MusicFan said:The reason I haven't "chimed in" is because I respect everyone's feelings. Too often people talk in order to hear themselves and don't take the time to listen to others. I've been listening and hopefully learning also. :read:
And this is exactly what is going on, BUT some don't seem to agree with others OPINIONS.....not FACTS!How come you people can't seem to fathom that others have DIFFERENT OPINIONS?! DAYUM!!
I mean, ya'll will say something contrary to what others have said and then say..."Well, in my opinion...WTF!! :xeye: Can we not have opinions also?! Again....DAYUM!! :upset:
Let me say that I must apologize because I never meant to upset anyone here with my question regarding the musicianship and precision question I posed to the board in reference to the HBCU and DCI performing groups.
MusicFan...if you hadn't noticed, anytime you post in here and it is not to the agreement of others, your opinions get shot down as ridiculous, but lo and behold, their opinion is gospel.
HBCU Bands vs. DCI Drum Corps
- Thread starter MusicFan
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The movie "Drumline" was cool. Many people really enjoyed it. Wouldn't it be cool to have a documentary ala "Hoop Dreams" on the day to day activities of someone who plays Trumpet in The Human JukeBox. From initial crabbing to the last day of the season of their last year! Talk about entertaining!!!! :bowdown:
Hey, I didn't play at SU but I give props where they are due!!!
MusicFan
Hey, I didn't play at SU but I give props where they are due!!!
MusicFan
Prof K
Active Member
I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time following you.SUtrp96 said:
First you say "It aint different levels" but then you say "...we have SWAC bands that are not on the same level
. So, whats going on here? You jukes often say that you are "Light years ahead of other bands" so does that make you in a different level than some other HBCU bands? But then again you say in #2 that its a different level if they are doing what other bands couldn't do. So what is su doing that other HBCU's can't do? Please clarify your statement so my head can stop spinning because of your confusing post!!!! I don't even want to get on the rest of what you posted...YET.
Prof K
Active Member
Music Fan, SLT is right!!!! sutrp and I NEVER agree on anything...EVER!!! I don't know if its because we are from rival schools or what (GSU - su). But I DO respect his opinion. I don't like what he has to say or the way he says it sometimes but I guess we mutualy agree to disagree and thats the way it is.
dacontinent
Preacher
This thread has been a lot more interesting than I thought it would be. I think that the real question not whether the skills are better in one arena or the other. The differences in what we see on the field HBCU shows vs. DCI shows lie not in the capability of the musicians. Rather, it is in the DEMAND put on the performers.
The following are a few generalizations and not intended to put anyone into a box
This does not mean that HBCU's do not have the abilities or personnel to execute these. Quite to the contrary. We have plenty of people who can execute all of these. We simply do not demand it of them.
By the same token:
However, I think that the biggest difference between the two is who the target audience is. The DCI corps has target audience of about 10 judges. Half of those judges are in the stands and the other half of them are on the field with the band listening and observing at point blank range. The audience in the stands is close to 100% corps people who have similar but less developed expectations that the judges do. The target audience for the HBCU band is the other band, a smattering of band alumni (the two groups that actually care about the musicianship and precision), and 90% of the rest of the audience that wants to see and hear entertainment that they can get at a local club for a cover charge.
Someone made the point comparing the professionalism of an orchestra to a jazz band earlier. Both groups maybe professional but rarely would you find them on the same bill because the audiences are typically completely different. Bela Fleck and the Flecktones rendition of Beethoven's 9th would be very colorful, but the crowd at Philadelphia's symphony hall would not likely be impressed. By the same token, the Philadelphia Orchestra playing Scratch & Sniff at The Quick would be just as colorful and met incredulously by the audience there. The two groups, highly professional and performing excellently, would be out of their leagues.
