Why Is Judas Isacriot Considered To Be Evil?

[JayRob]

But you appear to find it even harder to understand the difference in what Jesus said and what you claim that He said.

Who was the Jesus character referring to when he stated that "it would've been better if he had never been born?"

Who prophesied that Judas would be the one to betray him? It's the same exact principle that was used to harden the heart and mind of the Egyptian pharoah.

 

[JayRob]

Yes, let's not. Just understand that He offered Himself.

If the Jesus character offered himself, why did he need Judas in the first place?

You have now gone circular.

It's you who has gone circular. Simple honesty in admitting that Judas was setup would prevent me having to repeat myself, but it seems like that's too much to ask for.

I have no idea what this response means in light of the question that I asked.

It's simple enough to understand, unless one doesn't want to admit a simple fact.....that Judas was used as a tool so that prophecy could come to pass, then BLAMED for his action, eventhough it was pre-planned and predestined for him to do what he did in the first place. It can't be that difficult to understand, unless someone just doesn't want to admit the simple truth.

He simply let Judas do what was in his heart.

This was never in Judas' for three years, not until it was the EXACT time for the Jesus character to be crucified. When it became time, then that's when it was ALLOWED to happen. This simply means that Judas' actions were done under "controlled" situations and conditions that were beyond his knowledge and control. It's high time you admit this.
When it became time for satan to enter him, that's when it was allowed to happen. It didn't happen one year too early, or two years too early or even three years too early. It happen at the pre-appointed time on the pre-appointed day. This means that it was done under controlled conditions, with Judas as the pawn without his knowledge that he was being used as a pawn.
The so-called loving Jesus, didn't bother to tell him that he was being used as a pawn for three years.

Exactly what Judas wanted to do. You somehow see this as Jesus' fault.

What did Judas have to gain by betraying the Jesus character? Nothing. He was already promised to be one of the rulers in Jesus' coming kingdom. The thirty pieces of silver was nowhere near enough to make him rich, so why did Judas decide to forsake a person he witnessed heal and raise people from the dead? It makes no sense at all that he would do this for a mere thirty pieces of siliver. This is why it's placed in the annals of fiction where it should remain.

We have been talking about this for many posts now. Judas is the example.
Apparently you are not as well versed in OT scripture regarding the Messiah as you like to think.

Since you're making the claim that I don't know as much as I think I know about OT scripture, what part of my statement was inaccurate? I simply stated that the Jesus character is supposed to return as an all-powerful god the second time and is not scheduled to be betrayed by anyone. What part about this is wrong?

:read:

When have you seen him? Either you are lying or the bible is lying. Didn't scripture say that "no man has seen god at any time"? Yes, it does, but you make claim that you have seen him.

Let me give you this little example.
An executive dictates a letter. The clerical person scribes it. Is it incumbent upon the executive to dictate EVERYTHING that he knows on the subject matter in order to convey to the reader what the executive wants them to know from the letter? Yes, this is a rhetorical question.

A poor example. Fact of the matter is that if the executive who dictated the letter gave out false information, it means that he was either intentionally lying or didn't know what he was talking about and should be disqualified for incompetence or fraud.

Thousands and thousands of people died simply because they thought evil spirits caused diseases instead of microbes. These same beliefs continue to be believed in lesser educated parts of the world today.
It's quite obvious that whomever wrote the bible had no idea that invisible microbes, called bacteria and viruses, existed and are the cause of many deaths. Not one time are microbes even remotely mentioned in the bible....not one time.

I have taken every discussion here on this board above scientific evidence. That comes as no surprise to you since you know that the Bible is not a scientific book: it is a FAITH book.

There it is folks....he FINALLY admitted that the bible is merely a book of "beliefs", based on nothing scientific or factual!!!! WOW!!! The bible is placed above scientific evidence, but it's based on mere faith?! Only in religion folks, only in religion can such nonsense be tolerated by so-called educated folks.

No, the snake (Satan) has not CREATED anything.

So, if the snake (Satan) didn't create killer microbes, are you saying that the so-called "loving" god of the bible is solely responsible for the creation of killer bacteria and killer viruses? That's even worse.

 

[dacontinent]

If the Jesus character offered himself, why did he need Judas in the first place?

He didn't need Judas in order to offer Himself.

It's you who has gone circular. Simple honesty in admitting that Judas was setup would prevent me having to repeat myself, but it seems like that's too much to ask for.

