, somebody did mention it. I just let the comment go. I know this scripture is always being taken out of context.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

H,

Remember, a lot of people went to biblical schools, seminary institutes, learned different laguages, study on a regular basis, teach, preach, & a lot of people even have personal relationships with God Himself.

But regardless of your or my Spiritual Resume,...

It's actually based your sole interpretation of Bible teaching

because we still can't agree fully even though EVERYONE feels THEIR interpretation is the right 'ONE' according to God's Word. Did everyone agree with you that was in your bible learning classes? didn't they get the same degree you did and learn the same languages you did?

We can only do what we feel God wants us to do to the best of our ability and according to our relationship with Him. The only time that there may be trouble is when we began to think -->> "that as individuals or denominations that our understanding or interpretations are ALL correct and everyone else who sees scripture differently than me/us is wrong." The nerve of some people.

 

[H]

nevaehinvesting

I understand what you are saying.

The bible, is easy to read and understand. The problem is the human mind / heart refusing to accept the truth. I have learned over the years, not to argue with people. But, to teach the truth as it is written. Christ, himself, teaches about people rejecting him and his teachings.

I do not understand how a person that consider themself a Christian, continue to misunderstand the scriptures. For example when the Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, outlines in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 the qualification of deacons and bishops. How in the world can a female, justify being a deacon or bishop in the church?

 

[docmump]

Agreed.

Originally posted by H
nevaehinvesting

I understand what you are saying.

The bible, is easy to read and understand. The problem is the human mind / heart refusing to accept the truth. I have learned over the years, not to argue with people. But, to teach the truth as it is written. Christ, himself, teaches about people rejecting him and his teachings.

I do not understand how a person that consider themself a Christian, continue to misunderstand the scriptures. For example when the Holy Spirit, through the Apostle Paul, outlines in 1 Timothy 3:1-13 the qualification of deacons and bishops. How in the world can a female, justify being a deacon or bishop in the church?

The Human mind is the problem with man and religion. We want our cake and eat it too. We want to except the word that deals with the tithe but not the word that deals with Killing. I.E. The death penality in the justice system.

I dont believe the people are refusing/rejecting all the teaching of Christ but culture itself may be to blame. Like i stated, people are confusing Evangelism and Preaching the Gospel and People are also confusing the role of women in the church and Women's Lib.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

I don't know H, with the "blameless man" qualifications and the "all subjective children" qualifications, if taken %100 literally, how in the world can any Man justify being a deacon or bishop in the church?
If not taken %100 literally, what percent should we just take literally & stop and what percent shall we look deeper into, or interpret?
It's kinda like the women wearing the braided hair in I Timothy 2 thing. I quess it's literal stuff vs stuff that needs to be interpreted.
(from memory)I was reading in Matthew, I believe, and Jesus was teaching the discples about pure and un-pure and he used an anology of unleavened bread. The folks listening thought He was just talking about bread/food, but the interpretation was that He was teaching them about being pure.(forgive me if I messed up the above Jesus story, I don't have my bible with me right now)

Literal intepretation vs revelation vs various understandings. This will probably go on until Jesus comes back. I believe, as I said earlier, we're all on the same team when it comes down to it. Let's all keep representing for Jesus to world that really needs Him.

How long did it take you to learn the different languages H? I know at the most only 50 greek/hebrew words/name meanings so I'm far from fluent. Which language was the hardest to learn?
What school did you go to? I've heard that Dalls Seminary was a good one.

 

[Blacknbengal]

H, I have a couple of questions for you. I was married to a female who is a Church of Christ member. I would like to know if every Church of Christ doctrines are the same.

What is your view on instruments in the church?

What is your view on the Holy Spirit in today's society?

Do you believe that there are still Apostles in the world?

Do you believe that Church of Christ is the only church and all others (such as Baptists, Methodist, Pentacostal, etc.) are not really part of Christ's church?



Just axing!!

 

[docmump]

This is going to be good.

Hey,
I need to go get the popcorn out of the microwave. H hurry up and post so i can see what you think of those subject matters.

What is so controversal about Church of Christ?

I am glad you guys did not ask me those questions.

 

[Blacknbengal]

Re: This is going to be good.

Originally posted by docmump
What is so controversal about Church of Christ?

Notice docmump that I sais "was" married. I believe that if you can not pray together than you will not stay together. There were alot of issues that we could not solve or come to an agreement on. These were just a few.

 

[JSTUS]

Re: Re: This is going to be good.

Originally posted by Blacknbengal


Notice docmump that I sais "was" married. I believe that if you can not pray together than you will not stay together. There were alot of issues that we could not solve or come to an agreement on. These were just a few.

I am a strong believer in "pray together, stay together". When married, you are suppose to be one(1), a union . There is no way to be united if you are not on one accord spiritually.

 

[Blacknbengal]

Re: Re: Re: This is going to be good.

Originally posted by JSTUS


I am a strong believer in "pray together, stay together". When married, you are suppose to be one(1), a union . There is no way to be united if you are not on one accord spiritually.

I feel the same way. That is why I LOVE you!!! :love:

 

[docmump]

Re: This is going to be good.

Originally posted by Blacknbengal


Notice docmump that I sais "was" married. I believe that if you can not pray together than you will not stay together. There were alot of issues that we could not solve or come to an agreement on. These were just a few.

Hmm. I really dont like getting too deep into people's business but since we are talking about Christians... Was you Church of Christ before you got married? If not, As being the "MAN" of your house, why did you convert to Church of Christ? If you was not Church of Christ, why didn't you take your wife to your church and worship?

I have a friend of mine, he was in the same boat. Dating this girl for years who was Church of Christ. Things got serious, he got serious with God, he joined our Baptist Church, and they broke up. He just stated that She was Church of Christ. I was like Man, we are Christians and you are the man. Do your thing "MAN". Take that woman, like Boaz and get her to your church and worship together, case closed.

There is another "Misinterpeted" scripture "Equally Yoked". What does that mean to some of your guys? Does it mean, if you are Christians but worship in two seperate demonanations, can you all hookup as a couple? or if she has the faith and the man dont can they hookup as a couple?

 

[Blacknbengal]

Re: Re: This is going to be good.

Originally posted by docmump


Hmm. I really dont like getting too deep into people's business but since we are talking about Christians... Was you Church of Christ before you got married? NoIf not, As being the "MAN" of your house, why did you convert to Church of Christ? Just can not believe that Church of Christ is the only group of believers that is going to Heaven. If you was not Church of Christ, why didn't you take your wife to your church and worship? Tried, but because of her belief she did not want to convert over or even worship.

I have a friend of mine, he was in the same boat. Dating this girl for years who was Church of Christ. Things got serious, he got serious with God, he joined our Baptist Church, and they broke up. He just stated that She was Church of Christ. Tell your friend that I feel his pain in that department. I understand EVERYTHING he went through. I was like Man, we are Christians and you are the man. Do your thing "MAN". Take that woman, like Boaz and get her to your church and worship together, case closed. Not that easy. When a woman have her mind made up, even if she is wrong, it takes a lighting bolt from God to basically change it.

There is another "Misinterpeted" scripture "Equally Yoked". What does that mean to some of your guys? Does it mean, if you are Christians but worship in two seperate demonanations, can you all hookup as a couple? or if she has the faith and the man dont can they hookup as a couple?

 

[docmump]

When a woman have her mind made up, even if she is wrong, it takes a lighting bolt from God to basically change it.

Are they still doing the Quotes of the Year??
:lol::lol::lol::lol: