Black preachers who 'whoop' -- minstrels or ministers?

[illinijag]

As for 1 Cor 9:20-23, Paul makes identification with whoopin' in his first statement, though indirectly. Paul was a Pharisee (Acts 23, Acts 26, Philippians 3) and the Pharisees were whoopers. Paul had the liberty to address the Jews as a Pharisee would and he had the candor to address the Gentiles as a teacher would that he might gain some of each.

In 1 Cor 2:4-5 (which happens to be the thematic scripture for my own ministry) Paul simply says that his speaking and preaching were followed with signs and wonders (Acts 2:22, 2:43, 5:12, 14:3, Romans 15:19); that God's approval on what he preached was substantiated by the manifestation of his presence following that preaching. The Gnostics, who were constantly after the Corinthians, pontificated profusely without such manifestations. The statement is clearly directed toward their ministering: enticing words of man's wisdom. They could talk a good game, but God was not confirming what they were saying in this manner. On the other hand, Paul went on this way:

Phil 3:3-14
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee ; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.​

When he needed to be eloquent, he was. When he needed a sing-song type of the presentation, he delivered it. When he needed to express his passion, he did so...and God confirmed it.

Some people seem to be of the opinion that the content of what whooper is saying is necessarily of the flesh. I want to encourage those persons to pay closer attention.

And ... in answer to the question of the thread ... preachers who whoop - Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, African, Australian (I haven't had the pleasure of hearing an Native American or Eskimos yet) - are both ministers and minstrels.

Dac.....Dac....Dac...

You know you did not provide anything to support that Paul Whooped. You only added to your unsupported statement by stating that "the Pharisees also were whoopers". Where and How do you find evidence of this...Do you just dream it up:lol:.

However, there is edification in your post. Thanks for the string of scriptures (Acts 2:22, 2:43, 5:12, 14:3, Romans 15:19) they provide good reference for the Apostolic sign gifts. The Phil 3:3-14 passage explains well how Paul and we should value (or devalue) the works of the flesh and value more that which is of Christ.

Many years ago when I was on the fast track to hell, I attended Blackbelt training for work, one the consistent statement was "except for Jesus, everyone else must bring DATA". This statement simply imply that only that which can be supported by valid data should be consider relevant to any process. As Christains, should we also ask the same?

:lecturene man's unsupported statement becomes another man's doctrine, such is how a "tradition of man theology" is born.

To all Christians: Before we make a statement about spiritual things, we should consider "What if someone asked, Where is that supported by scripture". If we can not meet this threshold, we should present our statement only to be an assumption and not as Biblical fact. We can not expect God to support us, if we fail to use HIS word as our support.


Good Day and God Bless

 

[illinijag]

I have no problem with whooping as long as the message is being delivered in a clear manner. I have heard some pastors whoop and not really say much other than some cliche statements and it just wasn't my preference. I will never knock a man of God for his preaching style though. The church that I used to attend in the DC area had a really young preacher, who would try to whoop and just sound silly. I basically ignored it. However, I left that church because he never really went in depth during his sermons. The church I go to now also has a young preacher but he doesn't whoop.

I will also say this. I now see the value of having a pastor with formal education.

Formal Education is never a bad thing for the Holy Spirit can use all things. The Holy Spirit is what provides revelation through all means of grace (one being a formal education). Apostle Paul was educated by great men, but it was by the revelation of Christ he attributed His knowledge. Paul's formal education drove him to persecute Christ elect, the education given to him by Christ was used to saved Christ's elect.

Galatians 1:11-12. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Christ left us His Spirit to teach US.

Ponder this:

1 Corinthians 1:26-29. For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

or just consider the 12 scholars Jesus chose to be His disciples. Thus, when we look at how God do things, we often have to throw the world view OUT THE WINDOW.

We only need to subject all teachers (all things) to the word of God.....this is our security..

Good Day and God Bless

 

[illinijag]

common sense would tell you pick up your bible and read it yourself instead of trying to listen to someone who isn't meek and humble...

This seems to be common logic. However, Can common sense or common logic seek things of God?

These are facts about the common man (or natural man), with common sense using common logic:

Romans 3:10-11. As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is not common sense but the spirit of God (indewelling Holy Spirit) that leads man to seek God's Word. We just need to plant the seed....and let God do the rest. Many may not have the Holy Spirit (salvation) that wills him/her to read.

1 Corinthians 2:11b. even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

This things may seems harsh but are founded on Biblical facts.

Good Day and God Bless

 

[SUJagFan]

Another religious topic where dacon has completely missed the underlying principle.

Interesting.

 

[dacontinent]

Dac.....Dac....Dac...

You know you did not provide anything to support that Paul Whooped. You only added to your unsupported statement by stating that "the Pharisees also were whoopers". Where and How do you find evidence of this...Do you just dream it up:lol:.

However, there is edification in your post. Thanks for the string of scriptures (Acts 2:22, 2:43, 5:12, 14:3, Romans 15:19) they provide good reference for the Apostolic sign gifts. The Phil 3:3-14 passage explains well how Paul and we should value (or devalue) the works of the flesh and value more that which is of Christ.

Many years ago when I was on the fast track to hell, I attended Blackbelt training for work, one the consistent statement was "except for Jesus, everyone else must bring DATA". This statement simply imply that only that which can be supported by valid data should be consider relevant to any process. As Christains, should we also ask the same?

:lecturene man's unsupported statement becomes another man's doctrine, such is how a "tradition of man theology" is born.

To all Christians: Before we make a statement about spiritual things, we should consider "What if someone asked, Where is that supported by scripture". If we can not meet this threshold, we should present our statement only to be an assumption and not as Biblical fact. We can not expect God to support us, if we fail to use HIS word as our support.