Now, I am going to make the same point that I have been making that I started when I was granted the privilege of speaking in a faculty meeting at Jackson State during the summer of 1981:
I appreciate the heart, soul, culture, heritage - the gamut that our HBCU institutions bring to the table. I shudder to thing where Blacks would be without them. However, for the sake of our institutions' continued existence, we cannot be content to compete with each other. As has always been the case in this country we have to be able to be the best at what we do AND at what those other schools do if we are going to give our graduates the opportunities to compete in the fields where were certify capable of competing with the best in the world. If we are not willing to do that, then we are lying to our graduates, we are lying to the world, and we will only certify our own self-destruction.
The following are a few generalizations and not intended to put anyone into a box
- HBCU field drills typically do not include bands marching backwards, sideways, nor in obliques.
- HBCU field shows rarely feature instrumental soloing or ensemble presentations as part of a musical selection.
- HBCU dance troupes rarely do anything other than dance while the aux in DCI shows are required to perform multiple disciplines including dance.
- HBCU's typically do not have full percussion pits and mallet players featured in the shows.
This does not mean that HBCU's do not have the abilities or personnel to execute these. Quite to the contrary. We have plenty of people who can execute all of these. We simply do not demand it of them.
By the same token:
- DCI drills rarely show any symmetry between very first downbeat and the final chord.
- DCI's don't highstep. It is much more difficult to make highstepping look precise.
- DCI shows are really geared to peak for one competition: The DCI Finals. There are changes to every show for each of the preliminary competitions. A corps will typically play in 3 or 4 of these.
However, I think that the biggest difference between the two is who the target audience is. The DCI corps has target audience of about 10 judges. Half of those judges are in the stands and the other half of them are on the field with the band listening and observing at point blank range. The audience in the stands is close to 100% corps people who have similar but less developed expectations that the judges do. The target audience for the HBCU band is the other band, a smattering of band alumni (the two groups that actually care about the musicianship and precision), and 90% of the rest of the audience that wants to see and hear entertainment that they can get at a local club for a cover charge.
Someone made the point comparing the professionalism of an orchestra to a jazz band earlier. Both groups maybe professional but rarely would you find them on the same bill because the audiences are typically completely different. Bela Fleck and the Flecktones rendition of Beethoven's 9th would be very colorful, but the crowd at Philadelphia's symphony hall would not likely be impressed. By the same token, the Philadelphia Orchestra playing Scratch & Sniff at The Quick would be just as colorful and met incredulously by the audience there. The two groups, highly professional and performing excellently, would be out of their leagues.
Now, I am going to make the same point that I have been making that I started when I was granted the privilege of speaking in a faculty meeting at Jackson State during the summer of 1981:
I appreciate the heart, soul, culture, heritage - the gamut that our HBCU institutions bring to the table. I shudder to thing where Blacks would be without them. However, for the sake of our institutions' continued existence, we cannot be content to compete with each other. As has always been the case in this country we have to be able to be the best at what we do AND at what those other schools do if we are going to give our graduates the opportunities to compete in the fields where were certify capable of competing with the best in the world. If we are not willing to do that, then we are lying to our graduates, we are lying to the world, and we will only certify our own self-destruction.
SUtrp96
HBCU SCREAMING CHAMP 99'
Prof K said:I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time following you.
First you say "It aint different levels" but then you say "...we have SWAC bands that are not on the same level
I said that because there are different levels of SHOWMANSHIP in the SWAC!!
Some concentrate MORE on DRILLING and others focus more on dancing....
SU, JSU and FAMU to me (IMO) execute drills and put on a show with out focusing heavily on dancing..... From observation, this year I weas very impressed with UAPB..... Not singling bands out, but you have your bands in the MEAC and other conferences that don't have they high level of energy..
Now the question is...
Is it because of the program?
Is it because of they can't (because they don't have those level players)
What ever it may be, HBCU's obviosly take the field for the same GOALS...And it is clear as day there are different levels....
I won't name the things SU do that others CAN'T do, we see it year to year on footage or in person.... Let's not act like it's a big surprise....
kremesaver
"set your own standards"
:what: I've enjoyed and respect everyone's opinion so far because their are some good responses. However, my opinion is rather different:
:lecture: We don't need to be in the same league or do a similar style to compare to DCI. My first thought was with everyone else..."no, HBCU" could not compete with DCI". :shame:
If you master your craft, you can compete with anybody!!!
