dacontinent
Preacher
No. We have documentation that some did whoop and some didn't - BOTH - just like we do today.You have documentation that EVERY Preacher back "then" whooped?!
Really? EVERY? Gone now...smh
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
No. We have documentation that some did whoop and some didn't - BOTH - just like we do today.You have documentation that EVERY Preacher back "then" whooped?!
Really? EVERY? Gone now...smh
I guess I missed understood bible hermeneutics and exegesis! No going back and looking [History] and at all the scriptures that related to “music and worship” that’s directed toward God.
...Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
...
There are no instances in the Bible of the church ever using instrumental music to worship God. First Century Church history and scripture provides insight of music that the early church used—singing. There were no, guitars, drums, pianos, organs, dancers, strobe lights etc, etc.
...
Clement then says...
And I further believe ... Adam Clark
Clark also quotes John Wesley as saying, ...
Aa Baptist historian, in his book, Fifty Years Among the Baptists (1859), said, ... David Benedict
Illinijag
God awesomely uses His church teachers in different ways, with different gifts, different personalities, etc not “in spite of†as you say but rather “because of.†Because of- me, you, and everybody ‘responds’ differently to teaching styles. Some people respond well to fire & brimstone teaching, but not everybody. Some people respond well to sermons with a lot of personal stories, but everybody. Some respond well to emotional messages, others just like blank faces. Loud music vs hear a pin drop, etc…
IN THE BIBLE
Jesus did a lot of teaching. Around 15 documented subjects in the Gospels
and around 40 parables (stories) used by Jesus to explain those 15 subjects. He quoted scripture (it is written) sometimes, but not a whole lot. Overall, He had relaxed sermons (when He wasn’t overturning tables) with practical teaching for everyday life.
So His ministry was: Relaxed easy teaching + quote a few scriptures + tell A LOT of stories. That was Jesus’ style of teaching. That’s like Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer today.
ALSO IN THE BIBLE
Peter & Paul. They seemed to be more “in your face†with ministry. Less patience. Not a lot of nice parables like Jesus. They usually kept it straight Heaven & Hell. Very direct. Paul called out specific people publically when they sinned whether it was hypocritical Peter in Galatians 2 or the Christians in Corinthians who were committing sexual immorality.
Peter, sword, you know. They were direct, in your face without the nice stories & parables, at times just Heaven vs Hell take it or leave it style of teaching. Jesus helped the adulterous woman who was called out in front of everyone whereas Paul was the one calling them out.
TEACHERS / PREACHERS TODAY
Just like in the bible, some teachers today seem to be more story tellers with just a few scriptures. Others seem to be a lot more fire & brimstone (you going to hell if you don’t change 2day!). Some services are relaxed and you can hear a pin drop in their service. Others are a lot more lively. Both are needed to capture different types of people. I’ve seen both types of styles / presentations save & help people.
**It’s silly for the two different types (styles) of service to criticize each other. We’re the boy of Christ. Arms, legs, back, hands, feet, etc. When the feet criticize the arms for being different, it’s silly. God doesn’t use the foot “in spite of†it being a foot. He uses the foot “because†it’s the foot.
**Even our swacpage posting back and forth like this is for edification (should be), so it’s teaching. Your style is posting a lot of scriptures to get your point across. My style is to post 1 or 2 scriptures and expound more. Others may just post youtube clips of other pastors that they like to get their point across. It’s all teaching, just different ways (styles) to do it. Same with in churches….***
INFACT
I’ve met (been around) Christians my whole life. I’ve seen some of my friends, family, co-workers, strangers, etc accept Jesus as Savior. This is awesome to me because a lot of them came from different backgrounds, religions, beliefs, and parts of the world. Crazy thing is, most accepted Jesus at various types of churches as far as style (of course all Christian churches) but we wound up in the same spot in the end now, *with Jesus.* Some of my friends don't get much from my pastor's teaching but they love their own pastor of course and vice versus. That's fine.