Good Day and God Bless

illinijag,

You have to study the culture of the Pharisees, and there is really not very much about it in the scriptures. About as close as we get beyond the references that I have already give is Matthew 6:5 & Luke 18:9-12. We know that they were very loud and demonstrative (whooping) in everything they did publicly, and they cantored (whooping) in doing a great deal of that in order to give their statements a flair of spirituality.

There is an awful lot to be gained from studying the scriptures, and that is an absolute must. However, there are elements that are assumed in the scriptures because of the the target audience that are often missed because one does not also study the culture of that target audience.

 

[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

illinijag,

You have to study the culture of the Pharisees, and there is really not very much about it in the scriptures. About as close as we get beyond the references that I have already give is Matthew 6:5 & Luke 18:9-12. We know that they were very loud and demonstrative (whooping) in everything they did publicly, and they cantored (whooping) in doing a great deal of that in order to give their statements a flair of spirituality.

Do we really? Unless we have audible recordings from their speeches your point is based on insufficient data. You are pushing a claim in a manner that is similar to what some preachers do in Church; they say things that are not supported by scripture and many of their members repeat such claims with their added unsupported statement. When we speak of things not in scripture we are often led away from the primary focus, which is Christ. This is the thrust of this Thread, things (whooping) that provide no value, but offers a distraction that allows us to take our focus away from Christ.

Now, if I followed your instructions and study the life/culture of the Pharisees, what spiritual value would that provide? Would it be better to focus on Christ? We all have characteristics similar to the Pharisees; we need to study someone who does not (Christ).

It is ironic that you would use Matthew 6:5 & Luke 18:9-12 to attribute the Pharisees manner of praying to whooping. The reality of these passages clearly shows that the Pharisees actions were done to be seen of men. So even in your not-so-convincing-way of linking these passages to whooping, I guess you are saying that whoopin also seek praises of men; if so, there maybe some truth here that we both can agree upon.:clap:

There is an awful lot to be gained from studying the scriptures, and that is an absolute must. However, there are elements that are assumed in the scriptures because of the the target audience that are often missed because one does not also study the culture of that target audience.

If we have Christ and the things that accompany Him (His Spirit), irregardless of our environment or culture in which we live, we will have all we need to obtain what we need. You are correct, there are many things not mentioned in scripture and I bet many have become wise men studying and writing about those things. John even said that there were much done, yet not written:

John 21:25. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

So I ask this question: If God saw no need to include these things in Scripture (Jesus undocumented miracles and the culture of the Pharisees), Do we really need them? By knowing or teaching these things (which can not be supported by scripture) do they edify ones self more than Christ? If we need things outside of Biblical truth to find Christ, Christ and His Father failed us by not including them in scripture. Thus, this passage is a lie:

2 Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

:retard:…I am just a fool who not only reads this stuff…I ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT.

Good Day and God Bless

 

[nevaehinvesting]

There's alot of different teaching and preaching styles ordained by God. My preacher doesn't whoop he just straight talks "teaches" and people still criticize him ALL the time. I grew up in a baptist church tho and that guy whooped every week, which was fine, and people criticized him too.

End of the day, are people being helped? Are people getting saved? I don't mean just YOU; but anyone? Answer usually yes, so leave them alone, different strokes for different folks.

I taught a campus bible study for 3 semesters while at PV and had both encouragers AND haters.

The haters, or critical people we called the "doctrine police." They don't teach, they don't go door to door, they don't do charities, they don't lead people to Christ. ALL they do is criticize what other people do; who are actually trying & rep 4 christ. That's how some people on this message board I think are. Criticize another's style of ministry, and they have NO real ministry themselves. They use the bible to win arguments, rather than to win souls.

Oh well, is what it is, etc

 

[Paul Dolemite Taylor]

There's alot of different teaching and preaching styles ordained by God. My preacher doesn't whoop he just straight talks "teaches" and people still criticize him ALL the time. I grew up in a baptist church tho and that guy whooped every week, which was fine, and people criticized him too.

End of the day, are people being helped? Are people getting saved? I don't mean just YOU; but anyone? Answer usually yes, so leave them alone, different strokes for different folks.

I taught a campus bible study for 3 semesters while at PV and had both encouragers AND haters.

The haters, or critical people we called the "doctrine police." They don't teach, they don't go door to door, they don't do charities, they don't lead people to Christ. ALL they do is criticize what other people do; who are actually trying & rep 4 christ. That's how some people on this message board I think are. Criticize another's style of ministry, and they have NO real ministry themselves. They use the bible to win arguments, rather than to win souls.

Oh well, is what it is, etc

Amen!!!!!! I like different styles. Joel Osteen doesn't whoop but he has good messages. I can look at GE Patterson youtube clips all day long. He was outstanding. I guess I like good preaching that hits home.

 

[Tiger1]

There's alot of different teaching and preaching styles ordained by God. My preacher doesn't whoop he just straight talks "teaches" and people still criticize him ALL the time. I grew up in a baptist church tho and that guy whooped every week, which was fine, and people criticized him too.

End of the day, are people being helped? Are people getting saved? I don't mean just YOU; but anyone? Answer usually yes, so leave them alone, different strokes for different folks.

I taught a campus bible study for 3 semesters while at PV and had both encouragers AND haters.

The haters, or critical people we called the "doctrine police." They don't teach, they don't go door to door, they don't do charities, they don't lead people to Christ. ALL they do is criticize what other people do; who are actually trying & rep 4 christ. That's how some people on this message board I think are. Criticize another's style of ministry, and they have NO real ministry themselves. They use the bible to win arguments, rather than to win souls.

Oh well, is what it is, etc

Good place for an Amen!!! :clap:

 

[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

There's alot of different teaching and preaching styles ordained by God. My preacher doesn't whoop he just straight talks "teaches" and people still criticize him ALL the time. I grew up in a baptist church tho and that guy whooped every week, which was fine, and people criticized him too.

