Prop 8 passed

[ToPdOg]

I rarely get bibical, but if you are a Christian or whatever religion and believe what the Bible or Torah or Kuran says, then being a homosexual goes against God's law. I think gay people should be allowed to do everything except get married. Marriage has a love component but a spritual component as well. And for two men or two women to get married in a church or under the authority of a man or woman of the cloth, is not good if you believe in what the Bible says.

Fornication, sex outside of marriage, is also against God's law. So is adultery. Why not have laws against that also?

I personally don't support gay marriages.

However, I am completely against government passing bills that take away anybody's freedom of choice. If somebody chooses to be in that kind of relationship, they should have the same rights and privileges as anybody else.

If you are against gay marriage, I'd assume that you don't intend on marrying someone of the same gender as you...so why should it bother you in the first place? What does their preference have to do with your life?

Coming from a moral POV, this bill is the result of judgemental, discriminating people, who are too closed minded to let people live their own lives. This also applies to people who support the bill against abortions. But that's for another thread.

I agree with you 100%. While I'm 100% heterosexual, it's none of my business if Adam and Steve wants to get married.

Nothing whatsoever, but if you are going to ask the people to vote on it, this is what you get.

There are some things that people shouldn't be allowed to vote on.

 

[Justin]

Fornication, sex outside of marriage, is also against God's law. So is adultery. Why not have laws against that also?



I agree with you 100%. While I'm 100% heterosexual, it's none of my business if Adam and Steve wants to get married.



There are some things that people shouldn't be allowed to vote on.

Trust you're in the heads of many with all of what you said. Of course if those laws were implemented, America would become a theocratic republic.

 

[major095]

There is almost nothing in life that we are judged by how we feel. Yet here gay people are trying to do just that. They want to equate homosexuality to the civil rights movement and something as ingrained as race (a physical trait). In fact the woman on the rachel maddow show in fact slipped and called it a "race of homosexual people." If we are going to start going by how we feel, then I feel that I'm white! You buying that? Homosexuality is a choice. It is not defined by how they feel but how they act, or better put, what acts they commit.

You've all heard about some dude that sleeps with other dudes but says he's not gay. And all of you have had the same response......dude please! If you're sticking another dude your gay! His feelings said he wasn't gay, but his actions said he was sweeter than vanilla pudding. Same thing applies the othe way around.

I don't care how you feel, lets look at what your doing. Our actions define us all. Your boss looks at your performance, not your emotional well being. If you cheat on your wife and then tell her, "but I feel closer to you than ever before, " do you think she'll buy that? Even my God in the bible says that to be saved, not only do I have to believe in my heart, but I have to add some action.... I have to confess with my mouth. and in fact though my actions can not save me they indicate if I really love Him or not (faith without works is dead).

Lastly, if they win the debate and we are now defined by our emotions and feelings. if we can not be anything but what our feelings say that we are, what separates us from dogs? they can't control what they do either they just do what they feel. What makes us different is choice.

 

[Apaquelypse]

Personally, I'm glad that they choose to ban the marriages or unions or whatever you want to call it in California. I think the fact that it is even up for discussion shows us all the sickening reasoning we have allowed ourselves as a nation to indulge in. I find it appalling that we even entertain the thought so much so, that folks have to pass laws or amend laws about the topic.

Almost every major religion known to the world, condemns homosexuality, and yet our nation wants to not condemn, because its judging, and indirectly condone homosexuality, though God forbids, so much so that we are at odds about whether they should or should not be allowed to be married. Am I the only person left in the US who just has the wtf face?

Morally speaking, acting on homosexual urges are no different than acting on the urges of hunger and addiction. In the same manner that you can control what you eat and have the capacity to overcome addiction, you also have the ability to control and overcome ALL sexual urges if you so choose.

Sexually speaking, we are neither homosexual nor heterosexual, until we actually engage in a sexual act with another person, so we are only "born with" the ability to have sex, but not necessarily with the directions....some people masturbate, some like sheep, some like children (so sick) but none were born any particular way, folks like what they like - in the same manner that some babies like juice bottles more than water bottles (they only know that they thirst)

Lastly, since marriages are both ordained (approved) by both God (first) and the State (second), how can the state make changes to the rule without consulting the God first?