I say that to say this: and please don't get me wrong because I love my HBCU's but.............we put more enery in the wrong areas. We focus on, making sure "crabs" wear bald heads rather than can he play. Also on, if somebody breaks your section, you better beat him down rather than work hard to make the section fantastic so that people will respect you enough to not even try you. Or we are to busy boasting about how better we are than another bands program. If we were working hard to make our own better, we would not have time to point at the other band.
:shame: It only appears that we are not on the level of DCI because we don't raise our own bar. Like I always say, don't follow standards, set them. I bet if you compared DCI to any HBCU band during their early years, it would be a good race. Don't yall get it, our generation is the reason things are the way they are. Sure, individual wise, we can play and are physically equal if not better than DCI. They beat us by pure mentality!!!
:lecture: Someone said, with a schedule like theirs, it would take 40 years to graduate. :shame: Excuses, if our ancestors such as BTW, Bethune-Cookman, F. Douglas Dr. M.L. King, etc... could graduate....with all the segregation, racism, and hangings going on, sureley we could graduate "in a timely manner" with nothing but studying and band practice to worry about. We have habitually trained ourselves in a black hole.......like I said, we just have the wrong mentality.
:tup: If we stop focusing on the nonsense and continue to improve what our founding bandsmen/women created, MusicFan wouldn't have had to ask that question!!! Bottom line, YES we could so long as we wake up and stop making a mockery of our heritage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ps.....da Continent, very excellent response. Also, MusicFan, excellent and intelligent topic!!!!
:lecture: We don't need to be in the same league or do a similar style to compare to DCI. My first thought was with everyone else..."no, HBCU" could not compete with DCI". :shame:
If you master your craft, you can compete with anybody!!!
I say that to say this: and please don't get me wrong because I love my HBCU's but.............we put more enery in the wrong areas. We focus on, making sure "crabs" wear bald heads rather than can he play. Also on, if somebody breaks your section, you better beat him down rather than work hard to make the section fantastic so that people will respect you enough to not even try you. Or we are to busy boasting about how better we are than another bands program. If we were working hard to make our own better, we would not have time to point at the other band.
:shame: It only appears that we are not on the level of DCI because we don't raise our own bar. Like I always say, don't follow standards, set them. I bet if you compared DCI to any HBCU band during their early years, it would be a good race. Don't yall get it, our generation is the reason things are the way they are. Sure, individual wise, we can play and are physically equal if not better than DCI. They beat us by pure mentality!!!
:lecture: Someone said, with a schedule like theirs, it would take 40 years to graduate. :shame: Excuses, if our ancestors such as BTW, Bethune-Cookman, F. Douglas Dr. M.L. King, etc... could graduate....with all the segregation, racism, and hangings going on, sureley we could graduate "in a timely manner" with nothing but studying and band practice to worry about. We have habitually trained ourselves in a black hole.......like I said, we just have the wrong mentality.
:tup: If we stop focusing on the nonsense and continue to improve what our founding bandsmen/women created, MusicFan wouldn't have had to ask that question!!! Bottom line, YES we could so long as we wake up and stop making a mockery of our heritage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ps.....da Continent, very excellent response. Also, MusicFan, excellent and intelligent topic!!!!
dacontinent said:
dacontinent - Great!!!!!...I enjoyed this tremendously! For sure, DCI and HBCU Bands or other Bands in general are totally different - different goals, different instrumentation, etc. By the way, I noticed your affiliation with Jackson State....when the world bowed to bands from FAMU and Grambling bands, The Sonic Boom of Jackson State was kicking ***** under the radar!!! But look ahead and Southern has passed everyone.... :wavey:
Your comments were thoughtful, logical, and well received!!!
Regards,
MusicFan
Let me start of first by saying congratulations to Justin Douglas- A member of the PVAMU Marching Storm AND the 2004 DCI Champion Rosemont, IL group "The Cavaliers!" Justin is a Tuba player in both groups.