I told you that several posts ago. You just keep going round and round.

It's simple enough to understand, unless one doesn't want to admit a simple fact.....that Judas was used as a tool so that prophecy could come to pass, then BLAMED for his action, eventhough it was pre-planned and predestined for him to do what he did in the first place. It can't be that difficult to understand, unless someone just doesn't want to admit the simple truth.

This was my question.

...What, then, was different about the Gethsemane situation? Perhaps your answer to that question will give you the satisfaction that you seek.

This was your response.

No, it doesn't. The simple matter is that without Judas, prophecies of the Jesus character wouldn't have come to pass. This is the primary issue that is at the heart of the matter.

You did not even bother to address the question.

This was never in Judas' for three years, not until it was the EXACT time for the Jesus character to be crucified. When it became time, then that's when it was ALLOWED to happen. This simply means that Judas' actions were done under "controlled" situations and conditions that were beyond his knowledge and control. It's high time you admit this.
When it became time for satan to enter him, that's when it was allowed to happen. It didn't happen one year too early, or two years too early or even three years too early. It happen at the pre-appointed time on the pre-appointed day. This means that it was done under controlled conditions, with Judas as the pawn without his knowledge that he was being used as a pawn.
The so-called loving Jesus, didn't bother to tell him that he was being used as a pawn for three years.

You seem to have trouble with pronouns and their antecedents. Let me help you: GREED was in Judas' heart long before 3+ years had expired.

What did Judas have to gain by betraying the Jesus character? Nothing.

Money...the stuff he had been stealing for years.

He was already promised to be one of the rulers in Jesus' coming kingdom.

Based on what?

The thirty pieces of silver was nowhere near enough to make him rich, so why did Judas decide to forsake a person he witnessed heal and raise people from the dead? It makes no sense at all that he would do this for a mere thirty pieces of siliver. This is why it's placed in the annals of fiction where it should remain.

First you say that Judas is setup by prophecy; then when the 30 pieces of silver confirm prophecy, you call the prophecy fiction. Please make up your mind.

Since you're making the claim that I don't know as much as I think I know about OT scripture, what part of my statement was inaccurate? I simply stated that the Jesus character is supposed to return as an all-powerful god the second time and is not scheduled to be betrayed by anyone. What part about this is wrong?

Your premise is wrong.

1. When directed to a rabbi, he would tell you that Messiah has not come, so coming back would be completely erroneous.
2. According to Old Testament scriptures, Messiah was only coming. There is no mention of Him coming back.
3. According to Old Testament scriptures, the immortal Messiah is betrayed for 30 pieces of silver that would be used to buy the potter's field.

When have you seen him? Either you are lying or the bible is lying. Didn't scripture say that "no man has seen god at any time"? Yes, it does, but you make claim that you have seen him.

Or ... both me and the bible are telling the truth.
Jn 1:1
Jn 1:18
Jn 14:8,9
1 Jn 1:1-4
Then, jump into Revelation 1 and really get the party started.
Run back to Joel 2 and Acts 2 and you can find me.
:lmao:

A poor example. Fact of the matter is that if the executive who dictated the letter gave out false information, it means that he was either intentionally lying or didn't know what he was talking about and should be disqualified for incompetence or fraud.

I never implied anything about false information.

Thousands and thousands of people died simply because they thought evil spirits caused diseases instead of microbes. These same beliefs continue to be believed in lesser educated parts of the world today.
It's quite obvious that whomever wrote the bible had no idea that invisible microbes, called bacteria and viruses, existed and are the cause of many deaths. Not one time are microbes even remotely mentioned in the bible....not one time.

And tell us why those people didn't/don't believe that microbes cause disease. Your science obviously let them know that the microbes were there. Why didn't/don't they believe the scientific evidence?

There it is folks....he FINALLY admitted that the bible is merely a book of "beliefs", based on nothing scientific or factual!!!! WOW!!! The bible is placed above scientific evidence, but it's based on mere faith?! Only in religion folks, only in religion can such nonsense be tolerated by so-called educated folks.

You use the word MERE to describe faith then use condescending words for other people lacking education!!?? Ignorance is like that.
The Bible is truth. Truth is always placed above facts.

So, if the snake (Satan) didn't create killer microbes, are you saying that the so-called "loving" god of the bible is solely responsible for the creation of killer bacteria and killer viruses? That's even worse.

You are getting warmer, but you still don't get it. Not only is your ignorance not blissful, but your deception has blinded you.