 

[Apaquelypse]

Fornication, sex outside of marriage, is also against God's law. So is adultery. Why not have laws against that also?



I agree with you 100%. While I'm 100% heterosexual, it's none of my business if Adam and Steve wants to get married.


There are some things that people shouldn't be allowed to vote on.

Go to divorce court and you will see all the laws on adultry.


Its your business way more than you recognize right now. We can only ignore things for so long before we are forced to make a decision.


And there are some things that shouldn't be up for being voting on.

 

[bluedog]

Fornication, sex outside of marriage, is also against God's law. So is adultery. Why not have laws against that also?



I agree with you 100%. While I'm 100% heterosexual, it's none of my business if Adam and Steve wants to get married.



There are some things that people shouldn't be allowed to vote on.

I couldn't disagree with you more my friend. Marriage is a covenant between man and God and it's not to be taken lightly or use to make a mockery of God.

 

[Kendrick]

Fornication, sex outside of marriage, is also against God's law. So is adultery. Why not have laws against that also?

Some jurisdictions, a total of 12 in the Southern and Eastern United States, as well as the State of Wisconsin, passed statutes creating the offense of "fornication" that prohibited sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons of the opposite sex.

A decade ago, more than one-third of the states still had criminal bans on fornication.

Fornication laws did have their day, though. According to historian Cornelia Dayton (as cited in an article by law professor Anne Coughlin), fornication comprised the single largest part of the criminal docket in New England from 1690 to 1760.

And, much more recently, many states actively enforced criminal bans on fornication during the anti-vice era of the 1920s and 1930s. So-called "crimes against morality" including fornication, adultery, bastardy, and abandonment occupied a notable portion of most local criminal dockets.

However, the law is rarely enforced because very few offenders hardly get taken to court for the act. And the laws are struck down in most courts because they are deemed outdated to state constitutions.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/25/grossman.oldlaws/index.html

 

[SAME OLD G]

Justin that vote has Jack squat to do with fear. Stop making stuff up unless you have some foundation to base it off of please.

Exactly, it ain't got jack to do with fear.

 

[PVSAX99]

I couldn't disagree with you more my friend. Marriage is a covenant between man and God and it's not to be taken lightly or use to make a mockery of God.

No one sin is greater than the other...right?

So, instead of worrying about another man's...err other men's sins, shouldn't one focus on one's own sins? Nobody is taking this deal lightly. But if one decides to support the government in making these rules that affect people's "immoral" lifestyles, then why doesn't that supporter get on the governmnet to make laws and bills that affect ALL "immoral" lifestyles? Marinate on that for a minute...It is a VERY loaded question.

Pre-marital sex is wrong and just as immoral as gay marriage IMO (as has been mentioned many times before). Where are the bills that prohibit this?

If you ask me, I'd say that politicians are the most immoral, hypocritical people I know. They should be the LAST set of people trying to tell other's how to live their own personal lives.

 

[ToPdOg]

I couldn't disagree with you more my friend. Marriage is a covenant between man and God and it's not to be taken lightly or use to make a mockery of God.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. It's done of your damn business what I do, and it's not of my damn business what you do with respect to each other's personal lives. Most people in the United States make a mockery of that covenant that they call a marriage anyway. How are a bunch of single people and/or marriage people (where the divorce rate is over 50%) gonna tell someone else who they can and can't marry? You can't use the bible to make every single law. If every sin was against the law, we'd all be criminals.

 

[ToPdOg]

No one sin is greater than the other...right?

So, instead of worrying about another man's...err other men's sins, shouldn't one focus on one's own sins? Nobody is taking this deal lightly. But if one decides to support the government in making these rules that affect people's "immoral" lifestyles, then why doesn't that supporter get on the governmnet to make laws and bills that affect ALL "immoral" lifestyles? Marinate on that for a minute...It is a VERY loaded question.

Pre-marital sex is wrong and just as immoral as gay marriage IMO (as has been mentioned many times before). Where are the bills that prohibit this?

If you ask me, I'd say that politicians are the most immoral, hypocritical people I know. They should be the LAST set of people trying to tell other's how to live their own personal lives.