I came from a a corp style high school so our program was based on the same stlye as DCI. I always thought that the show style band was much easier that corp stlye... (i.e. a lot of booty shaking and playing on 2's and 4's) Well I has sadly mistaken. During my crab year, I was basically thrown into a stlye that I had never been a part of. I watched the Bayou Classic over the years but that was not enough. The show style band was just as intense as the corp style had been in high school. The percussion playing was WAY MORE DIFFICULT THOUGH!!! (Not to start an argument...) but this is why I feel that "The BOX" is on a different level that other drumlines. I am a snare player and the whole line at PV studies snare solos from rudimental cook books. We are past the basic 40 rudiments and excelling through the hybrids.(you might not understand) I agree with Music Fan by saying that many HBCU drumlines are disappointing with the musicianship displayed.
True enough, I've witness some of the best in DCI but I do believe that there are individuals in HBCU bands who could compete on the DCI level. Just as their trumpets scream, so do ours. The only differences I would point out would be stlye(of course) discipline, and percussion. As far as musicianship, many bands are on the same level, it just wont be displayed within the HBCU style.
I came from a a corp style high school so our program was based on the same stlye as DCI. I always thought that the show style band was much easier that corp stlye... (i.e. a lot of booty shaking and playing on 2's and 4's) Well I has sadly mistaken. During my crab year, I was basically thrown into a stlye that I had never been a part of. I watched the Bayou Classic over the years but that was not enough. The show style band was just as intense as the corp style had been in high school. The percussion playing was WAY MORE DIFFICULT THOUGH!!! (Not to start an argument...) but this is why I feel that "The BOX" is on a different level that other drumlines. I am a snare player and the whole line at PV studies snare solos from rudimental cook books. We are past the basic 40 rudiments and excelling through the hybrids.(you might not understand) I agree with Music Fan by saying that many HBCU drumlines are disappointing with the musicianship displayed.
True enough, I've witness some of the best in DCI but I do believe that there are individuals in HBCU bands who could compete on the DCI level. Just as their trumpets scream, so do ours. The only differences I would point out would be stlye(of course) discipline, and percussion. As far as musicianship, many bands are on the same level, it just wont be displayed within the HBCU style.
BLAQUE PRINCE
Fug <insert your school here>!
dacontinent said:
This sums it up here. The discussion should never have gotten down to individual talent because you will find it in both groups. The difference is in the trade-off of entertainment vs complexity. HBCU's strive to entertain and must learn new shows in a shorter amount of time and with less daily practice time. DCI groups learn one show with more practice time and go all out packing as much amazing stuff into that one show that the can. But once you see that show thats it for the year. Yes what they do is on another level that HBCU's could easily reach if we decided to give up the entertainment factor. That is the only reason DCI is on another level. It has nothing to do with talent or abillity.
Crunchy B said:
WAY TO GO JUSTIN!!!!! I don't doubt than many others from PV could have done the same thing...just not everyone!
Crunchy B said:
Wow, so, you're high school band had no woodwinds? But more importantly, did everyone in your high school have the talent to play with PV or the Cavies? I'm THRILLED that you are not only a drummer, but a snare drummer....Do you believe that everyone in the PV snare line (since you play snare) would make the Cavie Snare line based upon talent?
Crunchy B said:
I don't doubt that drumming at most colleges is more challenging that drumming in high school regardless of the style. I'd expect the PV football team to beat up most high school teams. Is there anyone who wouldn't?
Crunchy B said:
That thrills me tremendously!!! Why the reluctance to put it on the field? I know, I know, the STYLE doesn't allow for advanced technical playing.... :xeye:
Crunchy B said:
I have no doubt that the best of HBCU could do it. I just don't think everyone has the playing ability to do it (I'm speaking what I know - percussion). Regarding the screaming trumpets - remember that alot of DCI corps use G Sopranos and not the B Flat Trumpets although there is a trend in DCI towards the B Flat Trumpets.