End of the day, are people being helped? Are people getting saved? I don't mean just YOU; but anyone? Answer usually yes, so leave them alone, different strokes for different folks.

I taught a campus bible study for 3 semesters while at PV and had both encouragers AND haters.

The haters, or critical people we called the "doctrine police." They don't teach, they don't go door to door, they don't do charities, they don't lead people to Christ. ALL they do is criticize what other people do; who are actually trying & rep 4 christ. That's how some people on this message board I think are. Criticize another's style of ministry, and they have NO real ministry themselves. They use the bible to win arguments, rather than to win souls.

Oh well, is what it is, etc

nevaehinvesting,

For the most part, your post has a lot of merit but I ask you. Where did God Say "There's alot of different teaching and preaching styles ordained by God"?

Where is this written? Should we say that God ordains lots of different teaching and preaching without His statment of Such?

If Tiger1 and STC_60 start telling people that "There's alot of different teaching and preaching styles ordained by God" could they source their reference from God's Word?

When you say alot, you open the door to any and when you attribute it as ordained by God, you are making a claim that God did not make. Becarful, because others (as Tiger1 and STC_60) will run with your statement as though it is Bibilical Fact.

Exodus 20:7. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

:lecture:It is best for us to do the verifying (read His word) and let God ordain who and what He will.

Good Day and God Bless

 

[Dr H..]

Does whooping cause one to focus more on man or more on Christ? Is the whooping a distraction for some?

jag you need to stop! Yes it's a distraction for most and it directs the attention from Christ to the man.

 

[nevaehinvesting]

Illinijag,

Let me 1st say that I enjoy & agree with 95% of your posts on here

When I say “a lot” of teaching/preaching styles ordained by God I mean that He (God) carries out His Will, His Word, His Ministry in “a lot” of completely different ways whether it’s preaching, teaching, music, healing, miracles, praying, etc. All these things will be done (and have been done) in different ways and styles by different Christians since bible days, which is fine.

Examples of styles, variations, differences, etc:

BIBLICAL HEALING:
It can be done by faith alone for a paralytic man, or touching a robe to heal a woman, or mixing spit with dirt to heal a blind man, or by just a spoken word for someone else.

*The guy above that was healed by faith alone CANNOT look down at or criticize the guy who needed spit and dirt for his healing JUST because it was different. The woman above who had to fight a crowd and touch Jesus’ robe to be healed SHOULD NOT feel less than the guy who was healed from just a simple spoken word.

***But Christians today see differences like those as reasons for separation, arguments, judging, etc instead of just praising God that He healed someone ***

TEACHING / GOD’S WILL in general:
It can be done in a small church (Luke 4:16) or at a small house (Act 20:20) or in a mega-church setting with thousands of people (Matt ch 13). It can be done in a whooping environment with loud instruments (Psalms) and dancing (David) or quiet environment with no movement. God’s styles of teaching His people included using a donkey, Moses’ staff, a burning bush, a fig tree, controlling waves, personal teaching, corporate preaching, forcefully casting out demons or just fasting for them to leave, teaching from scripture (scrolls) or just telling parables. Some of everything.

God chooses to to be so versatile when it comes to His ministry because people are different who he ministers to. That’s why He’s given so many different meaningful names in scripture (Elohim, Jehovah Jirah, El Rah) – because He is for people whatever they need Him to be. Versatile. That’s also why Paul says “to the Jew I become Jew, to the Gentile I become Gentile.” Because we are like God, versatile. That includes music, teaching, etc, all ministry.

Different styles should be celebrated, not condemned, especially when people are being saved/helped. Whoopers, keep whoopin. U distracted? then go to one of the millions of other churches that don't whoop.

 

[Tiger1]

Illinijag,

Let me 1st say that I enjoy & agree with 95% of your posts on here

When I say “a lot” of teaching/preaching styles ordained by God I mean that He (God) carries out His Will, His Word, His Ministry in “a lot” of completely different ways whether it’s preaching, teaching, music, healing, miracles, praying, etc. All these things will be done (and have been done) in different ways and styles by different Christians since bible days, which is fine.

Examples of styles, variations, differences, etc:

BIBLICAL HEALING:
It can be done by faith alone for a paralytic man, or touching a robe to heal a woman, or mixing spit with dirt to heal a blind man, or by just a spoken word for someone else.

*The guy above that was healed by faith alone CANNOT look down at or criticize the guy who needed spit and dirt for his healing JUST because it was different. The woman above who had to fight a crowd and touch Jesus’ robe to be healed SHOULD NOT feel less than the guy who was healed from just a simple spoken word.

***But Christians today see differences like those as reasons for separation, arguments, judging, etc instead of just praising God that He healed someone ***

TEACHING / GOD’S WILL in general:
It can be done in a small church (Luke 4:16) or at a small house (Act 20:20) or in a mega-church setting with thousands of people (Matt ch 13). It can be done in a whooping environment with loud instruments (Psalms) and dancing (David) or quiet environment with no movement. God’s styles of teaching His people included using a donkey, Moses’ staff, a burning bush, a fig tree, controlling waves, personal teaching, corporate preaching, forcefully casting out demons or just fasting for them to leave, teaching from scripture (scrolls) or just telling parables. Some of everything.

God chooses to to be so versatile when it comes to His ministry because people are different who he ministers to. That’s why He’s given so many different meaningful names in scripture (Elohim, Jehovah Jirah, El Rah) – because He is for people whatever they need Him to be. Versatile. That’s also why Paul says “to the Jew I become Jew, to the Gentile I become Gentile.” Because we are like God, versatile. That includes music, teaching, etc, all ministry.

Different styles should be celebrated, not condemned, especially when people are being saved/helped. Whoopers, keep whoopin. U distracted? then go to one of the millions of other churches that don't whoop.

HA!!!