I could not agree with this more. This is exactly how I feel about this issue.

 

[jag4life]

No one sin is greater than the other...right?

So, instead of worrying about another man's...err other men's sins, shouldn't one focus on one's own sins? Nobody is taking this deal lightly. But if one decides to support the government in making these rules that affect people's "immoral" lifestyles, then why doesn't that supporter get on the governmnet to make laws and bills that affect ALL "immoral" lifestyles? Marinate on that for a minute...It is a VERY loaded question.

Pre-marital sex is wrong and just as immoral as gay marriage IMO (as has been mentioned many times before). Where are the bills that prohibit this?

If you ask me, I'd say that politicians are the most immoral, hypocritical people I know. They should be the LAST set of people trying to tell other's how to live their own personal lives.

No one is legislating any of the other sins into mainstream acceptance.

 

[players]

Normally I wouldn't care for the issue of gay marriage. Then again, I don't care for marriage. But when rights are taken away from a marginalized people(s), I can't totally turn a deaf ear and blind eye to this.

However, this sends a slightly chilling message and perhaps re-energizes those on the front lines of the LGBT movement.

What's being posted is an editorial that was sent via email (no link other than an email). Hopefully this isn't a violation.

If you don't have the stomach or open min to read or comment on it, don't. But I can say this, it's throught-provoking to say the least.

SCARED STRAIGHT INTO VOTING FOR 8: Are African Americans the most homophobic people in America?


African American voters in California voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8, writing anti-gay discrimination into California’s constitution and banning same-sex marriage.

Seventy percent (70%) of African American voters approved Prop 8, according to exit polls, compared to 53% of Latino voters, 49% of white voters, 49% of Asian voters.

How is it that one of California's smallest minorities (6%) and arguably the most discriminated group in America, "African American" people, would vote to legally descriminate against anyone knowing what we as a people have gone through in this country?

It is amazing how the oppressed become the oppressors.

I think that Black people are afraid. As a matter of fact, I believe that black people are the most fearful group in American history. Our ancestors were conditioned by the slavemaster to be afraid. Christianity was twisted and distorted and used to enslave our ancestors and culture of fear that has been handed down through the generations.

Afraid that if we don't walk right, talk right, dress right, have sex right or vote right, we will go to straight to hell.

Black churches have adopted the same practices handed down from our slave handlers using the bible as a way to keep up us in check and to whip us into submission.

Another manifestation of our fear is self loathing. We see it in statistics about our health, black on black crime, prison incarceration rates and substance abuse. As a people, many of us are simply embarassed. Black people will do whatever it takes to prevent any additional strikes against us. We will even deny others their rights if we believe our chances of getting into heaven will increase.

I truly believe that if civil rights for groups (other than heterosexual black people) were left up to the black majority, there would be a new form of legalized slavery in America, a new inquisition, a powerful campaign of hate.

And although the Mormon Church (white folks) played a huge role in raising the money to ensure the success of Prop 8, many black churches in California jumped right on the band wagon by encouraging their members to Vote Yes on the measure.

When Barack Obama gave his acceptance speech in Grant Park, he made it clear that America is a multi-fabric cloth the includes gay people. And that their is no room in a progressive America for discrimination of any kind. He was clear that anyone who is against this vision of equality for all is indeed against the ideals that will make America better.

I urge people regardless of your orientation to go out and support your brothers and sisters who are "gay". They are marching today at 5:30 in San Francisco at City Hall and you have seen them in the streets of Los Angeles. Join them.

The concepts espoused by Barack Obama, Martin Luther King and Malcom X are not just for black people, they were for all people seeking equality.

Gay and lesbian people in America will have equal rights and it will happen in my lifetime.

Joe Hawkins
Oakland California

Black people have their own individual minds.
I know the media and everyone else will lump us all together and make a negative out of it to try and shame all us bad black people into voting for something that the MAJORITY don't believe in.

It is as simple as that.


And again.
I wish they would stop P.C-ing being GAY with being black.

Ain't nobody denying them jobs, housing, seperate water fountains, etc.
A gay can turn off being gay to get what they want.
They do it all the time.
It's illegal for a gay person to be in the military yet there are untold thousands serving everyday.

