dacontinent
Preacher
No. We have documentation that some did whoop and some didn't - BOTH - just like we do today.
Black preachers who 'whoop' -- minstrels or ministers?
- Thread starter orange tiger
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dacontinent
Preacher
It looks like you, Clark, Benedict, Wesley, and Clement looked right past those verses. Here is a clue: they are distinguished as psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs for a reason. What do you understand that/those reason(s) to be?
illinijag
Called to Serve
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).
Nevaehingvesting, I admire your zeal, just make sure it is founded on scripture (Romans 10:2).
I am not sure I understand "because of". If this applies to style or whoopin, the statement “because of†implies a need of God of man's work, if this is true, man would have reason to boast. Also, and most important, we cannot look at man/people reaction as a tool to judge God’s works, to do so would be to walk by sight (how things look) and not by faith (what God has written).
2 Corinthians 5:7. For we walk by faith, not by sight
We only need to do those things, which God say we should do and let God do the rest. Many physical reactions are just the reaction of the flesh; such reactions can be the result of something good or bad. Again, how men respond to anything has nothing to do with God’s approval. David had the great idea to bring the ark to Jerusalem on a cart, but such was not God’s approved manner of transport and God kill Uzzah because of it.
2 Samuel 6:7. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. And David was displeased, because the Lord had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day.
Jesus is God, God knows the heart of man, we do not. Jesus knew/know the intent of all man. He addressed the self-righteous Pharisee in a manner different form those who knew they were sinners. Jesus different approach is beyond what we can ever do, we have not His divine knowledge. Also, the words Jesus stated that were not confirm by Old Testament Scripture became scripture. Jesus in the Word, He could have spoken indepented of word in scripture. I would not say Jesus had a style to excite man, the content of His was powerful; it either drew people to Him or cause them to hate Him.
We should consider Jesus statement before look at reactions and numbers for proof of success:
Matthew 22:14. For many are called, but few are chosen.
I won’t comment on Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer…I would just ask all the subject their teaching to Scripture and not by what you see or hear. Their success in the mass media and their large following has no baring as to their obedience to God’s word. Again Jesus made another statement:
Matthew 7:13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The key here is that they had no style to entice man’s flesh, their message/content is what they conveyed. Both were humbled by God and were God’s faithful servants, neither were esteem high among men. The religious leaders call Peter dump and Paul was call a mad man (no style to admire here):
Acts 4:13. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).
Acts 26:24. And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
If there is criticizing without merit (Biblical Support) such should be identified and addressed. However, let us not view statements that are contrary to traditional teaching to be critical, if the Bible clearly states otherwise. All of these matters can be settled with scripture not opinions. When we agree among men and have no agreement with God’s word we accomplish nothing. Compromise for comfort is not what God wants from Christian. This is the purpose of His word, a doctrine to live by not by opinions or in lieu of happiness among man.
2 Timothy 3:16-17. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If there is anyone you feel to be critical without merit, you should address them not with your opinions alone but with God’s word for He said, “it is profitable for correctionâ€.
When Paul stated that we need to be on one accord, he was not implying that we be on one accord with each other alone, but that we be on one accord with God.
Philippians 2:2. Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
I grew up in the Church also and I confess Christ at the age of about 11. Just like most people in the local Church, I was called a Christian but was not. All who confess Christ are not Christians. If anyone says this is not true, I can confirm such because I was not a Christian at the age of 11. I accepted Christ 27 years later by the draw of God through repentance. Man does not save man, all we are to do is to teach God’s word and let God do the rest. The Church has become a false sanctuary for many who believe that they are save because of works of righteousness or just because the came before the Church. I thank God, I left the local Church (which I really was not apart of Christ Church) for in the world I knew I was not saved; being where you know need something you can see clear your need. As Christian, we need not to tell people they are saved or lost, such can only be confirmed by God, we need to tell them about a Holy God. More so, we need to help them to see themselves relative to the Holy God. But in the End it is God and God alone who save.
1 Corinthians 3:6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
So let us not go say “Let’s go save somebody†which we have not the power to do. Let us go and tell a dying world about a living Saviour (Jesus Christ). And to those who claimed to be saved, let us render to them the instructions given by God’s word and not traditonal teachings…and in all that we hear, see or read “SUBJECT ALL TO SCRIPTUREâ€.
Good Day and God Bless
Nevaehingvesting, I admire your zeal, just make sure it is founded on scripture (Romans 10:2).
I am not sure I understand "because of". If this applies to style or whoopin, the statement “because of†implies a need of God of man's work, if this is true, man would have reason to boast. Also, and most important, we cannot look at man/people reaction as a tool to judge God’s works, to do so would be to walk by sight (how things look) and not by faith (what God has written).
2 Corinthians 5:7. For we walk by faith, not by sight
We only need to do those things, which God say we should do and let God do the rest. Many physical reactions are just the reaction of the flesh; such reactions can be the result of something good or bad. Again, how men respond to anything has nothing to do with God’s approval. David had the great idea to bring the ark to Jerusalem on a cart, but such was not God’s approved manner of transport and God kill Uzzah because of it.
2 Samuel 6:7. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God. And David was displeased, because the Lord had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day.
Jesus is God, God knows the heart of man, we do not. Jesus knew/know the intent of all man. He addressed the self-righteous Pharisee in a manner different form those who knew they were sinners. Jesus different approach is beyond what we can ever do, we have not His divine knowledge. Also, the words Jesus stated that were not confirm by Old Testament Scripture became scripture. Jesus in the Word, He could have spoken indepented of word in scripture. I would not say Jesus had a style to excite man, the content of His was powerful; it either drew people to Him or cause them to hate Him.
We should consider Jesus statement before look at reactions and numbers for proof of success:
Matthew 22:14. For many are called, but few are chosen.
I won’t comment on Joel Osteen or Joyce Meyer…I would just ask all the subject their teaching to Scripture and not by what you see or hear. Their success in the mass media and their large following has no baring as to their obedience to God’s word. Again Jesus made another statement:
Matthew 7:13. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The key here is that they had no style to entice man’s flesh, their message/content is what they conveyed. Both were humbled by God and were God’s faithful servants, neither were esteem high among men. The religious leaders call Peter dump and Paul was call a mad man (no style to admire here):
Acts 4:13. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).