For some people that’s not good enough. Salvation is only good to them if it happens without whooping, or without music, or without a women being involved, or without etc. Nevermind the fact they saved
Oh well, Let’s go save somebody….!
There are no instances in the Bible of the church ever using instrumental music to worship God. First Century Church history and scripture provides insight of music that the early church used—singing. There were no, guitars, drums, pianos, organs, dancers, strobe lights etc, etc.
In fact, is the history of the early church fathers is read, they rejected music in the church, other than what’s outlined in the bible.
Clement then says, “The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by which we honour God, is what we employ. We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, and trumpet, and timbrel, and flute….”
“And I further believe that the use of such instruments of music in the Christian Church is without the sanction and against the will of God; that they are subversive of the spirit of true devotion, and that they are sinful.” Adam Clark
Clark also quotes John Wesley as saying, “I have no objections to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen.”
Aa Baptist historian, in his book, Fifty Years Among the Baptists (1859), said, “Staunch old Baptists in former times would have as soon tolerated the Pope of Rome in their pulpits as an organ in their galleries.” David Benedict
While your statement is true and I agree with you completely, that is not my point at all. My point is rather the more we study science, nature, music, literature, ... all of the elements of life, the better equipped we are to be able to relate the Word to believers and unbelievers alike, as prompted by the Holy Spirit....I assume you are saying that the more we study God's word the more the Holy Spirit can help us descern spiritual things; and those without the Holy Spirit (carnal man) cannot understand the God's Word. If so, I do agree...
I hope that we are receiving whatever we are teaching straight from the KING, just as Paul did. If we are not, then it is my suggestion that we study ... to be quiet....Rightly dividing the Word would be to provide correct application and insight. Such is to apply to or to received from life experiences and the world. Again, the truth must reside in scripture, thus all truth must be subjected to and found true via scripture.
As far as Paul in Acts 17 I am not sure if this is good example. Paul may not have use OT scripture, Paul was blazing scripture as he spoke, and his inspired words are scripture. He received His teaching straight from the KING for he received an extraordinary call. Paul words are inspired but I can't make such a claim in my exhortation; again, this is why I do and I promote that we should "Subject all things to Scripture".
You may bring it up if you would like. However, the closest reference to whoopin is not one to the Pharisees but to the apostles Peter and John in Acts 4. When you study the Greek language there, you will certain understand that parrhesia means a bit more than just boldness. I am sure that you are aware that not everything that translated in 1611 British translates the same way 400 years later in the US....Do I need to bring up the reference to "study the culture of the Pharisees" again? The matter of the Pharisee whoopin has found no factual Biblical bases (period/none). All you need to do is to give clear Biblical support that the Pharisee whooped and we will believe. If none does not exist, you could have said "I think so because of" or "I JUST DON'T KNOW". Technically you did not offer the "study the culture of the Pharisees” document to me, but even if one person may have thought that your reference meant that this (or any other non biblical) document is suitable or is as credible as Biblical support, such would be to promote error. Neither the Bible nor I approves of such...
Instruments were spoke of in the Old Testament but I do not recall it being apart of corporate worship, neither do I recall reading of such in the early Church.
It is clear that music excites the flesh which can give off a false assurance to the unsaved or provide heart felt praise from the saved.
Not so fast, my friend.Absolutely, neither did the Leviticus Priesthood use instruments...
I hope that we are receiving whatever we are teaching straight from the KING, just as Paul did. If we are not, then it is my suggestion that we study ... to be quiet.
A classic example of the type of study that I mentioned is referenced in Post #52 of this thread.
Inaccurate. The high priest was the only one allowed to enter the holy of holies and offer atonement for the people.Worship Service, remember the priest we the only ones allowed to enter the presence of God. Davis and others dancing in the temple or court yard does not matter – they were not in worship.