 

[JayRob]

He didn't need Judas in order to offer Himself.

If the Jesus character didn't need Judas, why did he use him in the first place?

I told you that several posts ago. You just keep going round and round.

No, it's you who are evading and evading. Your mind is so fixed on being unwilling to blame the Jesus character for anything, to the point that your credibility is crumbling right before your very eyes. Jesus flat out used Judas and you can't see it out of sheer stubborness.

This was my question.

​

This was your response.

​

You did not even bother to address the question.

I've willingly answered every question asked as I normally do, so try again. I'm not in the business of evading questions by asking generalized questions which have multiple answers.

You seem to have trouble with pronouns and their antecedents. Let me help you: GREED was in Judas' heart long before 3+ years had expired.

Greed? Did it make him rich? Did Judas get rich off of 30 pieces of silver? If the Jesus character realized long before that Judas was greedy, why did he choose him in the first place as one of the leading disciples? Why did he make Judas treasurer? Didn't he have the ability to judge the hearts of his disciples before placing them in responsible positions? Supposedly he did, but his choosing Judas was either a mistake or it was pre-meditated for other purposes. If it was due to the latter, then it's clear that Judas was setup to be used as a "tool".

Money...the stuff he had been stealing for years.

Again, did a few dollars make Judas rich? This "greed" thing makes no sense at all. It's a convenient excuse to paint Judas as the "bad guy" instead of placing part of the blame on the Jesus character.
Besides, if the Jesus character KNEW that Judas had been stealing for years, why....why allow him to remain in that position to be tempted over and over again? It makes no sense at all.

Based on what?

Based on the following verses is why it makes no sense that Judas would forsake his promised position: Luke 22:29-30. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:27-28. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So knowing all of this, why would Judas forsake being ruler over thousands for a few pieces of silver? Again, it makes no sense.

First you say that Judas is setup by prophecy; then when the 30 pieces of silver confirm prophecy, you call the prophecy fiction. Please make up your mind.

Both prophecies are fictional. Here's why: Matthew 27:9-10 claims that this is done to fulfill a prophecy of Jeremiah:

Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled, saying, "And they took the thirty pieces of silver for the price of the one whose price had been set by the sons of Israel; and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me."
The problem here is that the quoted verse appears nowhere in the book of Jeremiah. There is a verse which is quite similar in the book of Zechariah, but there the prophet Zechariah is speaking about himself and no betrayal is involved.

As you should clearly be able to see, the New Testament writers concocted this prophecy in order to make it seem as if the prophecy referred to Judas betraying the Jesus character. These verses have nothing whatsover to do with Judas and the Jesus character.
This alone disqualifies the writers of John because they outright fabricated a prophecy. There you have it.

Your premise is wrong.

1. When directed to a rabbi, he would tell you that Messiah has not come, so coming back would be completely erroneous.
2. According to Old Testament scriptures, Messiah was only coming. There is no mention of Him coming back.

1. 
   
   So, why are you believing anything this rabbi says if he doesn't even know the basics of New Testament prophecy? It's like you're picking and choosing which information to keep, just as long as it goes along with your theory.
   I say both of you are wrong. There's no such thing as a messiah in the first place and there's no such thing as a first or second coming.
   
   

   [*]According to Old Testament scriptures, the immortal Messiah is betrayed for 30 pieces of silver that would be used to buy the potter's field.

   
   As has been shown above, the Old Testament verses had nothing to do with Judas and the Jesus character, so you'll have to find other verses to substantiate the writings in the New Testament.
   
   

   Or ... both me and the bible are telling the truth.
   Jn 1:1 Jn 1:18 Jn 14:8,9 1 Jn 1:1-4
   Then, jump into Revelation 1 and really get the party started. Run back to Joel 2 and Acts 2 and you can find me.

   
   So, why did John lie and state that NO man has seen god at any time? Can you not see the obvious biblical contradictions in the above verses you posted? If you can't then you need to do more studying.
   It truly amazes me how simple language and sentences from the bible can confuse the biblically subjective mind of an educated person who refuses to see obvious contradictions for fear of having to admit that they're present in the bible.
   
   

   And tell us why those people didn't/don't believe that microbes cause disease. Your science obviously let them know that the microbes were there. Why didn't/don't they believe the scientific evidence?

   
   Again this is one of your slight of hand attempts to evade the actual statement/question I posted. Why didn't the bible mention microbes as being the major cause of human diseases? It's because the biblical writers were totally ignorant of such knowledge.
   