Crunchy B said:
Too bad....but here's a similar situation...many R&B Drummers (set) are great drummers but since the music doesn't call for it they don't have the opportunity to demonstrate their skill. However, many of them don't grow technically because of this.... Makes sense though - can you imagine Anita Bakers drummer going OFF while she's trying to sing something sweet?
Sorry, but it's time for the drumlines of HBCU's to find more venues to play because MANY WANT TO HEAR HEAR THE DRUMS...I know, I know, If I want to see 'em come early, or late, or by the bus, or to practice, or the pep rally, or to area 51, or spin around three times and click my heels....come on - can't the drums do more than keep time during the shows???? I HATE IT...What's next, maybe Jill Scott should just HOLD the mic during her next show!!!! NO, I want to hear Jill Sing and I want to hear/see the drums play. It goes without saying how I feel about the single tom tenor but I'll keep quiet on that one... :upset:BTW - PV's drumline is indeed good. Since you were in Texas, ever check out North Texas' drumline? Also, there's some Sr. Corps that you can still march with if you are interested. Check out www.dcacorps.org Don't stop playing!!!!!
MusicFan
BLAQUE PRINCE
Fug <insert your school here>!
^^^^^ MusicFan it seems that what you are trying to get at is that pound for pound HBCU's don't have the talent that DCI groups have by individual basis. I don't think you can make that generalization. You can go to a DCI group and find members that could not cut it in a showstyle band. I have seen some on other message boards say they can't get the marching down. Some may not be able to dance and play at the same time. What you are saying works both ways. Not all DCI members could make an HBCU band and vice versa.
BLAQUE PRINCE said:
Yes, I agree with you wholeheartedly.. :tup: .it works both ways - there are many DCI members who could not make it in a showstyle band! Some could, but not all for sure. However let's take it a step further than that. Let's talk about the major barrior that each would have to face in order to "cut it" in the other's style. I agree with you regarding the DCI member's largest challenge of dancing and playing simultaneously. But do we all agree that the largest challege the HBCU bandmember would have is centered around playing their instrument in a more challenging manner? :goodbad:
Like Puffy and Nas Said "You can hate me now"....I'll slow down a bit...had to throw some in, this is indeed suppose to be somewhat entertaining, right? :nod2:
But answer me this before we become emotionally involved with the facts :what: Can we agree that, while not clearly defined, there are levels of playing golf, basketball, or even trumpet? For certain - music/marching is subjective and purely an expresion of art...something that can't be judged objectively. I'm not going down that road. Let me be clear before about that before I come to my point. What I'm saying is that clearly you play your own instrument at a higher level that you did when you first picked it up, right? I mean, there is a progression of ability...at least one would hope.
Hold on to your hats - I'm about to say it....The demonstrated instrumental playing levels in DCI Drum and Bugle Corps is superior to that contained with HBCU Showbands.
That doesn't mean that anything should change in our showbands. I just thought that we should agree to acknowledge that there are very similar organizations that are excuting musicianship at a higher rate. Let's at least take a "so what?" attitude toward it. I'd simply ask those who ASSUME that the showbands are demonstrating more musianship to take a look the next time they have an opportunity to see a DCI corp....
MusicFan said:
I believe that there is talent on Prairie View's snare line that could make the Cavie's for sure. This summer I watched the cavies full practice before a performance. I walked right up to the snare line and listened to what they were playing. I used to feel that their level of playing was far superior to ours but in actuality, they were playing on the same level. It was nothing they were playing that I felt our section couldn't do.(HONESTLY)
MusicFan said:
Have you ever witnessed a Prairie View A&M Halftime perfomance? I take it that you haven't. If so, you would have witnessed advanced technical playing.
BLAQUE PRINCE
Fug <insert your school here>!
MusicFan said:
I don't agree. You are assuming that all an HBCU band member plays is the music in the book. Yes the book is easier but what about concert season? What about individual practice? I achieved alot of accomplishments on my horn outside of marching band music and so do many others in our bands.