Good place for a SHOUT!!! :weee:

Speak Holy Spirit!!! :clap:

 

[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

God chooses to to be so versatile when it comes to His ministry because people are different who he ministers to. That’s why He’s given so many different meaningful names in scripture (Elohim, Jehovah Jirah, El Rah) – because He is for people whatever they need Him to be. Versatile. That’s also why Paul says “to the Jew I become Jew, to the Gentile I become Gentile.â€￾ Because we are like God, versatile. That includes music, teaching, etc, all ministry.

Different styles should be celebrated, not condemned, especially when people are being saved/helped. Whoopers, keep whoopin. U distracted? then go to one of the millions of other churches that don't whoop.

nevaehinvesting.

In your original post, had you stated " I think there's alot of different teaching and preaching styles ordained by God" as opposed to "There's alot of different teaching and preaching styles ordained by God" it would not have concerned me. However, after thinking more about your statement and reconciling it with scripture, I am more convinced that God does not promotes nor has He any regard for any style.

.....just walk with me through my accessement...

We know that presentation, style, outward appearance and format are used to attract (i.e. to bring attention to) such is true in the local Church, Corporate America and the world. Now, let us look at those who received the extra ordinary call from God (direct call for God) to promote His Kingdom (not your everyday preacher who would say he/she has been called or the pastor who God gave the responcibility to the local Church to select):

Moses: A meek shepard with little or no style with no public speaking skills

Exodus 4:10-11. And Moses said unto the Lord, O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. And the Lord said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the Lord?

David: When Samuel was looking for King Saul replacement, he was looking for status/style that was consistent with man's view of a king.

1 Samuel 16:7. But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

John the Baptist: Don't need a lot of comment here, His style would be totally rejected by man.

Matthew 3:1-4 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

JESUS: God purposely made Him to have no style (wordly attractiveness).

Isaiah 53:2-3. For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Based on Scripture and not because man have various styles, it is clear to me that God ordain CONTENT (content being His Word and that which is supported by His Word) and not style, whooping, or presentation man may provide. Those He called He selected because they had not those thing that man desires. Why? Because man love all things that pleases the flesh. That which is pleasing to the flesh will not edity the Chruch, it will entertain and cause more focus to be on man than on God.

These are supporting passages:

1 Corinthians 1:27-29. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Luke 16:15. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Nothing foolish, weak or base has a style favorable to man. Yet man esteem that which is stylish.

In conclusion, I would say that God does not use those worldly means (style, whooping, presentation and etc.), He uses man and bless man IN SPITE OF those things.

Thanks nevaehinvesting, had you not made that statement in your original post, this would not have been reveal to me.

Good Day and God Bless.

 

[illinijag]

HA!!!

Good place for a SHOUT!!! :weee:

Speak Holy Spirit!!! :clap:

Tiger1 for some reason you always make me smile, I guess I admire the fact that you are always engaged in Prayer Board discussions....

:lecture: Subject All things to Scripture ....

Good Day and God Bless

 

[Unknowm]

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[dacontinent]

...Do we really? Unless we have audible recordings from their speeches your point is based on insufficient data. You are pushing a claim in a manner that is similar to what some preachers do in Church; they say things that are not supported by scripture and many of their members repeat such claims with their added unsupported statement. When we speak of things not in scripture we are often led away from the primary focus, which is Christ. This is the thrust of this Thread, things (whooping) that provide no value, but offers a distraction that allows us to take our focus away from Christ.

Now, if I followed your instructions and study the life/culture of the Pharisees, what spiritual value would that provide? Would it be better to focus on Christ? We all have characteristics similar to the Pharisees; we need to study someone who does not (Christ).

Yes, we do (2 Tim 2:15). Understanding the culture gives us quite a bit of enlightenment to the points being made. Take the story of the prodigal son. For years I missed a significant part of understanding the story because I did not understand that in Jewish culture for the son to request the inheritance from his father was to literally have the father to declare himself dead. What a slap in the face! The consequence was for the father to then declare the son dead after granting his request. It takes on even greater meaning when you deal with the son who remained at his father's side.

If one does not understand that culture and target audiences of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John respectively, that person can miss an awful lot and become confused, disillusioned, or both.

Apparently you have assumed that whooping provides you value. I think that assessment might simply be your personal valuation while others find it authentic, insightful, and edifying.

We need to study the lives of all the people that Jesus and the authors encountered. We will encounter those same spirits in our lifetimes and have to be prepared to deal with them in the culture in which we are operating (our own or possibly that of others). These things were not just written for us to be able to address our own personal situations, but we must address the lives of others.

...It is ironic that you would use Matthew 6:5 & Luke 18:9-12 to attribute the Pharisees manner of praying to whooping. The reality of these passages clearly shows that the Pharisees actions were done to be seen of men. So even in your not-so-convincing-way of linking these passages to whooping, I guess you are saying that whoopin also seek praises of men; if so, there maybe some truth here that we both can agree upon.:clap:

I am certain that there are whoopers and non-whoopers alike who seek the praise of men for their particular penchant. That neither validates one nor the other. That the Pharisees used it and people recognized and responded to it is my point.

...If we have Christ and the things that accompany Him (His Spirit), irregardless of our environment or culture in which we live, we will have all we need to obtain what we need.

Yes and no. If we have Christ, eternity is ours. However, the more we give the Spirit to work with, the more He we produce from us. I have experienced some wonderful preachers who were simply illiterate who became much better preachers and much more fruitful just from learning to read.

...So I ask this question: If God saw no need to include these things in Scripture (Jesus undocumented miracles and the culture of the Pharisees), Do we really need them? By knowing or teaching these things (which can not be supported by scripture) do they edify ones self more than Christ? If we need things outside of Biblical truth to find Christ, Christ and His Father failed us by not including them in scripture. Thus, this passage is a lie:

2 Timothy 3:16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

:retard:…I am just a fool who not only reads this stuff…I ACTUALLY BELIEVE IT.