Acts 26:24. And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
If there is criticizing without merit (Biblical Support) such should be identified and addressed. However, let us not view statements that are contrary to traditional teaching to be critical, if the Bible clearly states otherwise. All of these matters can be settled with scripture not opinions. When we agree among men and have no agreement with God’s word we accomplish nothing. Compromise for comfort is not what God wants from Christian. This is the purpose of His word, a doctrine to live by not by opinions or in lieu of happiness among man.
2 Timothy 3:16-17. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
If there is anyone you feel to be critical without merit, you should address them not with your opinions alone but with God’s word for He said, “it is profitable for correctionâ€.
When Paul stated that we need to be on one accord, he was not implying that we be on one accord with each other alone, but that we be on one accord with God.
Philippians 2:2. Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
INFACT
I’ve met (been around) Christians my whole life. I’ve seen some of my friends, family, co-workers, strangers, etc accept Jesus as Savior. This is awesome to me because a lot of them came from different backgrounds, religions, beliefs, and parts of the world. Crazy thing is, most accepted Jesus at various types of churches as far as style (of course all Christian churches) but we wound up in the same spot in the end now, *with Jesus.* Some of my friends don't get much from my pastor's teaching but they love their own pastor of course and vice versus. That's fine.
For some people that’s not good enough. Salvation is only good to them if it happens without whooping, or without music, or without a women being involved, or without etc. Nevermind the fact they saved
Oh well, Let’s go save somebody….!
I grew up in the Church also and I confess Christ at the age of about 11. Just like most people in the local Church, I was called a Christian but was not. All who confess Christ are not Christians. If anyone says this is not true, I can confirm such because I was not a Christian at the age of 11. I accepted Christ 27 years later by the draw of God through repentance. Man does not save man, all we are to do is to teach God’s word and let God do the rest. The Church has become a false sanctuary for many who believe that they are save because of works of righteousness or just because the came before the Church. I thank God, I left the local Church (which I really was not apart of Christ Church) for in the world I knew I was not saved; being where you know need something you can see clear your need. As Christian, we need not to tell people they are saved or lost, such can only be confirmed by God, we need to tell them about a Holy God. More so, we need to help them to see themselves relative to the Holy God. But in the End it is God and God alone who save.
1 Corinthians 3:6. I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
So let us not go say “Let’s go save somebody†which we have not the power to do. Let us go and tell a dying world about a living Saviour (Jesus Christ). And to those who claimed to be saved, let us render to them the instructions given by God’s word and not traditonal teachings…and in all that we hear, see or read “SUBJECT ALL TO SCRIPTUREâ€.
Good Day and God Bless
illinijag
Called to Serve
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).
Interesting...I never gave this a thought. Instruments were spoke of in the Old Testament but I do not recall it being apart of corporate worship, neither do I recall reading of such in the early Church. However, when I was a church-going-unsaved-sinner the music really made me feel good. I remembered a lot of the songs, I guess I could have song a tune or two in Hell had it not please God to call me.:weee:
But as one who is saved, music does help me in given praise. It is clear that music excites the flesh which can give off a false assurance to the unsaved or provide heart felt praise from the saved. We know that both the Sinner and Saint can weep or even sob to a Good Gospel Song. Ain't no way music is leaving the local Church, music has a foothold. I have seen the local Chruch sell out a concert, yet have only few in attendance for Sunday service. Music at it Best, still fall short of being the tool God uses to save...
Romans 10:17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
:idea: Maybe if people focus more on the lyrics then the music would become the tool...just a thought
Good Day and God Bless
Interesting...I never gave this a thought. Instruments were spoke of in the Old Testament but I do not recall it being apart of corporate worship, neither do I recall reading of such in the early Church. However, when I was a church-going-unsaved-sinner the music really made me feel good. I remembered a lot of the songs, I guess I could have song a tune or two in Hell had it not please God to call me.:weee:
But as one who is saved, music does help me in given praise. It is clear that music excites the flesh which can give off a false assurance to the unsaved or provide heart felt praise from the saved. We know that both the Sinner and Saint can weep or even sob to a Good Gospel Song. Ain't no way music is leaving the local Church, music has a foothold. I have seen the local Chruch sell out a concert, yet have only few in attendance for Sunday service. Music at it Best, still fall short of being the tool God uses to save...
Romans 10:17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
:idea: Maybe if people focus more on the lyrics then the music would become the tool...just a thought
Good Day and God Bless
dacontinent
Preacher
While your statement is true and I agree with you completely, that is not my point at all. My point is rather the more we study science, nature, music, literature, ... all of the elements of life, the better equipped we are to be able to relate the Word to believers and unbelievers alike, as prompted by the Holy Spirit.
I hope that we are receiving whatever we are teaching straight from the KING, just as Paul did. If we are not, then it is my suggestion that we study ... to be quiet.
A classic example of the type of study that I mentioned is referenced in Post #52 of this thread.
You may bring it up if you would like. However, the closest reference to whoopin is not one to the Pharisees but to the apostles Peter and John in Acts 4. When you study the Greek language there, you will certain understand that parrhesia means a bit more than just boldness. I am sure that you are aware that not everything that translated in 1611 British translates the same way 400 years later in the US.
Dr H..
Active Member
Jag
Absolutely, neither did the Leviticus Priesthood use instruments. But, here is the kicker, the Church per se’ did not exist during the Old Testament. So I am not understanding why folks continue to use the O T as an exampl, David "Danced" but he was not a member of the church nor was he a Christian. The church started after the Day of Pentecost and can be read about in the Book of Acts.
I think one of the reasons God, prohibited instrumental music in worship service, because it tends to take the focus on for Him and put it on the instrumental section and the same can be said about a preacher “Whooping” yes, regardless of what some say the focus changes from God to the whooping and the instruments.
You hit the nail on the head. And the sad part is a majority of those dancing and grooving to the music cannot tell you anything about, salvation, repentance, justification or sanctification.
Absolutely, neither did the Leviticus Priesthood use instruments. But, here is the kicker, the Church per se’ did not exist during the Old Testament. So I am not understanding why folks continue to use the O T as an exampl, David "Danced" but he was not a member of the church nor was he a Christian. The church started after the Day of Pentecost and can be read about in the Book of Acts.
