Black preachers who 'whoop' -- minstrels or ministers?

[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

If you cannot see; understand my point of view; or accept my view that is Ok. I have no more to give you. I would only be repeating what I have previously written.

OOOOKKKK, now I see clearer where your doctrine is centered.

I suspected from your previous posts that this would be the real dividing line between us. Our house of worship (and many others) still experience these sign gifts ... along with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

I spent few months in one of these type of institutions when I was in college, it would be offensive for me to state my experience and what I actually learned.

2 Timothy 3:16-17. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 2:15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Good Day and God Bless







Good Day and God Bless.

 

[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

You seem to violate your own premise here by concluding at all. How do you jump from Jesus receiving the Holy Ghost without measure to the rest of us receiving varying measures? It would be appropriate (and accurate) to conclude that the rest of us receive less than the measure that Jesus did; but where is the counsel of scripture that would even suggest that you would receive a different measure than I, Dr. H, nevaehinvesting or Paul, the apostle?

I missed this in my first read. Your reply appears to be somewhat confusing or what I originally posted might have been confusing to others. So for the benefit of all, I will repeat my point. Again, I stand by my statement 100%. Dac. it is obvious you do not agree but others may benefit.

First, The Holy Spirit is a Person and is the same it has not variability. That which varies (i.e. given by measure) are the works of the Spirit, Gifts of the Spirit or Grace Gifts.

Dac, I do believe that Dr. H, nevaehinvesting, Paul, You (I am not sure about you…just kidding) and all believers are given the Spirit (i.e. works of the Spirit, Gifts of the Spirit or Grace Gifts) by measure.

The reason why I gave an abundance of scriptures in prior post was to give supporting Biblical data to validate my position. If we read the whole counsel of God (i.e. the whole Bible), we can conclude this fact; the same is how we can validate the Trinity and the Rapture even though those words are not in the Bible.

Jesus Had the Spirit without measure (i.e. the works of the Spirit, Gifts of the Spirit or Grace Gifts were without limits), scripture concludes this fact.

John 3 34. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

If He had the Spirit without measure, one may conclude that the Spirit is given by measure (i.e. the works of the Spirit, Gifts of the Spirit or Grace Gifts at varying measures).

We (Christians) are given the Spirit by measure (i.e. the works of the Spirit, Gifts of the Spirit or Grace Gifts by varying measures ). Such too is supported by scripture:

Ephesians 4:7. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Additional versions for clarity

Living Bible
Ephesians 4:7 However, Christ has given each of us special abilities--whatever he wants us to have out of his rich storehouse of gifts.

Revised Standard
Ephesians 4:7 But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.

Simple English
Ephesians 4:7 Each one of us has received God's gracious love. Christ gave it by measure.

LIT
Ephesians 4:7. |1520| to one |1161| But |1538| each |2257| of us |1325| was given |5485| gracious love |2596| according |3588| to the |3358| measure |3588| of the |1431| gift |5547| of Christ.

Again, can add no more than this nor can I convey my faith of such to another.

:lecture:To Get Your Measure …You need to first Get to Know He Who Gives by measure.

Good Day and God Bless.

 

[dacontinent]

Thanks for clearing that ^^^^^ up. You have couched the measure of the Spirit by gifting while I have Him as the person who distributes those gifts. It is a perspective that we will differ on, but at least I understand where you are coming from.

That takes me back to 1 Cor 12-14 where we are given gifts and may acquire more.

 

[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

Thanks for clearing that ^^^^^ up. You have couched the measure of the Spirit by gifting while I have Him as the person who distributes those gifts. It is a perspective that we will differ on, but at least I understand where you are coming from.

That takes me back to 1 Cor 12-14 where we are given gifts and may acquire more.

I am not sure I understand the "couched the measure". The measure consists of both quantity and magnitude, a simple unquestionable reality is that some Christians have many talents and some less; within each given talent there are varying degrees (we may call one more talented or one singer may be called the better singer). The strength the Spirit provided Samson (Judges 14:6) was given at a Greater measure and the power the Spirit provided Elisha was a double portion (2 Kings 2:9), yet the source (The Holy Spirit) is the same. When we scratch the surface of Spiritual Data and get a breakthrough lots of obvious clear profitable information comes out. I am not surprised for God said such would be on if we:

Matthew 7:7-8. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Be careful, Paul never stated nor the Bible imply that we acquire gifts through our own efforts. Paul stated that we should desire and covet the Best Gift; even then he stated the superior focus of Love. This love is agape, which reflects the true Character of Christ, defined by Christ's life and is embodied in Christ. All Gifts are given by God and not by the will of man.