Good Day and God Bless

Again, yes, we do need them. They do not edify oneself but they do edify the Body of Christ. God clearly does not tell us everything that we need in scripture. There is a great deal for us to discover through our interaction with the Holy Spirit. It happened for that apostles in the first century and it should be happening to us today. It is the Holy Spirit's task to lead and guide us into all truth (Jn 16:13; 1 Cor 2:9-12).

 

[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

Yes, we do (2 Tim 2:15). Understanding the culture gives us quite a bit of enlightenment to the points being made.

2 Timothy 2:15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The above passage applies to the Word of Truth, The Bible. It has nothing to do with the culture of Pharisee nor does it imply the study of things outside of scripture. External documents are things that enhance man's wisdom and is esteem high in some circles, only if you can reconciled these things to scripture do they have any value.

You are basically saying the Bible lacks what man need for salvation and this clearly proves that you do not believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17, you can't believe both.

It is the Holy Spirit's task to lead and guide us into all truth (Jn 16:13; 1 Cor 2:9-12).

Again, you just can’t say or post what you want and expect people to believe it. These passages DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, so let us look at them:

John 16:13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

All truth finds its foundation in the Bible! Truth is the Character of God, upon which Righteousness and Justice/Judgment reside. Any and all that reconciles itself as Truth must be Subjected to Scripture. TRUTH IS FOUND IN THE BIBLE. Thus all of this stuff you say, must somehow be reconciled back to scripture...given this fact, why not just read Scripture. God did say " That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:17)" by reading “the word of truth (i.e. Bible)â€￾.

1 Corinthians 2:9-12. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

The above passage simply states that only those with the Holy Spirit can understand Spritual things. We Christians have the Holy Spirit and things that were not reveal/seen by men in time past are revealed now to us (Christain) via the Holy Spirit.

I do not know why you post this passage...but I will try to respond relative the your common theme that the Bible is not enough for Christian to live a Holy Life.

Again, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, His ear is To Christ, and He will show things of Christ such is revealed through Scripture. If we read Scripture with the aid of the Holy Spirit, life itself will reveal things of Christ (Truth). This passage does not support the need to study documents or cultures outside of scripture.

Now the Bible Clearly states that the Bible provides enough to equip all Saints with what is needed to live under sanctification; yet, you imply that it does not. I will stay with the Bible and continue to believe what is written. The Bible has proven to lack NOTHING I need.

Be careful of all of that un-inspired reading, for a lot of it can not be reconciled with Truth (God's Word); faith attached to that which is not of God is faith attached to another Righteousness (self-righteousness) such would be as standing on sinking sand.

2 John 1:10-11. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The Study of anything for spiritual insight, which cannot be supported by scripture, is to allow potential error to be used as fact, such is to seek fables.

1 Timothy 1 4-5. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Timothy 1:4-5 proves this whole line of discussion to be futile. You stated that the Pharisees were Whoopers. I asked you to prove it with scripture. You gave me passages that did not (1 Cor 9:20-23), for only an audio version of such could prove your point. Given that you could not prove it with scripture, you offered up non- Biblical documents “study the culture of the Phariseesâ€￾ as proof. We know that any non-Biblical documents will only render more questions, which cannot be proven by scripture and thus provides NO GODLY EDIFICATION.

:lecture:Why would any man use stuff not support by scripture as a teaching tool, when the Bible abounds in support of things that are useful for spiritual edification? This is a mystery to me, a mystery I care not to understand and I thank God that I do not follow not do I support it. SUBJECT ALL THINGS TO SCRIPTURE…

Good Day and God Bless

 

[nevaehinvesting]

Illinijag

God awesomely uses His church teachers in different ways, with different gifts, different personalities, etc not “in spite of” as you say but rather “because of.” Because of- me, you, and everybody ‘responds’ differently to teaching styles. Some people respond well to fire & brimstone teaching, but not everybody. Some people respond well to sermons with a lot of personal stories, but everybody. Some respond well to emotional messages, others just like blank faces. Loud music vs hear a pin drop, etc…

IN THE BIBLE
Jesus did a lot of teaching. Around 15 documented subjects in the Gospels and around 40 parables (stories) used by Jesus to explain those 15 subjects. He quoted scripture (it is written) sometimes, but not a whole lot. Overall, He had relaxed sermons (when He wasn’t overturning tables) with practical teaching for everyday life.

So His ministry was: Relaxed easy teaching + quote a few scriptures + tell A LOT of stories. That was Jesus’ style of teaching. That’s like Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer today.

ALSO IN THE BIBLE
Peter & Paul. They seemed to be more “in your face” with ministry. Less patience. Not a lot of nice parables like Jesus. They usually kept it straight Heaven & Hell. Very direct. Paul called out specific people publically when they sinned whether it was hypocritical Peter in Galatians 2 or the Christians in Corinthians who were committing sexual immorality.

Peter, sword, you know. They were direct, in your face without the nice stories & parables, at times just Heaven vs Hell take it or leave it style of teaching. Jesus helped the adulterous woman who was called out in front of everyone whereas Paul was the one calling them out.

TEACHERS / PREACHERS TODAY
Just like in the bible, some teachers today seem to be more story tellers with just a few scriptures. Others seem to be a lot more fire & brimstone (you going to hell if you don’t change 2day!). Some services are relaxed and you can hear a pin drop in their service. Others are a lot more lively. Both are needed to capture different types of people. I’ve seen both types of styles / presentations save & help people.

**It’s silly for the two different types (styles) of service to criticize each other. We’re the boy of Christ. Arms, legs, back, hands, feet, etc. When the feet criticize the arms for being different, it’s silly. God doesn’t use the foot “in spite of” it being a foot. He uses the foot “because” it’s the foot.