I think one of the reasons God, prohibited instrumental music in worship service, because it tends to take the focus on for Him and put it on the instrumental section and the same can be said about a preacher “Whooping” yes, regardless of what some say the focus changes from God to the whooping and the instruments.
You hit the nail on the head. And the sad part is a majority of those dancing and grooving to the music cannot tell you anything about, salvation, repentance, justification or sanctification.
dacontinent
Preacher
Not so fast, my friend.
1 Chron 15:3-16
3 And David gathered all Israel together to Jerusalem, to bring up the ark of the Lord unto his place, which he had prepared for it. 4 And David assembled the children of Aaron, and the Levites: 5 Of the sons of Kohath; Uriel the chief, and his brethren an hundred and twenty: 6 Of the sons of Merari; Asaiah the chief, and his brethren two hundred and twenty: 7 Of the sons of Gershom; Joel the chief, and his brethren an hundred and thirty: 8 Of the sons of Elizaphan; Shemaiah the chief, and his brethren two hundred: 9 Of the sons of Hebron; Eliel the chief, and his brethren fourscore: 10 Of the sons of Uzziel; Amminadab the chief, and his brethren an hundred and twelve. 11 And David called for Zadok and Abiathar the priests, and for the Levites, for Uriel, Asaiah, and Joel, Shemaiah, and Eliel, and Amminadab, 12 And said unto them, Ye are the chief of the fathers of the Levites: sanctify yourselves, both ye and your brethren, that ye may bring up the ark of the Lord God of Israel unto the place that I have prepared for it. 13 For because ye did it not at the first, the Lord our God made a breach upon us, for that we sought him not after the due order. 14 So the priests and the Levites sanctified themselves to bring up the ark of the Lord God of Israel. 15 And the children of the Levites bare the ark of God upon their shoulders with the staves thereon, as Moses commanded according to the word of the Lord. 16 And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy.
illinijag
Called to Serve
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).
I have a Bluetooth headset, if my phone is more than 2feet from the headset I often loose signal or get interference; If I use my wired 2.5mm headset I have a clear direct connection. Often when I miss an important meeting I receive little, incorrect or even bad information; when I attend meetings, I not only get first hand information, I also get the tenor and tone of the presentation (which often is more important).
Paul had a direct connection from Him who had the spirit without Measure. The King left us His spirit and His Manual, we would be naive to believe or think that we don't often receive interference, some lost of communication or even miss-information. If this were not so, you and I will always be on one accord. We need to stay as close to the King as possible ... we must be as a Branch to a Vine..
John 15:5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
I like your tenacity Dac... and know this:
I ask of you no more than I ask of myself, if I did anything less...it would be as if you were a child of an infidel and not my Brother in Christ.
Proverbs 27:17. Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
I use to chop cotton growing up in Mississippi so the passage above has a lot of meaning to me. What many may not get from this passage is that Sharpening Creates Heat and there must be Removal of Metal before sharpening is complete.
Good Day and God Bless.
I have a Bluetooth headset, if my phone is more than 2feet from the headset I often loose signal or get interference; If I use my wired 2.5mm headset I have a clear direct connection. Often when I miss an important meeting I receive little, incorrect or even bad information; when I attend meetings, I not only get first hand information, I also get the tenor and tone of the presentation (which often is more important).
Paul had a direct connection from Him who had the spirit without Measure. The King left us His spirit and His Manual, we would be naive to believe or think that we don't often receive interference, some lost of communication or even miss-information. If this were not so, you and I will always be on one accord. We need to stay as close to the King as possible ... we must be as a Branch to a Vine..
John 15:5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
I like your tenacity Dac... and know this:
I ask of you no more than I ask of myself, if I did anything less...it would be as if you were a child of an infidel and not my Brother in Christ.
Proverbs 27:17. Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.
I use to chop cotton growing up in Mississippi so the passage above has a lot of meaning to me. What many may not get from this passage is that Sharpening Creates Heat and there must be Removal of Metal before sharpening is complete.
Good Day and God Bless.
dacontinent
Preacher
Inaccurate. The high priest was the only one allowed to enter the holy of holies and offer atonement for the people.
They were certainly worshipping with singing and music; harps, psalteries, cymbals, trumpets (and probably some other instruments that weren't named).
But wait!!
1 Chron 15:19-22
19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass; 20 And Zechariah, and Aziel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Unni, and Eliab, and Maaseiah, and Benaiah, with psalteries on Alamoth; 21 And Mattithiah, and Elipheleh, and Mikneiah, and Obed-edom, and Jeiel, and Azaziah, with harps on the Sheminith to excel. 22 And Chenaniah, chief of the Levites, was for song: he instructed about the song, because he was skilful.
19 So the singers, Heman, Asaph, and Ethan, were appointed to sound with cymbals of brass; 20 And Zechariah, and Aziel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Unni, and Eliab, and Maaseiah, and Benaiah, with psalteries on Alamoth; 21 And Mattithiah, and Elipheleh, and Mikneiah, and Obed-edom, and Jeiel, and Azaziah, with harps on the Sheminith to excel. 22 And Chenaniah, chief of the Levites, was for song: he instructed about the song, because he was skilful.
And wait some more...
1 Chron 15:24
24 And Shebaniah, and Jehoshaphat, and Nethaneel, and Amasai, and Zechariah, and Benaiah, and Eliezer, the priests, did blow with the trumpets before the ark of God: and Obed-edom and Jehiah were doorkeepers for the ark.
24 And Shebaniah, and Jehoshaphat, and Nethaneel, and Amasai, and Zechariah, and Benaiah, and Eliezer, the priests, did blow with the trumpets before the ark of God: and Obed-edom and Jehiah were doorkeepers for the ark.
And while you're waiting...
1 Chron 15:28
28 Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the Lord with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, making a noise with psalteries and harps.
28 Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of the Lord with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, making a noise with psalteries and harps.
Don't quit yet...
1 Chron 16:1-2
So they brought the ark of God, and set it in the midst of the tent that David had pitched for it: and they offered burnt sacrifices and peace offerings before God. 2 And when David had made an end of offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord.