Often when man seeks gifts he errs in that he focus more on the gift than on Christ. More often, man will receive or perceive he has a gift, but he bares not the outward manifestation of such; yet he wants all of the Glory man bestows on such gift. This is probably most obvious in many who said they were call to preach or teach. All false gifts are expose in two ways, lack of power/ineffectiveness and the inability to edify others.

Proverbs 25:14. Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

A true Spiritual Gift from God needs no label or title…it is a light which is undeniable (It cannot be hidden).

• A preacher need not to be called a preacher, those who hear will know if they heard a preacher
• A singer need not to say they are a singer, their singing will declare such to be (or not).

Proverbs 20:11. Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

:lecture:If we seek God first and let Him give us the Gift we are assured not to be deceived.

Matthew 6:33. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things (including gifts He desire any to have) shall be added unto you.

....Subject all things to Scripture

Good Day and God Bless

 

[dacontinent]

...I am not sure I understand the "couched the measure". The measure consists of both quantity and magnitude, a simple unquestionable reality is that some Christians have many talents and some less; within each given talent there are varying degrees (we may call one more talented or one singer may be called the better singer). The strength the Spirit provided Samson (Judges 14:6) was given at a Greater measure and the power the Spirit provided Elisha was a double portion (2 Kings 2:9), yet the source (The Holy Spirit) is the same. When we scratch the surface of Spiritual Data and get a breakthrough lots of obvious clear profitable information comes out. I am not surprised for God said such would be on if we:

Matthew 7:7-8. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
...

Be careful, Paul never stated nor the Bible imply that we acquire gifts through our own efforts. Paul stated that we should desire and covet the Best Gift; even then he stated the superior focus of Love. This love is agape, which reflects the true Character of Christ, defined by Christ's life and is embodied in Christ. All Gifts are given by God and not by the will of man.

In using couched I was attempting to talk about the way you framed the Spirit when you said.

Dac, I do believe that Dr. H, nevaehinvesting, Paul, You (I am not sure about you…just kidding) and all believers are given the Spirit (i.e. works of the Spirit, Gifts of the Spirit or Grace Gifts) by measure.

You seemed to couch the Spirit AS the works and gifts as opposed to my view of the Spirit being the distributor of the works and gifts in the body. As I understand and have experience things, each person is given one or more gifts of grace and commissioned one or more works to do. The gift of each kind is granted to each person receiving that kind of gift - not unlike that parable of the talents. It is up to the receiver of gift to develop acumen in each gift with the leading of the Holy Spirit. Paul says

1 Cor 12:31
But covet earnestly the best gifts : and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.​

and proceeds to show in Chapter 13 that without love the best to the gifts is pointless. He comes back with

1 Cor 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.​

and goes on to talk about the proper setting for prophecy in the local church. So, covet and desire sandwich the operation of gifts by love. Covet and desire do not mean that we do gain the gifts on our own volition. The terms mean that we should have an expectation gifts being added because of our loving stewardship of what we have been given. They are still gifts and they are given as the Holy Spirit deems and not us. All that being said, I would not frame (is that better than couch?) the endowment of the Holy Spirt in the life as a measure of the giftings that operate in that persons life. This might not be the greatest analogy but it would be like all the boys on the block being given different sized footballs for Christmas and then expressing their potential ability to play the game by the size of the ball.

... Often when man seeks gifts he errs in that he focus more on the gift than on Christ. More often, man will receive or perceive he has a gift, but he bares not the outward manifestation of such; yet he wants all of the Glory man bestows on such gift. This is probably most obvious in many who said they were call to preach or teach. All false gifts are expose in two ways, lack of power/ineffectiveness and the inability to edify others.

Proverbs 25:14. Whoso boasteth himself of a false gift is like clouds and wind without rain.

A true Spiritual Gift from God needs no label or title…it is a light which is undeniable (It cannot be hidden).

• A preacher need not to be called a preacher, those who hear will know if they heard a preacher
• A singer need not to say they are a singer, their singing will declare such to be (or not).

Proverbs 20:11. Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.

:lecture:If we seek God first and let Him give us the Gift we are assured not to be deceived.

Matthew 6:33. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things (including gifts He desire any to have) shall be added unto you.

....Subject all things to Scripture

Well said. The other side of that is

Prov 29:18
Where there is no vision , the people perish : but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.​

Going back to the gifting of the talents ... the master expected gain of his stewards. He rebuked the slothful steward for not behaving like the master would. I believe that Paul's exhortation to covet and desire His gifts is in the same vein.