**Even our swacpage posting back and forth like this is for edification (should be), so it’s teaching. Your style is posting a lot of scriptures to get your point across. My style is to post 1 or 2 scriptures and expound more. Others may just post youtube clips of other pastors that they like to get their point across. It’s all teaching, just different ways (styles) to do it. Same with in churches….***

INFACT
I’ve met (been around) Christians my whole life. I’ve seen some of my friends, family, co-workers, strangers, etc accept Jesus as Savior. This is awesome to me because a lot of them came from different backgrounds, religions, beliefs, and parts of the world. Crazy thing is, most accepted Jesus at various types of churches as far as style (of course all Christian churches) but we wound up in the same spot in the end now, *with Jesus.* Some of my friends don't get much from my pastor's teaching but they love their own pastor of course and vice versus. That's fine.

For some people that’s not good enough. Salvation is only good to them if it happens without whooping, or without music, or without a women being involved, or without etc. Nevermind the fact they saved

Oh well, Let’s go save somebody….!

 

[Kendrick]

I recently changed churches. Today my mom asked me if the congregation at the new church I go to now "gets happy," was the message spirit-filled and anointed? I said no one "got happy," and I understood or was drawn to what the preacher was attempting to convey in his message. The preacher doesn't "whoop." He speaks with emphasis, however.

He uses scriptures from the OT and NT to explain his points. And there was no soft playing piano or drum melodies in the background near the end. He just ends his message with "Thank you for your time." It is more of a class-like atmosphere than the standard churches most people attend each week.

 

[dacontinent]

2 Timothy 2:15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The above passage applies to the Word of Truth, The Bible. It has nothing to do with the culture of Pharisee nor does it imply the study of things outside of scripture. External documents are things that enhance man's wisdom and is esteem high in some circles, only if you can reconciled these things to scripture do they have any value.

You are basically saying the Bible lacks what man need for salvation and this clearly proves that you do not believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17, you can't believe both.

The above passage does apply to the ABILITY to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth - the Bible. However, it doesn't say anything about limiting your study to the Bible. Just think about how much science has uncovered to validate THE TRUTH of God's Word that would be missed by studying ONLY the Bible. Think about the things that can be gained through STUDYING by natural observation. Do we not inlcude them? Jesus used agricultural analogies in his parables because those things had been proven through STUDY by an agrarian society. Ninety percent of the western world that you and I engage wouldn't know wheat if they were walking through a field of it. We must take the elements that apply currently and relate those things to those that Jesus taught. We do that through STUDY so we can RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth. I hope that is plain to see.

As for 1 Tim 3:16-17, it only accentuates the position that I hold. The scripture is absolutely correct. Now go and preach the the people in the rain forests about wheat.

Again, you just can’t say or post what you want and expect people to believe it. These passages DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, so let us look at them:

John 16:13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

All truth finds its foundation in the Bible! Truth is the Character of God, upon which Righteousness and Justice/Judgment reside. Any and all that reconciles itself as Truth must be Subjected to Scripture. TRUTH IS FOUND IN THE BIBLE. Thus all of this stuff you say, must somehow be reconciled back to scripture...given this fact, why not just read Scripture. God did say " That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:17)" by reading “the word of truth (i.e. Bible)”.

1 Corinthians 2:9-12. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

The above passage simply states that only those with the Holy Spirit can understand Spritual things. We Christians have the Holy Spirit and things that were not reveal/seen by men in time past are revealed now to us (Christain) via the Holy Spirit.

I do not know why you post this passage...but I will try to respond relative the your common theme that the Bible is not enough for Christian to live a Holy Life.

Again, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, His ear is To Christ, and He will show things of Christ such is revealed through Scripture. If we read Scripture with the aid of the Holy Spirit, life itself will reveal things of Christ (Truth). This passage does not support the need to study documents or cultures outside of scripture.

Now the Bible Clearly states that the Bible provides enough to equip all Saints with what is needed to live under sanctification; yet, you imply that it does not. I will stay with the Bible and continue to believe what is written. The Bible has proven to lack NOTHING I need.

Be careful of all of that un-inspired reading, for a lot of it can not be reconciled with Truth (God's Word); faith attached to that which is not of God is faith attached to another Righteousness (self-righteousness) such would be as standing on sinking sand.

2 John 1:10-11. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The Study of anything for spiritual insight, which cannot be supported by scripture, is to allow potential error to be used as fact, such is to seek fables.

1 Timothy 1 4-5. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Timothy 1:4-5 proves this whole line of discussion to be futile. You stated that the Pharisees were Whoopers. I asked you to prove it with scripture. You gave me passages that did not (1 Cor 9:20-23), for only an audio version of such could prove your point. Given that you could not prove it with scripture, you offered up non- Biblical documents “study the culture of the Pharisees” as proof. We know that any non-Biblical documents will only render more questions, which cannot be proven by scripture and thus provides NO GODLY EDIFICATION.

:lecture:Why would any man use stuff not support by scripture as a teaching tool, when the Bible abounds in support of things that are useful for spiritual edification? This is a mystery to me, a mystery I care not to understand and I thank God that I do not follow not do I support it. SUBJECT ALL THINGS TO SCRIPTURE…

Good Day and God Bless

Brother, there is a difference between the Bible being all true (and it is) and the Bible containing all truth (which it does not). Let me keep it really simple: there is plenty of truth about Jesus that is not written in the scripture - as you cited in John 21:25. If that is true of God made flesh, it is most certainly true of God as Spirit. Hence, part of the thrill of our walk with the Lord is the revelation of those types of things.

I have no theme that the Bible is not enough to live a Holy life. That perspective of me is your opinion and not anything that I have ever said in my entire life. What I have said is that the more we know gives the Spirit more to work with through us. Because the carnal mind is enmity with God (Romans 8), those with it CANNOT understand the Word. The Word, itself, tells us that just being able to relate the Word to those people will not work! We must have knowledge of things not in the Word in order to make the things of the Word relevent to those people. For those purposes we must study things other than the word.