So they brought the ark of God, and set it in the midst of the tent that David had pitched for it: and they offered burnt sacrifices and peace offerings before God. 2 And when David had made an end of offering the burnt offerings and the peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord.
Keep reading ...
1 Chron 16:4-7
4 And he appointed certain of the Levites to minister before the ark of the Lord, and to record, and to thank and praise the Lord God of Israel: 5 Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, Jeiel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Mattithiah, and Eliab, and Benaiah, and Obed-edom: and Jeiel with psalteries and with harps; but Asaph made a sound with cymbals; 6 Benaiah also and Jahaziel the priests with trumpets continually before the ark of the covenant of God. 7 Then on that day David delivered first this psalm to thank the Lord into the hand of Asaph and his brethren.
4 And he appointed certain of the Levites to minister before the ark of the Lord, and to record, and to thank and praise the Lord God of Israel: 5 Asaph the chief, and next to him Zechariah, Jeiel, and Shemiramoth, and Jehiel, and Mattithiah, and Eliab, and Benaiah, and Obed-edom: and Jeiel with psalteries and with harps; but Asaph made a sound with cymbals; 6 Benaiah also and Jahaziel the priests with trumpets continually before the ark of the covenant of God. 7 Then on that day David delivered first this psalm to thank the Lord into the hand of Asaph and his brethren.
And just when you thought things were finished ...
1 Chron 16:36
36 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel for ever and ever. And all the people said, Amen, and praised the Lord.
[Could this have been improvised (jazz) as led by the Holy Ghost??!!]36 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel for ever and ever. And all the people said, Amen, and praised the Lord.
...it kept right on going.
1 Chron 16:37-42
37 So he left there before the ark of the covenant of the Lord Asaph and his brethren, to minister before the ark continually, as every day's work required: 38 And Obed-edom with their brethren, threescore and eight; Obed-edom also the son of Jeduthun and Hosah to be porters: 39 And Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the tabernacle of the Lord in the high place that was at Gibeon, 40 To offer burnt offerings unto the Lord upon the altar of the burnt offering continually morning and evening, and to do according to all that is written in the law of the Lord, which he commanded Israel; 41 And with them Heman and Jeduthun, and the rest that were chosen, who were expressed by name, to give thanks to the Lord, because his mercy endureth for ever; 42 And with them Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those that should make a sound, and with musical instruments of God. And the sons of Jeduthun were porters.
37 So he left there before the ark of the covenant of the Lord Asaph and his brethren, to minister before the ark continually, as every day's work required: 38 And Obed-edom with their brethren, threescore and eight; Obed-edom also the son of Jeduthun and Hosah to be porters: 39 And Zadok the priest, and his brethren the priests, before the tabernacle of the Lord in the high place that was at Gibeon, 40 To offer burnt offerings unto the Lord upon the altar of the burnt offering continually morning and evening, and to do according to all that is written in the law of the Lord, which he commanded Israel; 41 And with them Heman and Jeduthun, and the rest that were chosen, who were expressed by name, to give thanks to the Lord, because his mercy endureth for ever; 42 And with them Heman and Jeduthun with trumpets and cymbals for those that should make a sound, and with musical instruments of God. And the sons of Jeduthun were porters.
Am I to suppose that those Levites and priests were just hanging around with nothing else to do? I think not. These guys continually worshipped with music in the presence of the Lord. It is as plain as the text details.
David did not give a hymn to Asaph; he gave a psalm...after having enjoyed a groove.
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dacontinent
Preacher
If you have Christ as Savior and the Holy Spirit is guide, you have a direct connection Him who had the spirit without Measure. That is the purpose and work of the Holy Spirit. Paul had no more than you and I do. His calling MIGHT have been different, but not His access.
nevaehinvesting
Active Member
Oh well, I want to respond, especially to the implications about music / instruments not being for today's church but this has turned into the usualy unfruitful tennis match so let's agree to disagree and just keep on saving folks (of course I mean witnessing )
)
dacontinent
Preacher
Oh well, I want to respond, especially to the implications about music / instruments not being for today's church but this has turned into the usualy unfruitful tennis match so let's agree to disagree and just keep on saving folks (of course I mean witnessing
The English language is tricky. We pour over words again and again because of it. Jude said
Jude 20-23
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
While we are not nor ever will be anyone's salvation, we have a responsibility to save the lost: like a deck hand throwing a life ring, a lifeguard diving into a tempestuous sea, or a fireman going into a raging inferno.But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
This passage aligns with your earlier post on us understanding how different types of ministry presentations affect people. There are some folks that we simply talk to explaining the plan of salvation and they receive Jesus as Lord and walk with Him for the rest of their lives. Others we minister to in all kinds of ways and for years only listen after they come under fire and tragedy. Still, others are reached initially through artistic means; and on and on...
There were people who did not hear Jesus until after He caused them to be fed with fish and bread. He did not do that in every setting. There were people to began to follow Him for that reason alone and He rebuked them. Just as people can be conditioned to whoopin', whoopers can be conditioned to people. The same is true of non-whoopers and those who love them for it.
Whoop or don't whoop; but have content and be effective. Redeem the lost. Disciple the saved. Set the captive free!
southsuburbs
What I Live By...
RIF...
but thanks for repeating the exact same thing I said. LOL
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what church do you attend?
It is a small christian church on the far South Side of Chicago. So far it's been an enlightening experience. I've learned a bunch so far.
illinijag
Called to Serve
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).
nevaehinvesting,
Sorry you feel as thought things have turned unfruitful. I must say I have gained must insight from some portions of these discusion (including your post), some may have only been to shore up my own faith in the position I hold.
When teaching we will encounter many with the same questions, ideas and positions; we must be able to defend and explain our position not wirh words but with scripture (truth) support.
1 Peter 3:15. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear
If we can not do this, we need to search out our own position relative to God position (God's Word) and follow what is true and not tradition or perception. This is God means of providing edification to His Church, through His word. Don't let Pride or tradition rob you of the truth; if you receive truth by any means, even truth contrary to what you believe, IT IS TRUTH SENT BY GOD.
As far as your statement "Let Us Go Save Some Folks", I don't doubt that you meant to witness. I only provided clarity. Many do think that man save people and they thrust upon man Praises and Honour due only to God. Some men think it is their resposibility to save people (as oppose to just witnessing) then they will cater their methods to get more people to go before the Church to say they accept Christ.