HOW?
They lied about being gay to get in.

A black person could not lie about being black when they tried to join the armed services back in the day's of segragation.
A black person could not change color's like a damm camilian if a problem about skin color came up back then or now.

 

[Justin]

Black people have their own individual minds.
I know the media and everyone else will lump us all together and make a negative out of it to try and shame all us bad black people into voting for something that the MAJORITY don't believe in.

It is as simple as that.


And again.
I wish they would stop P.C-ing being GAY with being black. And when did they say that? If you meant to the civil rights struggle, then I could see. But I'd still think you'd be wrong. The civil rights struggle didn't and doesn't end with us Blacks, and it never well. I take a further that it's not just a civil rights issue, it's a human rights issue. Marriage is not something that's to be owned by one sexual orientation..

Ain't nobody denying them jobs, housing, seperate water fountains, etc. A gay can turn off being gay to get what they want.
They do it all the time.
It's illegal for a gay person to be in the military yet there are untold thousands serving everyday.

HOW?
They lied about being gay to get in. Then it wasn't turning it off. They're still gay. And now that's you brought up the legal aspect, in 31 states, it's very legal to fire someone because they're gay and in 39 states it is legal to fire someone for being Transgender. So it ain't a free ride. We as heterosexuals are fairly open about MOST things (not the out there shit but enough), so why shouldn't they? If you don't like what they say cause it fucks with your mind, either don't give it notice or move away from the conversation. Hey that's what I do.


A black person could not lie about being black when they tried to join the armed services back in the day's of segragation.
A black person could not change color's like a damm camilian if a problem about skin color came up back then or now.

Is that the only argument brothas have? Sorry, it's not washing with THIS brotha has. It's as best a "losers game" argument at best. If you're being denied due to sexual preference and don't give a real answer, I'm not buying it. Hiding it would be lying and if you wanted more lies, then you basically want the dl in all it's manifestations. And there's no way getting around.

Exactly, it ain't got jack to do with fear.

You're not proving it at all. How is it NOT?

 

[players]

Then what does it have to do with?

Belief's.

The overwhelming majority of black people DON'T believe in the GAY lifestyle.

What in heck do we have to fear?
Guess that is going to go hand and hand with a str8 person being labeled as "not sure about their sexuality" just because they don't believe in the gay lifestyle.

A person want to live gay, then do it.
Just don't throw a hissy fit if I make a simple statement saying that I don't believe in it in MY LIFE.

 

[Da Slim One]

Ok, I just have to weigh in on this topic. I read most of the post but not all of them, so if I am repeating something already discussed before I apologize.

Now here we go. I just moved to SoCal in Dec. I am a born again Christian, and I voted for prop 8.

I have learned that some of the most hateful people in SoCal are gay people. Anyone that has a differing opinion of them and their lifestyle is instantly attacked. I have no problems with gay people, one of my dearest friends is gay and I still love her today as I did before she told me.

Homosexuality, in my opinion is a learned thing. Dahill mentioned in his post that he has known kids who was 7 and they knew they would grow up to be gay. I disagree with that. Is a racist born a racist? No, they are conditioned to be that way. Just as a little boy who is not boy enough is told early on that he is gay, fruity, different. After a while that will take seat in his subconsious mind and he will forever have to deal with why he thinks that he is different.

Or in the case of women. Every gay woman, but one, that I have ever met or known all had one of two things in common: 1) either they had a series of very bad heterosexual relationships; or 2) they were awkard and never found attractive in the eyes of guys so they felt that they were different. In both cases....they all suffered very low self-esteem. And in all cases they fell prey to the gay lifestyle by someone that has told them that this is happened because they have been gay along.

Now I am no psychiatrist, so this is all based on my opinions.

I find it very discouraging that because of my religious beliefs that I am being told that I am a bigot. I can't see how a gay person can equate the plight of gay marriage to that of the black civil rights movement. On one hand you have a group of people who have every right in this country that I do....except certified marriage, and even though they do have the right to civil unions. ...but how does this compare to the plight of a people who for 200 yrs were treated as less than a man and barely above an ape. A group of people who were treated as a commodity rather than a human. Think about all of the families that were broken up and disperesed to the highest bidder. A group of people, who for a hundred years after the slavery, were still in bondage with the threats of violence if they exercised the freedoms that they were suppose to have. All while the government turned a blind eye to it. There is no way that this is on the same level.....not even close.