Please understand that by studying other things it is not implying that those other things be used for doctrine, reproof, rebuke, and instruction in righteousness.

According to the account in Acts 17, Paul did not use any scripture in relating to those he preached to on Mars Hill. He preached on what they did relate to - the UNKNOWN GOD. He was able to relate because the Holy Spirit illuminated to him what he had studied of the Greeks.

For the record, I have not offered any non-Biblical documents at all.

 

[dacontinent]

2 Timothy 2:15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The above passage applies to the Word of Truth, The Bible. It has nothing to do with the culture of Pharisee nor does it imply the study of things outside of scripture. External documents are things that enhance man's wisdom and is esteem high in some circles, only if you can reconciled these things to scripture do they have any value.

You are basically saying the Bible lacks what man need for salvation and this clearly proves that you do not believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17, you can't believe both.

The above passage does apply to the ABILITY to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth - the Bible. However, it doesn't say anything about limiting your study to the Bible. Just think about how much science has uncovered to validate THE TRUTH of God's Word that would be missed by studying ONLY the Bible. Think about the things that can be gained through STUDYING by natural observation. Do we not inlcude them? Jesus used agricultural analogies in his parables because those things had been proven through STUDY by an agrarian society. Ninety percent of the western world that you and I engage wouldn't know wheat if they were walking through a field of it. We must take the elements that apply currently and relate those things to those that Jesus taught. We do that through STUDY so we can RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth. I hope that is plain to see.

As for 1 Tim 3:16-17, it only accentuates the position that I hold. The scripture is absolutely correct. Now go and preach the the people in the rain forests about wheat.

Again, you just can’t say or post what you want and expect people to believe it. These passages DO NOT SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, so let us look at them:

John 16:13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

All truth finds its foundation in the Bible! Truth is the Character of God, upon which Righteousness and Justice/Judgment reside. Any and all that reconciles itself as Truth must be Subjected to Scripture. TRUTH IS FOUND IN THE BIBLE. Thus all of this stuff you say, must somehow be reconciled back to scripture...given this fact, why not just read Scripture. God did say " That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:17)" by reading “the word of truth (i.e. Bible)”.

1 Corinthians 2:9-12. But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

The above passage simply states that only those with the Holy Spirit can understand Spritual things. We Christians have the Holy Spirit and things that were not reveal/seen by men in time past are revealed now to us (Christain) via the Holy Spirit.

I do not know why you post this passage...but I will try to respond relative the your common theme that the Bible is not enough for Christian to live a Holy Life.

Again, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ, His ear is To Christ, and He will show things of Christ such is revealed through Scripture. If we read Scripture with the aid of the Holy Spirit, life itself will reveal things of Christ (Truth). This passage does not support the need to study documents or cultures outside of scripture.

Now the Bible Clearly states that the Bible provides enough to equip all Saints with what is needed to live under sanctification; yet, you imply that it does not. I will stay with the Bible and continue to believe what is written. The Bible has proven to lack NOTHING I need.

Be careful of all of that un-inspired reading, for a lot of it can not be reconciled with Truth (God's Word); faith attached to that which is not of God is faith attached to another Righteousness (self-righteousness) such would be as standing on sinking sand.

2 John 1:10-11. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The Study of anything for spiritual insight, which cannot be supported by scripture, is to allow potential error to be used as fact, such is to seek fables.

1 Timothy 1 4-5. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

1 Timothy 1:4-5 proves this whole line of discussion to be futile. You stated that the Pharisees were Whoopers. I asked you to prove it with scripture. You gave me passages that did not (1 Cor 9:20-23), for only an audio version of such could prove your point. Given that you could not prove it with scripture, you offered up non- Biblical documents “study the culture of the Pharisees” as proof. We know that any non-Biblical documents will only render more questions, which cannot be proven by scripture and thus provides NO GODLY EDIFICATION.

:lecture:Why would any man use stuff not support by scripture as a teaching tool, when the Bible abounds in support of things that are useful for spiritual edification? This is a mystery to me, a mystery I care not to understand and I thank God that I do not follow not do I support it. SUBJECT ALL THINGS TO SCRIPTURE…

Good Day and God Bless

Brother, there is a difference between the Bible being all true (and it is) and the Bible containing all truth (which it does not). Let me keep it really simple: there is plenty of truth about Jesus that is not written in the scripture - as you cited in John 21:25. If that is true of God made flesh, it is most certainly true of God as Spirit. Hence, part of the thrill of our walk with the Lord is the revelation of those types of things.

I have no theme that the Bible is not enough to live a holy life. That perspective of me is your opinion and not anything that I have ever said in my entire life. What I have said is that the more we know gives the Spirit more to work with through us. Because the carnal mind is enmity with God (Romans 8), those with it CANNOT understand the Word. The Word, itself, tells us that just being able to relate the Word to those people will not work! We must have knowledge of things not in the Word in order to make the things of the Word relevent to those people. For those purposes we must study things other than the Word.

Please understand that by studying other things it is not implying that those other things be used for doctrine, reproof, rebuke, and instruction in righteousness.

According to the account in Acts 17, Paul did not use any scripture in relating to those he preached to on Mars Hill. He preached on what they did relate to - the UNKNOWN GOD. He was able to relate because the Holy Spirit illuminated to him what he had studied of the Greeks.

For the record, I have not offered any non-Biblical documents at all.

 

[southsuburbs]

We know because we have documentation on both.

You have documentation that EVERY Preacher back "then" whooped?!

Really? EVERY? Gone now...smh

 

[Dr H..]

I guess I missed understood bible hermeneutics and exegesis! No going back and looking [History] and at all the scriptures that related to “music and worship” that’s directed toward God.
Mt 26:30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Mr 14:26 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

Ac 16:25 And at midnight Paul and Silas prayed, and sang praises unto God: and the prisoners heard them.