When truth is clarified it prevents error, it RIGHTLY DIVIDES THE WORD OF TRUTH.
2 Timothy 2:15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
May God continue to bless you in your witnessing
Good Day and God Bless
Oh well, I want to respond, especially to the implications about music / instruments not being for today's church but this has turned into the usualy unfruitful tennis match so let's agree to disagree and just keep on saving folks (of course I mean witnessing
nevaehinvesting,
Sorry you feel as thought things have turned unfruitful. I must say I have gained must insight from some portions of these discusion (including your post), some may have only been to shore up my own faith in the position I hold.
When teaching we will encounter many with the same questions, ideas and positions; we must be able to defend and explain our position not wirh words but with scripture (truth) support.
1 Peter 3:15. But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear
If we can not do this, we need to search out our own position relative to God position (God's Word) and follow what is true and not tradition or perception. This is God means of providing edification to His Church, through His word. Don't let Pride or tradition rob you of the truth; if you receive truth by any means, even truth contrary to what you believe, IT IS TRUTH SENT BY GOD.
As far as your statement "Let Us Go Save Some Folks", I don't doubt that you meant to witness. I only provided clarity. Many do think that man save people and they thrust upon man Praises and Honour due only to God. Some men think it is their resposibility to save people (as oppose to just witnessing) then they will cater their methods to get more people to go before the Church to say they accept Christ.
When truth is clarified it prevents error, it RIGHTLY DIVIDES THE WORD OF TRUTH.
2 Timothy 2:15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
May God continue to bless you in your witnessing
Good Day and God Bless
illinijag
Called to Serve
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).
Dac.
You are 100% correct. So what is the Problem? The problem is we still have the sin nature within us that cause the connection to be cyclical going on and off. Paul himself stated this:
Galatians 5:17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatian 5:17 (LVB). For we naturally love to do evil things that are just the opposite from the things that the Holy Spirit tells us to do; and the good things we want to do when the Spirit has his way with us are just the opposite of our natural desires. These two forces within us are constantly fighting each other to win control over us, and our wishes are never free from their pressures.
The above passage is extreme Meat not milk…some may choke on it and to some it will reveal why we have no hope without a redeemer…
The problem is not the Holy Spirit; it is man who cannot (under the sun) continue to stay directly connected to (follow the lead) of the Holy Spirit. God tells us to do so, yet He know we cannot….Now I can see clear Paul’s words
Romans 7:24-25. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
HOLD UP!
All who are saved have the indwelling Holy Spirit, such was a promise left by Christ:
Ephesians 1:13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise
However, it is clear that there is varying magnitude relative to the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the days following was working at a high level, such was proved by the sign gifts it gave to the Apostle and early believers and when it was in the presence of two people telling a lie it destroyed them:
Acts 5:3-5. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
This same Holy Spirit resided in the ARK and killed Uzzah.
2 Samuel 6:6-7. And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure, thus proves that the Holy Spirit works in degree and just like God gives man varying gifts, He give man varying degree of light (revelation)….we can see this in Church …even in the Prayer Board.
John 3:34. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Many say and would debate that the Holy Spirit was first given to the eleven disciples at Pentecost. Yet, Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit on them prior to that to open up their ears to understand all that He told them. I am sure that when Jesus breathes on them the revelation they received was 100% pure even though they still had the sin nature in them. For all that God wills directly, will come to be.
Note: Luke 24:45 & John 20:22 are synoptic passages from the same event.
John 20:22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Luke 24:45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures
Ok, you say, “Paul had no more than you and I doâ€. I am not going to focus on you; I am going to just look at myself relative to Paul.
Paul and I are sinners save by grace, but to say Paul and I have the same light (revelation) and gifts! Let look at reality (Biblical Facts):
Jesus taught Paul directly, I was not.
Galatian 1:11-12. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:16-17. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
It was Jesus direct will for Paul to be who Paul became. The power Jesus had in His direct teaching to Paul over ruled any resistance from Paul’s flesh. If Jesus left His teaching to Paul’s human ability to understand, Paul learning would be subjected to interpretive error.
I cannot lay claim to the same method of revelation that Paul received. We have the New Testament to read, the indwelling Holy Spirit to teach/guide and the flesh to fight our will to do so. Paul was given his message directly from the source (Jesus) like the Prophets of old; when God wills a revelation to be, it cannot be diverted by the flesh.
There are many other things that were revealed to Paul, which I cannot claim any measurable revelation to compare. However, what is true is that the same eternity that awaits Paul awaits all of God's elect.
The Holy Spirit is the same but it gives in measure as it pleases God.
Romans 9:21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
The fact is, God gives to whom He wish to give and to what degree pleases Him. His gifts vary in type and degrees. Lest any man boast, consider this:
1 Corinthians 4:7. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Paul was a man whom God elevated to do a great service…Much Greater than the service I provide. However, I will provide service consistent with the light I was given. Given this truth we must never envy another man’s gift (good words) for to do so would be envy the Source (Heaven).
John 3:27. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Good Day and God Bless
Dac.
You are 100% correct. So what is the Problem? The problem is we still have the sin nature within us that cause the connection to be cyclical going on and off. Paul himself stated this:
Galatians 5:17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Galatian 5:17 (LVB). For we naturally love to do evil things that are just the opposite from the things that the Holy Spirit tells us to do; and the good things we want to do when the Spirit has his way with us are just the opposite of our natural desires. These two forces within us are constantly fighting each other to win control over us, and our wishes are never free from their pressures.
The above passage is extreme Meat not milk…some may choke on it and to some it will reveal why we have no hope without a redeemer…
The problem is not the Holy Spirit; it is man who cannot (under the sun) continue to stay directly connected to (follow the lead) of the Holy Spirit. God tells us to do so, yet He know we cannot….Now I can see clear Paul’s words
Romans 7:24-25. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
HOLD UP!
All who are saved have the indwelling Holy Spirit, such was a promise left by Christ:
Ephesians 1:13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise
However, it is clear that there is varying magnitude relative to the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit at Pentecost and the days following was working at a high level, such was proved by the sign gifts it gave to the Apostle and early believers and when it was in the presence of two people telling a lie it destroyed them:
Acts 5:3-5. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
This same Holy Spirit resided in the ARK and killed Uzzah.