If you have Christ as Savior and the Holy Spirit is guide, you have a direct connection Him who had the spirit without Measure. That is the purpose and work of the Holy Spirit. Paul had no more than you and I do. His calling MIGHT have been different, but not His access....Paul had a direct connection from Him who had the spirit without Measure. The King left us His spirit and His Manual, we would be naive to believe or think that we don't often receive interference, some lost of communication or even miss-information. If this were not so, you and I will always be on one accord. We need to stay as close to the King as possible ... we must be as a Branch to a Vine..
John 15:5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Oh well, I want to respond, especially to the implications about music / instruments not being for today's church but this has turned into the usualy unfruitful tennis match so let's agree to disagree and just keep on saving folks (of course I mean witnessing )
No. We have documentation that some did whoop and some didn't - BOTH - just like we do today.
How do you know that our "elders and forefathers" whooped?! LOL
I'm sure just like ther are some Preachers now that don't whoop...there were some back then that didn't whoop.
I recently changed churches. Today my mom asked me if the congregation at the new church I go to now "gets happy," was the message spirit-filled and anointed? I said no one "got happy," and I understood or was drawn to what the preacher was attempting to convey in his message. The preacher doesn't "whoop." He speaks with emphasis, however.
He uses scriptures from the OT and NT to explain his points. And there was no soft playing piano or drum melodies in the background near the end. He just ends his message with "Thank you for your time." It is more of a class-like atmosphere than the standard churches most people attend each week.
what church do you attend?
Oh well, I want to respond, especially to the implications about music / instruments not being for today's church but this has turned into the usualy unfruitful tennis match so let's agree to disagree and just keep on saving folks (of course I mean witnessing )
If you have Christ as Savior and the Holy Spirit is guide, you have a direct connection Him who had the spirit without Measure. That is the purpose and work of the Holy Spirit.
Paul had no more than you and I do. His calling MIGHT have been different, but not His access.
...Ok, you say, “Paul had no more than you and I do”. I am not going to focus on you; I am going to just look at myself relative to Paul.
Paul and I are sinners save by grace, but to say Paul and I have the same light (revelation) and gifts! Let look at reality (Biblical Facts):
Jesus taught Paul directly, I was not. ...
Paul, who had received the Holy Ghost (John 16 again) while in Damascus, says that he was not taught the gospel that he preached by any man. He does not say that he was taught by Jesus, but that it was revealed to him....Galatian 1:11-12. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:16-17. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
It was Jesus direct will for Paul to be who Paul became. The power Jesus had in His direct teaching to Paul over ruled any resistance from Paul’s flesh. If Jesus left His teaching to Paul’s human ability to understand, Paul learning would be subjected to interpretive error.
I cannot lay claim to the same method of revelation that Paul received. We have the New Testament to read, the indwelling Holy Spirit to teach/guide and the flesh to fight our will to do so. Paul was given his message directly from the source (Jesus) like the Prophets of old; when God wills a revelation to be, it cannot be diverted by the flesh.
There are many other things that were revealed to Paul, which I cannot claim any measurable revelation to compare. However, what is true is that the same eternity that awaits Paul awaits all of God's elect.
The Holy Spirit is the same but it gives in measure as it pleases God.
Romans 9:21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
The fact is, God gives to whom He wish to give and to what degree pleases Him. His gifts vary in type and degrees. Lest any man boast, consider this:
1 Corinthians 4:7. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?...
Let me encourage you to not sell yourself short or put limits on what great service the Lord will command of you to provide. Jesus did say to expect greater works than He did. It could be that you simply have not YET reached that point....Paul was a man whom God elevated to do a great service…Much Greater than the service I provide. However, I will provide service consistent with the light I was given. Given this truth we must never envy another man’s gift (good words) for to do so would be envy the Source (Heaven).
John 3:27. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Good Day and God Bless
Speaking for myself, I have received many visions, documenting and sharing them with others, and enjoyed seeing them come to fruition. There are some that I am still waiting for their fruit. I am expecting to have more visions.