   

   You use the word MERE to describe faith then use condescending words for other people lacking education!!?? Ignorance is like that.
   The Bible is truth. Truth is always placed above facts.

   
   Again, you're attempting to evade. You clearly admitted that you only have faith. I admitted that I'd rather have scientific evidence with proven facts to back up that evidence rather than have faith alone.
   The bible is what you base your faith on, but you ignore the many errors, historical blunders, false statements and unfulfulled prophecies scattered throughout the book.
   That's called blind faith and in many parts of science, it's writings would be ruled as unreliable.
   If you'd objectively look at what I'm saying, you'd easily understand why I'm not keen on solely standing on faith alone.
   
   

   You are getting warmer, but you still don't get it. Not only is your ignorance not blissful, but your deception has blinded you.

   
   Again, more evasion. I'll ask again, if satan didn't create killer microbes, whose responsible for creating killer bacteria and virusses? Hopefully you'll answer it this time.
   
   You say that my deception has blinded me? I'm not the one whose solely depending on a book that's full of errors, written hundreds of years ago by UNKNOWN men who believed that evil spirits were the cause of diseases. LOL!!
   Now THAT'S real deception if I ever saw it and you know it.

 

[dacontinent]

If the Jesus character didn't need Judas, why did he use him in the first place?

Scripture does not tell us why. We can draw a lot of conclusions on our own, but that is as close as we can get.

No, it's you who are evading and evading. Your mind is so fixed on being unwilling to blame the Jesus character for anything, to the point that your credibility is crumbling right before your very eyes. Jesus flat out used Judas and you can't see it out of sheer stubborness.

Judas had the same free will as Adam, JayRob, and DAContinent and faced the consequences of his own decisions ... just like Adam, JayRob, and DAContinent. Don't let your stubbornness overlook that.

I've willingly answered every question asked as I normally do, so try again. I'm not in the business of evading questions by asking generalized questions which have multiple answers.

Since you did not willingly answer this question as you normally do, I will assume that you simply missed it ... twice. So, I will give you a third try at it.

...What, then, was different about the Gethsemane situation?​

Greed? Did it make him rich? Did Judas get rich off of 30 pieces of silver? If the Jesus character realized long before that Judas was greedy, why did he choose him in the first place as one of the leading disciples? Why did he make Judas treasurer? Didn't he have the ability to judge the hearts of his disciples before placing them in responsible positions? Supposedly he did, but his choosing Judas was either a mistake or it was pre-meditated for other purposes. If it was due to the latter, then it's clear that Judas was setup to be used as a "tool".
...
Again, did a few dollars make Judas rich? This "greed" thing makes no sense at all. It's a convenient excuse to paint Judas as the "bad guy" instead of placing part of the blame on the Jesus character.
Besides, if the Jesus character KNEW that Judas had been stealing for years, why....why allow him to remain in that position to be tempted over and over again? It makes no sense at all.

Since when did being rich become the result of greed? Petty theives don't become rich because of greed. You are right: greed makes no sense at all. It only results in one's own destruction.
Obviously, the choice of Judas was not a mistake but for other purposes not specified to us. You have merely drawn a conclusion.

Based on the following verses is why it makes no sense that Judas would forsake his promised position: Luke 22:29-30. And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Matthew 19:27-28. Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So knowing all of this, why would Judas forsake being ruler over thousands for a few pieces of silver? Again, it makes no sense.

You would actually be right about this except for one thing: Judas did not meet the qualifications because of his lifestyle and lack of repentance.

Both prophecies are fictional. Here's why: Matthew 27:9-10 claims that this is done to fulfill a prophecy of Jeremiah:

Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled, saying, "And they took the thirty pieces of silver for the price of the one whose price had been set by the sons of Israel; and they gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me."
The problem here is that the quoted verse appears nowhere in the book of Jeremiah. There is a verse which is quite similar in the book of Zechariah, but there the prophet Zechariah is speaking about himself and no betrayal is involved.

As you should clearly be able to see, the New Testament writers concocted this prophecy in order to make it seem as if the prophecy referred to Judas betraying the Jesus character. These verses have nothing whatsover to do with Judas and the Jesus character.
This alone disqualifies the writers of John because they outright fabricated a prophecy. There you have it.
...
As has been shown above, the Old Testament verses had nothing to do with Judas and the Jesus character, so you'll have to find other verses to substantiate the writings in the New Testament.