2 Samuel 6:6-7. And when they came to Nachon's threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it.. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.
Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure, thus proves that the Holy Spirit works in degree and just like God gives man varying gifts, He give man varying degree of light (revelation)….we can see this in Church …even in the Prayer Board.
John 3:34. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Many say and would debate that the Holy Spirit was first given to the eleven disciples at Pentecost. Yet, Jesus breathes the Holy Spirit on them prior to that to open up their ears to understand all that He told them. I am sure that when Jesus breathes on them the revelation they received was 100% pure even though they still had the sin nature in them. For all that God wills directly, will come to be.
Note: Luke 24:45 & John 20:22 are synoptic passages from the same event.
John 20:22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Luke 24:45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures
Ok, you say, “Paul had no more than you and I doâ€. I am not going to focus on you; I am going to just look at myself relative to Paul.
Paul and I are sinners save by grace, but to say Paul and I have the same light (revelation) and gifts! Let look at reality (Biblical Facts):
Jesus taught Paul directly, I was not.
Galatian 1:11-12. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:16-17. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
It was Jesus direct will for Paul to be who Paul became. The power Jesus had in His direct teaching to Paul over ruled any resistance from Paul’s flesh. If Jesus left His teaching to Paul’s human ability to understand, Paul learning would be subjected to interpretive error.
I cannot lay claim to the same method of revelation that Paul received. We have the New Testament to read, the indwelling Holy Spirit to teach/guide and the flesh to fight our will to do so. Paul was given his message directly from the source (Jesus) like the Prophets of old; when God wills a revelation to be, it cannot be diverted by the flesh.
There are many other things that were revealed to Paul, which I cannot claim any measurable revelation to compare. However, what is true is that the same eternity that awaits Paul awaits all of God's elect.
The Holy Spirit is the same but it gives in measure as it pleases God.
Romans 9:21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
The fact is, God gives to whom He wish to give and to what degree pleases Him. His gifts vary in type and degrees. Lest any man boast, consider this:
1 Corinthians 4:7. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?
Paul was a man whom God elevated to do a great service…Much Greater than the service I provide. However, I will provide service consistent with the light I was given. Given this truth we must never envy another man’s gift (good words) for to do so would be envy the Source (Heaven).
John 3:27. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Good Day and God Bless
dacontinent
Preacher
Really?? As best as I can remember, Paul encounters Jesus' voice on the road to Damascus in Acts 9 and he recounts hearing the Lord's voice in a vision in 2 Corinthians 12. At Pentecost, Peter recalls Joel's prophecy that we will "dream dreams and see visions". If that is what you mean by Paul being taught directly, then you should be taught directly also. It is promised to you. Speaking for myself, I have received many visions, documenting and sharing them with others, and enjoyed seeing them come to fruition. There are some that I am still waiting for their fruit. I am expecting to have more visions.
Jesus said in John 16 that He was going away but would give us the Holy Spirit as our teacher ... directly.
I really can't think of scripture that supports the notion of different measures of the Holy Spirit being distributed to believers. I do find scriptural support for varying numbers of gifts of the Spirit being metered out. If you can point something out differently, I will gladly receive the teaching.
Paul, who had received the Holy Ghost (John 16 again) while in Damascus, says that he was not taught the gospel that he preached by any man. He does not say that he was taught by Jesus, but that it was revealed to him.
It is Jesus' direct will for each of us to become what He has seen of us. He gives us the Holy Ghost to guide to that place in Him.
Let me encourage you to not sell yourself short or put limits on what great service the Lord will command of you to provide. Jesus did say to expect greater works than He did. It could be that you simply have not YET reached that point.
illinijag
Called to Serve
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).
...Boy, when you shake the tree a lot of stuff falls out!
Dac
The following is enough for me to believe that Christ spoke directly with Paul. I also think this occurred when he went to Arabia, if not there somewhere else. If Christ did this in a vision to Paul, it is still a direct teaching from Christ.
Galatians 1:11-12. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:16-17. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
If Paul did not received revelation direct from Christ, where did he get it from? It was not written in scripture, where else would it come from?
Whoa…Are you sure you wanted to write that? I normally leave people alone who make these type of statements.
Brother, there are no new revelation, the Bible is complete.
1 Corinthians 13:10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away
Your vision at best are your random thoughts based on your best judgment of what you understand. Be careful and check the source of your visions, Satan and his demons has powers to fill some of our desires. If your vision is not consistent with God’s Word, you have been deceived.
Listen to Peter, he stated that he heard a voice from heaven, but we have a more word of prophecy (The Bible) and we are advised to heed the word (The Bible) than to listen to unsourced visions.
2 Peter 1:18-20. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The following scripture states that we (Christians) are spoken to by Christ (the Holy Spirit he left for us). The Holy Spirit is our aid in understanding that, which we aquire from Scripture and scriptural teaching (preaching). If we receive visions as you stated, we need not the scriptures, we would be as foretell Prophets.
Hebrews 1:1-2. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
I gave you an enormous amount of Biblical data showing that the Holy Spirit has varying degrees of measure, starting with the standard which is Christ, who has it without measure. I would hope you were able to view those passages from the perspective of the Whole Council of God (complete Bible). I cannot give you anymore than that, but if you continue to believe what you fail to support with scripture, so be it.
As far as me selling myself short, I don’t fall for worldly slogans given by preachers who promotes man’s will; It is God and God alone who gives man to do, that He will them to do. I will remain faithful to God and continue to receive the blessing he as given me.
:lol:“Sell myself short†I have nothing to sell, I am just a servant who owes all to God, if it pleases God to leave me short (as you may see me)…such is He will.
I stand by my original post 100%. Your post only shore up my belief and give me more reason to thank God I read the Bible and not lean to man for my understanding.
Just a warning, make sure your visions are consistent with Scripture and remember that Satan and his demon can mask themselves as light.
Good Day and God Bless
...Boy, when you shake the tree a lot of stuff falls out!