While I don't care what Steve and Mike do in the bedroom, I do have something to say when it is being forced on me. I am a Christian, and for too long Christians have been too afraid to stand up and stand for the word in which we live our lives. Tell me what is the difference between me standing up for what I believe in, and the gay activists that have been marching the streets of LA since tuesday? Its okay for them to speak up and speak out, yet I am suppose to be quiet?

The last time that I checked, this country was ruled by the people, for the people. 52% of Californians voted that they didn't agree with gay marriage and they don't want it forced on them. The people have spoken.

 

[Justin]

Belief's.

The overwhelming majority of black people DON'T believe in the GAY lifestyle.

What in heck do we have to fear?
Guess that is going to go hand and hand with a str8 person being labeled as "not sure about their sexuality" just because they don't believe in the gay lifestyle.

A person want to live gay, then do it.
Just don't throw a hissy fit if I make a simple statement saying that I don't believe in it in MY LIFE.

Let's start with association for 1. You know that mostly stupid saying "birds of a feather flock together"? The vision that makes them sick and seeing it happen more and more (as demonstrated by the explanations given by past initiatives in the south and mid-west) for 2. The a common argument thrown around that the children might suddenly become gay as a result of seeing people who are gay living their lives out loud like we, if not most of us do. Those are the arguments mostly thrown around.

And the issue I'm talking about is the legal right to get married and the rights that come with it, none of which are included in civil unions. Even if they didn't call it marriage but had the rights thereof, it would end the issue. Until this issue is resolved, it's not going to go away. And I would really hate for another Stone issue to come, or worse, have it come, nationwide. And it sounds like the vote is another way of relegating that particular group as second class citizen status.

The last 2 sentences, 100% I agree with.

 

[JaguarNation99]

Interesting discussion. I keep seeing people reference something along the lines of having something forced on them. But what exactly is being forced upon anybody? Did people stop being gay because the bill was banned? Were people going to be forced to be gay if it passed? Not that I have a dog in the fight one way or the other, but I've never heard a rational argument as to how anyone's homosexual marriage affects another person's heterosexual marriage.

 

[Justin]

interesting discussion. I keep seeing people reference something along the lines of having something forced on them. But what exactly is being forced upon anybody? Did people stop being gay because the bill was banned? Were people going to be forced to be gay if it passed? Not that i have a dog in the fight one way or the other, but i've never heard a rational argument as to how anyone's homosexual marriage affects another person's heterosexual marriage.

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Justin]

I find it very discouraging that because of my religious beliefs that I am being told that I am a bigot. I can't see how a gay person can equate the plight of gay marriage to that of the black civil rights movement. On one hand you have a group of people who have every right in this country that I do....except certified marriage, and even though they do have the right to civil unions. ...but how does this compare to the plight of a people who for 200 yrs were treated as less than a man and barely above an ape. A group of people who were treated as a commodity rather than a human. Think about all of the families that were broken up and disperesed to the highest bidder. A group of people, who for a hundred years after the slavery, were still in bondage with the threats of violence if they exercised the freedoms that they were suppose to have. All while the government turned a blind eye to it. There is no way that this is on the same level.....not even close.

While I don't care what Steve and Mike do in the bedroom, I do have something to say when it is being forced on me. I am a Christian, and for too long Christians have been too afraid to stand up and stand for the word in which we live our lives. Tell me what is the difference between me standing up for what I believe in, and the gay activists that have been marching the streets of LA since tuesday? Its okay for them to speak up and speak out, yet I am suppose to be quiet?

The last time that I checked, this country was ruled by the people, for the people. 52% of Californians voted that they didn't agree with gay marriage and they don't want it forced on them. The people have spoken.

You forget that they've pursecuted longer than we've been ON THESE SHORES. Sorry, persecution is persecution, whether you're free or not. And it shouldn't be accepted in any unjust form.