Answer: The Holy Ghost. That same Spirit that inspired men to write ALL of scripture; who has the mind of Christ; who distributes the gifts in the Body; who is eternal from beginning to end; whom Jesus promised would lead and guide us into all truth; who would continue to inspire scripture after Paul was dead....If Paul did not received revelation direct from Christ, where did he get it from? It was not written in scripture, where else would it come from?
...Whoa…Are you sure you wanted to write that? I normally leave people alone who make these type of statements.
Brother, there are no new revelation, the Bible is complete.
1 Corinthians 13:10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away
Your vision at best are your random thoughts based on your best judgment of what you understand. Be careful and check the source of your visions, Satan and his demons has powers to fill some of our desires. If your vision is not consistent with God’s Word, you have been deceived.
Brother, I did not write this.Listen to Peter, he stated that he heard a voice from heaven, but we have a more word of prophecy (The Bible) and we are advised to heed the word (The Bible) than to listen to unsourced visions.
2 Peter 1:18-20. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The following scripture states that we (Christians) are spoken to by Christ (the Holy Spirit he left for us). The Holy Spirit is our aid in understanding that, which we aquire from Scripture and scriptural teaching (preaching). If we receive visions as you stated, we need not the scriptures, we would be as foretell Prophets.
Hebrews 1:1-2. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
I gave you an enormous amount of Biblical data showing that the Holy Spirit has varying degrees of measure, starting with the standard which is Christ, who has it without measure. I would hope you were able to view those passages from the perspective of the Whole Council of God (complete Bible). I cannot give you anymore than that, but if you continue to believe what you fail to support with scripture, so be it.
My point is simply that God MIGHT have even greater service in mind for you than He did for Paul. Just from what you write in your posts, I have great expectations of you.As far as me selling myself short, I don’t fall for worldly slogans given by preachers who promotes man’s will; It is God and God alone who gives man to do, that He will them to do. I will remain faithful to God and continue to receive the blessing he as given me.
:lol:“Sell myself short†I have nothing to sell, I am just a servant who owes all to God, if it pleases God to leave me short (as you may see me)…such is He will.
...Just a warning, make sure your visions are consistent with Scripture and remember that Satan and his demon can mask themselves as light.
There's alot of different teaching and preaching styles ordained by God. My preacher doesn't whoop he just straight talks "teaches" and people still criticize him ALL the time. I grew up in a baptist church tho and that guy whooped every week, which was fine, and people criticized him too.
End of the day, are people being helped? Are people getting saved? I don't mean just YOU; but anyone? Answer usually yes, so leave them alone, different strokes for different folks.
I taught a campus bible study for 3 semesters while at PV and had both encouragers AND haters.
The haters, or critical people we called the "doctrine police." They don't teach, they don't go door to door, they don't do charities, they don't lead people to Christ. ALL they do is criticize what other people do; who are actually trying & rep 4 christ. That's how some people on this message board I think are. Criticize another's style of ministry, and they have NO real ministry themselves. They use the bible to win arguments, rather than to win souls.
Oh well, is what it is, etc
Answer: The Holy Ghost. That same Spirit that inspired men to write ALL of scripture; who has the mind of Christ; who distributes the gifts in the Body; who is eternal from beginning to end; whom Jesus promised would lead and guide us into all truth; who would continue to inspire scripture after Paul was dead.
1 Cor 2:9-16If I understand Paul correctly here, the Holy Ghost will continually bring us revelation - at least until we are face-to-face with God.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard , neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
We know that 10 of Paul's epistles were written after this, so he continued to receive revelation. We know that 6 epistles (including both of Peter's) by 3 other writers were written after this so they continued to receive revelation. We know that the Revelation of Jesus Christ as recorded by John came still later.
Brother, I did not write this.
Acts 2:16-18Joel prophecied that the time would come (revelation) and Peter announced that the time had arrived (revelation). What you wrote of Peter above suggests that he renounced what he announced at Pentecost.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
We know (1 Cor 12, 13, 14) that the Holy Ghost began to distribute gifts of prophecy, wisdom, and knowledge - all 3 gifts of revelation - were at work in the Body of Christ and not just the apostles.