Dac
The following is enough for me to believe that Christ spoke directly with Paul. I also think this occurred when he went to Arabia, if not there somewhere else. If Christ did this in a vision to Paul, it is still a direct teaching from Christ.
Galatians 1:11-12. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Galatians 1:16-17. To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.
If Paul did not received revelation direct from Christ, where did he get it from? It was not written in scripture, where else would it come from?
Whoa…Are you sure you wanted to write that? I normally leave people alone who make these type of statements.
Brother, there are no new revelation, the Bible is complete.
1 Corinthians 13:10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away
Your vision at best are your random thoughts based on your best judgment of what you understand. Be careful and check the source of your visions, Satan and his demons has powers to fill some of our desires. If your vision is not consistent with God’s Word, you have been deceived.
Listen to Peter, he stated that he heard a voice from heaven, but we have a more word of prophecy (The Bible) and we are advised to heed the word (The Bible) than to listen to unsourced visions.
2 Peter 1:18-20. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The following scripture states that we (Christians) are spoken to by Christ (the Holy Spirit he left for us). The Holy Spirit is our aid in understanding that, which we aquire from Scripture and scriptural teaching (preaching). If we receive visions as you stated, we need not the scriptures, we would be as foretell Prophets.
Hebrews 1:1-2. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.
I gave you an enormous amount of Biblical data showing that the Holy Spirit has varying degrees of measure, starting with the standard which is Christ, who has it without measure. I would hope you were able to view those passages from the perspective of the Whole Council of God (complete Bible). I cannot give you anymore than that, but if you continue to believe what you fail to support with scripture, so be it.
As far as me selling myself short, I don’t fall for worldly slogans given by preachers who promotes man’s will; It is God and God alone who gives man to do, that He will them to do. I will remain faithful to God and continue to receive the blessing he as given me.
:lol:“Sell myself short†I have nothing to sell, I am just a servant who owes all to God, if it pleases God to leave me short (as you may see me)…such is He will.
I stand by my original post 100%. Your post only shore up my belief and give me more reason to thank God I read the Bible and not lean to man for my understanding.
Just a warning, make sure your visions are consistent with Scripture and remember that Satan and his demon can mask themselves as light.
Good Day and God Bless
dacontinent
Preacher
Answer: The Holy Ghost. That same Spirit that inspired men to write ALL of scripture; who has the mind of Christ; who distributes the gifts in the Body; who is eternal from beginning to end; whom Jesus promised would lead and guide us into all truth; who would continue to inspire scripture after Paul was dead.
I have no doubt that the Bible is complete. It is the contention that there is no new revelation that I have trouble with. I have had visions of people and places that had not encountered before, of dialogue that had not been uttered, of designs that had not been drawn. To contend that these things were in any way based on something that I understood does not hold true.
1 Cor 2:9-16
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard , neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
If I understand Paul correctly here, the Holy Ghost will continually bring us revelation - at least until we are face-to-face with God.9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard , neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
We know that 10 of Paul's epistles were written after this, so he continued to receive revelation. We know that 6 epistles (including both of Peter's) by 3 other writers were written after this so they continued to receive revelation. We know that the Revelation of Jesus Christ as recorded by John came still later.
Brother, I did not write this.
Acts 2:16-18
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Joel prophecied that the time would come (revelation) and Peter announced that the time had arrived (revelation). What you wrote of Peter above suggests that he renounced what he announced at Pentecost.16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
We know (1 Cor 12, 13, 14) that the Holy Ghost began to distribute gifts of prophecy, wisdom, and knowledge - all 3 gifts of revelation - were at work in the Body of Christ and not just the apostles.
I will ask you to go back and read Hebrews 1:1-2 and assess whether it speaks of the Son or the Holy Spirit.
I can find nothing in your scripture references that suggests varying measures of the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians speaks that gifts are given and that other gifts may be acquired, but it says nothing of the Spirit being given in distinguishable measures. Help a brother out.
My point is simply that God MIGHT have even greater service in mind for you than He did for Paul. Just from what you write in your posts, I have great expectations of you.
- Thanks for the warning.
- My source is as Peter announced at Pentecost.
- Checking any revelation (dream, vision, prophecy, wisdom, knowledge) against the scripture is fundamental. Scripture is the litmus test of revelation.
cat daddy
Active Member
:tup: :tup:
illinijag
Called to Serve
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).
I see that I cannot shed any additional light on this that will reveal to you the difference in how Paul and OLD Testament Prophets were taught and how we are taught via the Holy Spirit. So I will just leave this passage in hope it will provide you insight:
2 Peter 1:20-21. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
I will say this one more time. When God willed knowledge to All of the Bible writers, He did not allow their flesh/sinful nature to interpret their own understanding of His truth into the Bible. If the Holy Spirit does the same for you, you are perfect (100% error free) in your teaching and preacher.
The above passage only states that we must have God's Spirit to discern Spiritual things. Having the indwelling Holy Spirit give us access to Spiritual understanding via His Word and the Holy Spirit, which aids us in understanding. People in time past only dreamed of knowing what God has now revealed to us through Christ and what the Holy Spirit will reveal to us via scripture. A key line here is "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" ...word or preached word with the Holy Spirit.
John 16:13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Holy Spirit uses your input, your time in study and hearing the word, with such it will then guide you to discernment and show you things to come that are written. However, Paul, Peter, John and others were given new revelation, which resulted in what we now call the New Testament.
Apostles and some others during the early Church had special Gifts and many received new revelation. We do not have any of these sign Gifts; they were given as a confirmation of the Apostles authority for there were no recorded scripture for much of what they were preaching.
Mark 16:20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
The real question is do we really understand it? I can give you many possible interpretations; however, when comparing it to Joel actual language there is too much for me to currently reconciled. So when I don’t truly understand, I fall back to what I do understand. I do know that this passage has eschatology overtones, which I will leave to God or wait until that time come to reveal the scriptural text.
1. Prophecy is two fold, foretell (future and new revelation) and forthtell (discernment and preaching) that which is written. Those who wrote God’s Inspired Words were foretell Prophets and all who are saved should be forthtell Prophets in some manner or fashion (telling a dying world about a living savior). Don’t confuse what the Prophets of old and Apostles had with what we have.