BLAQUE PRINCE said:
Here's what I said, "The demonstrated instrumental playing levels in DCI Drum and Bugle Corps is superior to that contained with HBCU Showbands."
I respect your opinion so much until I'm going to ask you if you agree or disagree with my statement.
To the PV guy, I must admit I haven't taken a close look at your battery. Now I'm intrigued. Can you send me a link of something like this for example?
Here's my guys from 2001:
http://www.vicfirth.com/news/DCI2001/inthelot/boston1.html
Here's some guys that are better than mine: The Concord Blue Devils battery playing some of their show music from 2001:
http://www.vicfirth.com/news/DCI2001/inthelot/BD3.html
http://www.bluedevils.org/tty/index.php?year=2004&dir=media/video
This is probably my last post....got to go and finish writing some music. I'm looking forward to seeing some videos of drumlines (especially PV based upon the comments). Please, could I get some SU videos too? I probably would have played in that band had I went there rather than (not gonna say, but it's an HBCU that will always be dear to my heart). I better stop there.
If any snare drummers haven't been smoked in a while, maybe I'll run into you and show you what's happenning! :devil2: (Some things never change...people who play that instrument will always be cocky like fighter pilots!!!!) :uzi:
Love Everyone!!!
MusicFan
BLAQUE PRINCE
Fug <insert your school here>!
MusicFan said:
Yes I agree that they DEMONSTRATE more playing ability. That was never in question if you read my earlier post. I said there is a tradeoff between level of difficulty and show versatility for entertainment.
Now you on the other hand seemed to imply that not all or not many HBCU band members could make DCI as if the opposite would not be true. Thats what I was addressing. Because the HBCU bands don't demonstrate the same level of playing on a consistent basis that doens't mean that the DCI level talent is not there.
I will say that I do believe DCI could have a slight talent edge. They are centralized magnets that can pull talent from all over the country with no long term commitment or life changing decisions being made by the participants unlike enrolling in a college. The worlds #1 trumpet player may want to be an Aeronutical Engineer which I don't think any of the HBCU's offer. So you won't see him at an HBCU. But there is nothing stopping him from participating in DCI.
I would also dare to say that in the marching arena they may be more well known than the HBCU's. But overall the talent difference that is there has nothing to do with performance level of the groups. Its a matter of long-term vs short-term commitment.
BLAQUE PRINCE said:
You are correct.
BLAQUE PRINCE said:
I'm sorry. I thought I was clear regarding the fact that I thought the street went both ways.
BLAQUE PRINCE said:
That's a very logical statement. But for sure, we seem to agree that it isn't displayed or demonstrated if it is indeed there. I see that both of us agree that the HBCU playing ability could possibly improve.
BLAQUE PRINCE said:
Agreed...athough I've had friends in the past who went to FAMU and Alabama State to march in their bands.
BLAQUE PRINCE said:
Well, North Carolina A&T, Tuskegee University, and Prarie View's engineering programs are pretty good...but that's another discussion for another day...
BLAQUE PRINCE said:
Bottom line is that I think this topic is now dead/concluded. The discussion has gone from "Who's demonstrating the most talent" (What other measuring tool is there if it does not lie in "demonstration") to explaining WHY the DCI Corps are "better"... I know, I know, the "better" word is uncomfortable, but if not through inspection, how else would we know that grass is green and the sky is blue? I'll concede that the HBCU Bands have another adgenda due to their "judges" (fans) being very simply minded (in a musical manner...let's not get emotional) and their idea of entertainment is not nor should it to be expected to be as advanced as the many muscians who are reading this very post. So, everyone should get back to being the "BEST BAND IN THE LAND".........."IN THE LAND!!!!........" and focus on what no one does better - entertain us during our football games. Hey, let's get a rapper, put down our instruments, and do the "shake"...might as well....since the instruments don't get played at a highest possible level on the field. Mind you, I speak from a percussive viewpoint. I don't have the background to gage the level of play of the other musical instruments.
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