I will ask you to go back and read Hebrews 1:1-2 and assess whether it speaks of the Son or the Holy Spirit.
I can find nothing in your scripture references that suggests varying measures of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians speaks that gifts are given and that other gifts may be acquired, but it says nothing of the Spirit being given in distinguishable measures. Help a brother out.
I suspected from your previous posts that this would be the real dividing line between us. Our house of worship (and many others) still experience these sign gifts ... along with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers....Apostles and some others during the early Church had special Gifts and many received new revelation. We do not have any of these sign Gifts; they were given as a confirmation of the Apostles authority for there were no recorded scripture for much of what they were preaching...
I understand the above. You seem to hold a position that the Holy Spirit does not speak anything to us outside of what is in the scriptures....Wisdom teaches us that God is Spirit and His Spirit is the Holy Spirit; thus, the Holy Spirit in time past spoke to Prophets. Attach passage using applied wisdom:
Hebrews 1:1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets
Wisdom teaches us that the Son lived on earth and the Son is God and the Son is the Word made flesh. We also know that the Son’s life revealed and fulfilled many of the things concealed in the Old Testament. Now He speaks to us via Himself, His Word with the guide of His promise Spirit.
Hebrews 1:2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
John 1:14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
We must always view scripture in light of the Whole Counsel of God (Genesis-Revelation)...
You seem to violate your own premise here by concluding at all. How do you jump from Jesus receiving the Holy Ghost without measure to the rest of us receiving varying measures? It would be appropriate (and accurate) to conclude that the rest of us receive less than the measure that Jesus did; but where is the counsel of scripture that would even suggest that you would receive a different measure than I, Dr. H, nevaehinvesting or Paul, the apostle?...Again, wisdom must be applied. If Jesus was given the Holy Spirit without measure, one must conclude that the work of the Spirit or the Spirit is given at a varying degree or measure. If the power of the Holy Spirit destroyed two liars and did not killed me when I lie one must conclude that it varies in some manner.
Although Christ was God and had the Holy Spirit without measure, there is a mystery how He was able to be in the presence of sinful man. The Bible teaches us that A Holy God in His True Holiness cannot be in the presence of sinful man without destroying man.
Exodus 33:20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
This is my explanation, add it with the scripture references I posted earlier, such is my view. If you are looking for a Biblical Passage, which states “varying degrees of the work of the Holy Spirit ”, I will send it to you when I find passages with the words “Trinity and Rapture”...
We know that trinity nor rapture were even coined at the time of the KJV, so they won't be in there. The can be found in some very modern translations. More to the point, I am not looking for “varying degrees of the work of the Holy Spirit ” at all. I have already covered that. I am looking for your scriptural support of a concept that the any two believers receive a different measure [your word of choice] of the Holy Ghost.......This is my explanation, add it with the scripture references I posted earlier, such is my view. If you are looking for a Biblical Passage, which states “varying degrees of the work of the Holy Spirit ”, I will send it to you when I find passages with the words “Trinity and Rapture”...
Again, wisdom must be applied. If Jesus was given the Holy Spirit without measure, one must conclude that the work of the Spirit or the Spirit is given at a varying degree or measure. If the power of the Holy Spirit destroyed two liars and did not killed me when I lie one must conclude that it varies in some manner.
This is my explanation, add it with the scripture references I posted earlier, such is my view. If you are looking for a Biblical Passage, which states “varying degrees of the work of the Holy Spirit â€, I will send it to you when I find passages with the words “Trinity and Raptureâ€.
Good Day and God Bless
Although Christ was God and had the Holy Spirit without measure, there is a mystery how He was able to be in the presence of sinful man. The Bible teaches us that A Holy God in His True Holiness cannot be in the presence of sinful man without destroying man.
Exodus 33:20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.