Your last 2 paragraphs is not my beef at all. Your conviction is your conviction. But reasons explained will cause more to speak, more to protest and more to make more parallels. And with most movements of marginalized people, it won't go away quietly not roll over and die.

When equity is truly realized, then there will be calm.

 

[players]

Interesting discussion. I keep seeing people reference something along the lines of having something forced on them. But what exactly is being forced upon anybody? Did people stop being gay because the bill was banned? Were people going to be forced to be gay if it passed? Not that I have a dog in the fight one way or the other, but I've never heard a rational argument as to how anyone's homosexual marriage affects another person's heterosexual marriage.

People seem to overlook the 1 big issue here.

NOBODY IS SAYING GAY PEOPLE CAN'T GET MARRIED.
The issue here is STR8 people wanting to keep Marriage as defined as a Man/Woman thing.

CIVIL UNION's, the option that was offered as an alternative in every state that this is an issue in for Gay couples to get married under, was outright rejected by the Gay community.
Civil Union's would have given them the same "right's" and legal status that they claim are being kept away from them now as couples.

Hell.
If anyone is trying to force something on someone, it's the GAY community rejecting CIVIL UNION's and trying to force redefining MARRIAGE on the rest of us.

Has nothing to do with black people being biased because they HELPED vote this into law.
This is the second time that a vote concerning this has come up in the so-called most foward thinking, progressive state in America.........California.

Both time's the vote out there showed just how average California is in it's thinking.
Get rid of the P.C. and entertainment people the media is alway's showing as the face of California and you will see that the average JOE out there is really not that different than the rest of the country.

 

[Justin]

CIVIL UNION's, the option that was offered as an alternative in every state that this is an issue in for Gay couples to get married under, was outright rejected by the Gay community.
Civil Union's would have given them the same "right's" and legal status that they claim are being kept away from them now as couples.

Hell.
If anyone is trying to force something on someone, it's the GAY community rejecting CIVIL UNION's and trying to force redefining MARRIAGE on the rest of us.

Has nothing to do with black people being biased because they HELPED vote this into law.

Civil Unions don't give the same right by a long shot.
http://www.tspnsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75567&page=2

 

[players]

Civil Unions don't give the same right by a long shot.
http://www.tspnsports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75567&page=2

Civil Unions would have gave gay people the right to marry, divorce, split wealth in case of divorce, get medical benifit's for their partner's and families on their jobs health insurance, file joint taxes together, leave benifit's to partner in case of death, etc, etc.

I don't know about you, but that sure sound's like everything str8 couples get in a marriage to me.

 

[JaguarNation99]

People seem to overlook the 1 big issue here.

NOBODY IS SAYING GAY PEOPLE CAN'T GET MARRIED.
The issue here is STR8 people wanting to keep Marriage as defined as a Man/Woman thing.

CIVIL UNION's, the option that was offered as an alternative in every state that this is an issue in for Gay couples to get married under, was outright rejected by the Gay community.
Civil Union's would have given them the same "right's" and legal status that they claim are being kept away from them now as couples.

Hell.
If anyone is trying to force something on someone, it's the GAY community rejecting CIVIL UNION's and trying to force redefining MARRIAGE on the rest of us.

Has nothing to do with black people being biased because they HELPED vote this into law.
This is the second time that a vote concerning this has come up in the so-called most foward thinking, progressive state in America.........California.

Both time's the vote out there showed just how average California is in it's thinking.
Get rid of the P.C. and entertainment people the media is alway's showing as the face of California and you will see that the average JOE out there is really not that different than the rest of the country.

You didn't really address my point that you put in bold, even if I understand your argument. Still, as Justin has shown, civil unions have never given the same benefits of marriage, mostly because of the Defense of Marriage Act signed by Clinton. Coincidentally, Obama has long talked about wanting to repeal DOMA, although I doubt it will come up in the short term.

 

[Justin]

Civil Unions would have gave gay people the right to marry, divorce, split wealth in case of divorce, get medical benifit's for their partner's and families on their jobs health insurance, file joint taxes together, leave benifit's to partner in case of death, etc, etc.

I don't know about you, but that sure sound's like everything str8 couples get in a marriage to me.

Not when your union isn't recognized in all states.