Ro 15:9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Eph 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

10) Jas 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

Praise comes from the lips. Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

There are no instances in the Bible of the church ever using instrumental music to worship God. First Century Church history and scripture provides insight of music that the early church used—singing. There were no, guitars, drums, pianos, organs, dancers, strobe lights etc, etc.

In fact, is the history of the early church fathers is read, they rejected music in the church, other than what’s outlined in the bible.

Clement then says, “The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by which we honour God, is what we employ. We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, and trumpet, and timbrel, and flute….”
“And I further believe that the use of such instruments of music in the Christian Church is without the sanction and against the will of God; that they are subversive of the spirit of true devotion, and that they are sinful.” Adam Clark

Clark also quotes John Wesley as saying, “I have no objections to instruments of music in our chapels, provided they are neither heard nor seen.”

Aa Baptist historian, in his book, Fifty Years Among the Baptists (1859), said, “Staunch old Baptists in former times would have as soon tolerated the Pope of Rome in their pulpits as an organ in their galleries.” David Benedict

 

[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

The above passage does apply to the ABILITY to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth - the Bible. However, it doesn't say anything about limiting your study to the Bible. Just think about how much science has uncovered to validate THE TRUTH of God's Word that would be missed by studying ONLY the Bible. Think about the things that can be gained through STUDYING by natural observation. Do we not inlcude them? Jesus used agricultural analogies in his parables because those things had been proven through STUDY by an agrarian society. Ninety percent of the western world that you and I engage wouldn't know wheat if they were walking through a field of it. We must take the elements that apply currently and relate those things to those that Jesus taught. We do that through STUDY so we can RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth. I hope that is plain to see.

As for 1 Tim 3:16-17, it only accentuates the position that I hold. The scripture is absolutely correct. Now go and preach the the people in the rain forests about wheat..

I did not say this passage stated that we should not study other material beside the Bible. However, any material that cannot be reconciled with the Bible truth is worthless for edification. Such will only provide questionable truth. Even the Western world stuff you speak of, it must to must be reconciled to scripture and not stand alone as a self-supporting doctrine.

I read a lot of material outside the Bible for additional insight, only insight that is supported by scripture can I conclude to be true. Again, the Bible is the foundation source, a source I can stand before God and man with confidence not because of my words but the word of Him whom my faith reside. Speaking of things I have read which cannot be reconciled to God words allow potential error be convey as truth.

1 Thessalonians 5:20. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Brother, there is a difference between the Bible being all true (and it is) and the Bible containing all truth (which it does not). Let me keep it really simple: there is plenty of truth about Jesus that is not written in the scripture - as you cited in John 21:25. If that is true of God made flesh, it is most certainly true of God as Spirit. Hence, part of the thrill of our walk with the Lord is the revelation of those types of things.

That, I do not doubt to be true. I have no reason to doubt that Paul, Peter and Andrew were martyred based and human historical documents. However, given that I can't reconcile it with scripture, I will not convey it as Biblical truth. I will surely never use unsupported statements about Jesus life which is not stated in scripture, to do so would be to place trust in man; and why should we when the Bible provides an abundance of truth clearly written. To use unsupport truth would be to make a provision for sin, such would give opportunity to Satan. We should want all who hear us see through us to Christ, when someone ask us where such is in the Bible we should not be found holding a truth not supported by God’s word.

I have no theme that the Bible is not enough to live a holy life. That perspective of me is your opinion and not anything that I have ever said in my entire life.

Ok...Just make sure your evidence resides and/or is supported by God's word. Ask others to challenge your statement and promote due diligence, this will strengthen both the sower (teacher) and the harvest (student).

Proverbs 27:17. Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

What I have said is that the more we know gives the Spirit more to work with through us. Because the carnal mind is enmity with God (Romans 8), those with it CANNOT understand the Word. .

I assume you are saying that the more we study God's word the more the Holy Spirit can help us descern spiritual things; and those without the Holy Spirit (carnal man) cannot understand the God's Word. If so, I do agree.

The Word, itself, tells us that just being able to relate the Word to those people will not work! We must have knowledge of things not in the Word in order to make the things of the Word relevent to those people. For those purposes we must study things other than the Word.

Please understand that by studying other things it is not implying that those other things be used for doctrine, reproof, rebuke, and instruction in righteousness.

According to the account in Acts 17, Paul did not use any scripture in relating to those he preached to on Mars Hill. He preached on what they did relate to - the UNKNOWN GOD. He was able to relate because the Holy Spirit illuminated to him what he had studied of the Greek.

Rightly dividing the Word would be to provide correct application and insight. Such is to apply to or to received from life experiences and the world. Again, the truth must reside in scripture, thus all truth must be subjected to and found true via scripture.

As far as Paul in Acts 17 I am not sure if this is good example. Paul may not have use OT scripture, Paul was blazing scripture as he spoke, and his inspired words are scripture. He received His teaching straight from the KING for he received an extraordinary call. Paul words are inspired but I can't make such a claim in my exhortation; again, this is why I do and I promote that we should "Subject all things to Scripture".

Galatians 1:12. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

When Jesus come then we can put away our Bibles, for all thing will be subjected to HIM.

For the record, I have not offered any non-Biblical documents at all.

Do I need to bring up the reference to "study the culture of the Pharisees" again? The matter of the Pharisee whoopin has found no factual Biblical bases (period/none). All you need to do is to give clear Biblical support that the Pharisee whooped and we will believe. If none does not exist, you could have said "I think so because of" or "I JUST DON'T KNOW". Technically you did not offer the "study the culture of the Phariseesâ€￾ document to me, but even if one person may have thought that your reference meant that this (or any other non biblical) document is suitable or is as credible as Biblical support, such would be to promote error. Neither the Bible nor I approves of such.

Good Day and God Bless