 

[Dr H..]

I was thinking there were only seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit:

“The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.”

Is. 11:2 -

To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.”

1 Cor. 12:8

The Holy Spirit gave these gifts to the early Christians to impart the extra graces they needed to start the Church in a dark ages.

I would think everything outside of those mentioned are talents, i.e., singing.

Not the same as the Fruits of the Holly Spirit

 

[dacontinent]

Dr. H,
Here is what I teach:

• Ministry (office) gifts (Eph 4:11): Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher.
• Motivational (practical) gifts (Rom 12:3 ): Service, Exhortation, Giving, Leadership, Mercy, Helps and Administration.
• Manifestation (spiritual) gifts (1 Cor 12:7): Wisdom, Knowledge, Discernment, Prophecy, Tongues, Interpretation, Faith, Healing and Miracles.

21, if you are counting.

 

[JayRob]

....First, The Holy Spirit is a Person and is the same it has not variability. That which varies (i.e. given by measure) are the works of the Spirit, Gifts of the Spirit or Grace Gifts.

This is unexplainable and close to mythology. How can a spirit be a "person"? If anything, it's an alien.
When it comes to this kind of thinking and religion, sensible logic is oftentimes thrown out the window.

 

[ROYAL BLUE]

In my opinion, Dr. Jerry Young is the best preacher in Jackson, Ms. Yes, he whoops, but it's done in a very smooth way and the message is always understood. I grew up in New Hope Baptist as a young lad, but this type of preaching is not my cup of tea. I thirst for the word of God more than the screaming and hollering on Sunday. I crave for preachers to teach the bible more than preach.

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[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

In my opinion, Dr. Jerry Young is the best preacher in Jackson, Ms. Yes, he whoops, but it's done in a very smooth way and the message is always understood. I grew up in New Hope Baptist as a young lad, but this type of preaching is not my cup of tea. I thirst for the word of God more than the screaming and hollering on Sunday. I crave for preachers to teach the bible more than preach.

:clap:


The Word must be where our thirst resides...not the other activities..

Proverbs 2:1-6 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God. For the Lord giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Matthew 5:6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Good Day and God Bless

 

[Dr H..]

dac

Speaking of speaking in tongues – is that “glossolalia or dialekto.

 

[dacontinent]

dac

Speaking of speaking in tongues – is that “glossolalia or dialekto.

The unnaturally acquired languages - glossolalia

 

[LaCumba]

1 Corinthians 13:10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away

The above scripture is in reference to 1 Corinthians 13:8 (that which is in part). Many seem to believe that the Bible is being referenced as "That Which Is Perfect". While the Bible is complete, when you read those things that are in part, it speaks about Knowledge passing away when "that which is perfect is come". Well, we all know that knowledge has not passed away. As a matter of fact, Jesus said in the end times that knowledge would increase. So it is my understanding that all of these things (gifts) that are in part still exist today, until Jesus (That Which Is Perfect) comes again.

Dr. H,
Here is what I teach:

• Ministry (office) gifts (Eph 4:11): Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor and Teacher.
• Motivational (practical) gifts (Rom 12:3 ): Service, Exhortation, Giving, Leadership, Mercy, Helps and Administration.
• Manifestation (spiritual) gifts (1 Cor 12:7): Wisdom, Knowledge, Discernment, Prophecy, Tongues, Interpretation, Faith, Healing and Miracles.

21, if you are counting.

Most people dont understand just how powerful speaking in tongues (or praying in the Spirit) is. They don't understand that when you speak in tongues, your spirit prays (1 Corinthians 14:14), not your mind. Paul spoke in tongues more than any of the other disciples and even said to forbid not speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39).

1Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

This is how Paul got such great revelation and this is how we can still get great revelation today. Not only can we do this today, but 1 Corinthians 14:14 says that we can also pray for an interpretation. We miss out on so many benefits of having the Holy Spirit with us because we dont understand the full ministry of the Holy Spirit. And I am not talking about the gifts of the Spirit as a vocation. Not everyone that. There is a difference. But everyone does have the ability to pray in the spirit (speak in tongues) in their individual prayer life and pray for an interpretation so that they can understand with their natural mind (revelation knowledge).

However, unbelief will stop the power of God in anyone's life. Jesus himself COULD do no mighty work in his home town because of their unbelief. The bible didn't say He WOULDN'T do it. It says He COULDN'T.