Once again, you err because you do no know Judaism and it's recognition of the Book of the Prophets at the time of Matthew's writing. Consequently, you likely do not consider his audience in context. You could gain something here by doing some RESEARCH on your own so you know WHY this is recorded this way. I will look past your ignorance until your research is done. Don't trust me nor a rabbi. Do it yourself.

So, why are you believing anything this rabbi says if he doesn't even know the basics of New Testament prophecy? It's like you're picking and choosing which information to keep, just as long as it goes along with your theory.
I say both of you are wrong. There's no such thing as a messiah in the first place and there's no such thing as a first or second coming.

Prophecies of Messiah are Old Testament prophecies. Since those are what what rabbi's study, it makes perfect sense to ask them; they are certified experts. The fact that you think they are New Testament prophecies is quite telling.
Furthermore, there are hundreds of thousand of questions that rabbis can answer about Jewish tradition that are not elements of Scripture but are based on Scripture. You say that I and the rabbis are wrong on this matter, but you have nothing to rebut Scripture nor Jewish tradition. Somehow you have become an authority on the matter without any investigation at all. You are amazing.

So, why did John lie and state that NO man has seen god at any time? Can you not see the obvious biblical contradictions in the above verses you posted? If you can't then you need to do more studying.
It truly amazes me how simple language and sentences from the bible can confuse the biblically subjective mind of an educated person who refuses to see obvious contradictions for fear of having to admit that they're present in the bible.

It does not amaze me at all that you miss the obvious. You walked right past John 1:14-17 and fail to understand the context of John 1:18. You are educated but not a good student of the Bible ... and you cannot be that student without being regenerated.

Again this is one of your slight of hand attempts to evade the actual statement/question I posted. Why didn't the bible mention microbes as being the major cause of human diseases? It's because the biblical writers were totally ignorant of such knowledge.

I have answered this in at least 3 other threads plus this one.

Again, you're attempting to evade. You clearly admitted that you only have faith. I admitted that I'd rather have scientific evidence with proven facts to back up that evidence rather than have faith alone.
The bible is what you base your faith on, but you ignore the many errors, historical blunders, false statements and unfulfulled prophecies scattered throughout the book.
That's called blind faith and in many parts of science, it's writings would be ruled as unreliable.
If you'd objectively look at what I'm saying, you'd easily understand why I'm not keen on solely standing on faith alone.
...
You say that my deception has blinded me? I'm not the one whose solely depending on a book that's full of errors, written hundreds of years ago by UNKNOWN men who believed that evil spirits were the cause of diseases. LOL!!
Now THAT'S real deception if I ever saw it and you know it.

Once again you have concluded what I have and your conclusion is again wrong. I do have faith, but not faith alone ... but you already knew that.
Unknown men? Unknown to whom? Surely they were known to Greeks, Romans, and their kinsmen in the neighboring countries of the Middle East.

Again, more evasion. I'll ask again, if satan didn't create killer microbes, whose responsible for creating killer bacteria and virusses? Hopefully you'll answer it this time.

Read this slowly: Satan has not power to create anything, including killer microbes. Killer anything's in the Earth are the result of sin, presented by Satan and introduced to the Earth realm through Adam. We have discussed this repeatedly.

 

[JayRob]

Scripture does not tell us why. We can draw a lot of conclusions on our own, but that is as close as we can get.

The fact of the matter is Judas was used. It's quite obvious that you don't and won't admit this for fear of incriminating your lord and savior. That's your prerogative though, but the former is undeniable.

Judas had the same free will as Adam, JayRob, and DAContinent and faced the consequences of his own decisions ... just like Adam, JayRob, and DAContinent. Don't let your stubbornness overlook that.

The Jesus character also had the same free will to inform Judas that he was being used as a tool for the primary purpose of fulfilling a prophecy. Not notifying Judas was clearly deceptive and a flat out betrayal of the person he called his friend. Don't let your stubbornness overlook that.

Since you did not willingly answer this question as you normally do, I will assume that you simply missed it ... twice. So, I will give you a third try at it.

...What, then, was different about the Gethsemane situation?​

For the third time, why don't you tell me what the difference was regarding the Gethsemane situation.

Since when did being rich become the result of greed? Petty theives don't become rich because of greed. You are right: greed makes no sense at all. It only results in one's own destruction.
Obviously, the choice of Judas was not a mistake but for other purposes not specified to us. You have merely drawn a conclusion.