2. Wisdom is the application of Biblical knowledge guided by the Holy Spirit.
3. Knowledge is the acquisition of Spiritual teaching via the Holy Bible and God ordained means of edification guided by the Holy Spirit.
Wisdom teaches us that God is Spirit and His Spirit is the Holy Spirit; thus, the Holy Spirit in time past spoke to Prophets. Attach passage using applied wisdom:
Hebrews 1:1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets
Wisdom teaches us that the Son lived on earth and the Son is God and the Son is the Word made flesh. We also know that the Son’s life revealed and fulfilled many of the things concealed in the Old Testament. Now He speaks to us via Himself, His Word with the guide of His promise Spirit.
Hebrews 1:2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
John 1:14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
We must always view scripture in light of the Whole Counsel of God (Genesis-Revelation).
Again, wisdom must be applied. If Jesus was given the Holy Spirit without measure, one must conclude that the work of the Spirit or the Spirit is given at a varying degree or measure. If the power of the Holy Spirit destroyed two liars and did not killed me when I lie one must conclude that it varies in some manner.
Although Christ was God and had the Holy Spirit without measure, there is a mystery how He was able to be in the presence of sinful man. The Bible teaches us that A Holy God in His True Holiness cannot be in the presence of sinful man without destroying man.
Exodus 33:20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
This is my explanation, add it with the scripture references I posted earlier, such is my view. If you are looking for a Biblical Passage, which states “varying degrees of the work of the Holy Spirit â€, I will send it to you when I find passages with the words “Trinity and Raptureâ€.
Good Day and God Bless
I see that I cannot shed any additional light on this that will reveal to you the difference in how Paul and OLD Testament Prophets were taught and how we are taught via the Holy Spirit. So I will just leave this passage in hope it will provide you insight:
2 Peter 1:20-21. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
I will say this one more time. When God willed knowledge to All of the Bible writers, He did not allow their flesh/sinful nature to interpret their own understanding of His truth into the Bible. If the Holy Spirit does the same for you, you are perfect (100% error free) in your teaching and preacher.
The above passage only states that we must have God's Spirit to discern Spiritual things. Having the indwelling Holy Spirit give us access to Spiritual understanding via His Word and the Holy Spirit, which aids us in understanding. People in time past only dreamed of knowing what God has now revealed to us through Christ and what the Holy Spirit will reveal to us via scripture. A key line here is "comparing spiritual things with spiritual" ...word or preached word with the Holy Spirit.
John 16:13. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Holy Spirit uses your input, your time in study and hearing the word, with such it will then guide you to discernment and show you things to come that are written. However, Paul, Peter, John and others were given new revelation, which resulted in what we now call the New Testament.
Apostles and some others during the early Church had special Gifts and many received new revelation. We do not have any of these sign Gifts; they were given as a confirmation of the Apostles authority for there were no recorded scripture for much of what they were preaching.
Mark 16:20. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
The real question is do we really understand it? I can give you many possible interpretations; however, when comparing it to Joel actual language there is too much for me to currently reconciled. So when I don’t truly understand, I fall back to what I do understand. I do know that this passage has eschatology overtones, which I will leave to God or wait until that time come to reveal the scriptural text.
1. Prophecy is two fold, foretell (future and new revelation) and forthtell (discernment and preaching) that which is written. Those who wrote God’s Inspired Words were foretell Prophets and all who are saved should be forthtell Prophets in some manner or fashion (telling a dying world about a living savior). Don’t confuse what the Prophets of old and Apostles had with what we have.
2. Wisdom is the application of Biblical knowledge guided by the Holy Spirit.
3. Knowledge is the acquisition of Spiritual teaching via the Holy Bible and God ordained means of edification guided by the Holy Spirit.
Wisdom teaches us that God is Spirit and His Spirit is the Holy Spirit; thus, the Holy Spirit in time past spoke to Prophets. Attach passage using applied wisdom:
Hebrews 1:1. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets
Wisdom teaches us that the Son lived on earth and the Son is God and the Son is the Word made flesh. We also know that the Son’s life revealed and fulfilled many of the things concealed in the Old Testament. Now He speaks to us via Himself, His Word with the guide of His promise Spirit.
Hebrews 1:2. Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
John 1:14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
We must always view scripture in light of the Whole Counsel of God (Genesis-Revelation).
Again, wisdom must be applied. If Jesus was given the Holy Spirit without measure, one must conclude that the work of the Spirit or the Spirit is given at a varying degree or measure. If the power of the Holy Spirit destroyed two liars and did not killed me when I lie one must conclude that it varies in some manner.
Although Christ was God and had the Holy Spirit without measure, there is a mystery how He was able to be in the presence of sinful man. The Bible teaches us that A Holy God in His True Holiness cannot be in the presence of sinful man without destroying man.
Exodus 33:20. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
This is my explanation, add it with the scripture references I posted earlier, such is my view. If you are looking for a Biblical Passage, which states “varying degrees of the work of the Holy Spirit â€, I will send it to you when I find passages with the words “Trinity and Raptureâ€.
Good Day and God Bless
dacontinent
Preacher
I suspected from your previous posts that this would be the real dividing line between us. Our house of worship (and many others) still experience these sign gifts ... along with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
I understand the above. You seem to hold a position that the Holy Spirit does not speak anything to us outside of what is in the scriptures.
You seem to violate your own premise here by concluding at all. How do you jump from Jesus receiving the Holy Ghost without measure to the rest of us receiving varying measures? It would be appropriate (and accurate) to conclude that the rest of us receive less than the measure that Jesus did; but where is the counsel of scripture that would even suggest that you would receive a different measure than I, Dr. H, nevaehinvesting or Paul, the apostle?
We know that trinity nor rapture were even coined at the time of the KJV, so they won't be in there. The can be found in some very modern translations. More to the point, I am not looking for “varying degrees of the work of the Holy Spirit ” at all. I have already covered that. I am looking for your scriptural support of a concept that the any two believers receive a different measure [your word of choice] of the Holy Ghost.
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Tiger1
Well-Known Member
Interesting!!!
God gave every born again believer the meaure of faith.
"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." (Romans 12:3)
It's not a measure but the measure of faith!!!
God gives every believer the same measure of faith because it's the measure of faith
"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." (Hebrews 1:3)
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