If Jesus was all-knowing and knew Judas' character, why did he appoint him as treasurer in the first place and place that temptation before him? If Judas was his friend, why would he place him in this predicament?

This greed accusation continues to make no sense. Perhaps this is why it's not made known by the writers. It's a made-up story that's placed in the New Testament to take part of the blame off the Jesus character for intentionally allowing Judas to be deceived for months and months without telling him the truth of what he was getting involved in.
It's unfortunate that you're not willing to be frank and at least admit that much.

You would actually be right about this except for one thing: Judas did not meet the qualifications because of his lifestyle and lack of repentance.

It's obvious that Judas had met the qualifications or why would the Jesus character have made those comments in the first place? It simply stated that the twelve would be rulers in a kingdom. This prophecy never came to pass, so somebody lied.

Once again, you err because you do no know Judaism and it's recognition of the Book of the Prophets at the time of Matthew's writing. Consequently, you likely do not consider his audience in context. You could gain something here by doing some RESEARCH on your own so you know WHY this is recorded this way. I will look past your ignorance until your research is done. Don't trust me nor a rabbi. Do it yourself.

I may not know simple Judaism, but I can read simple English.
Show were Matthew 27:9-10 has any correlation to the book of Jeremiah as is mentioned by Matthew.
If you can't, then this disqualifies the writer of Matthew as having been inspired by an all-knowing god. It also would tell me that you need to familiarize yourself with those same verses instead of encouraging me to do so.
The facts are the facts. The contents of Matthew 27:9-10 has nothing to do with the book of Jeremiah.

Prophecies of Messiah are Old Testament prophecies. Since those are what what rabbi's study, it makes perfect sense to ask them; they are certified experts. The fact that you think they are New Testament prophecies is quite telling.
Furthermore, there are hundreds of thousand of questions that rabbis can answer about Jewish tradition that are not elements of Scripture but are based on Scripture. You say that I and the rabbis are wrong on this matter, but you have nothing to rebut Scripture nor Jewish tradition. Somehow you have become an authority on the matter without any investigation at all. You are amazing.

So you're putting your belief in the words of rabbi's who don't even believe in the New Testament? Now THAT'S telling.
You proclaim them as being "certified experts" eventhough most of them deny your lord and savior, Jesus Christ? WOW!! Nevermind the fact that most rabbis only count the Jesus character as a mere prophet, yet deny him as god. Nevermind any of that, you still proclaim them as "certified experts"? That deserves another "wow"!!

If you'd ask the average rabbi, they'd clearly deny that the New Testament has any validity in the first place, but here you are, calling them "experts".

It does not amaze me at all that you miss the obvious. You walked right past John 1:14-17 and fail to understand the context of John 1:18. You are educated but not a good student of the Bible ... and you cannot be that student without being regenerated.

Dacon, you can try and explain away simple verses as long as you please, but that's not enough. You'd have to explain away the English language which is not so easy.

Gen 32:30 states, "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." However, John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..."
Both statements cannot be true. John 1:18 clearly stated that NO man hath seen god at any time. What part about this am I misinterpreting? I humbly invite you to show me that the phrase, "no man" doesn't mean "no man".

I have answered this in at least 3 other threads plus this one.

No you haven't. You merely stated that it wasn't mentioned, but you never mentioned WHY it wasn't mentioned and why biblical authors lied and made claim that evil spirits cause diseases. Up to this point, you've offered not a shred of scientific evidence verifying that evil spirits are the cause of killer bacteria and viruses.

Once again you have concluded what I have and your conclusion is again wrong. I do have faith, but not faith alone ... but you already knew that.

So now you admit that you don't have faith alone? No, I didn't know that because you didn't say this a couple of posts ago. I applaud you for not depending on faith alone, because that would be quite foolish.

Unknown men? Unknown to whom? Surely they were known to Greeks, Romans, and their kinsmen in the neighboring countries of the Middle East.

The overwhelming majority of biblically named men have no valid history nor extrabiblical verification. Why you posted that these men were actually known by Greeks and Romans is laughable.
Outside the bible, nobody knows the days they were born nor the dates most of them died. Do you? These men are no more than fictional characters for the most part.

Read this slowly: Satan has not power to create anything, including killer microbes. Killer anything's in the Earth are the result of sin, presented by Satan and introduced to the Earth realm through Adam. We have discussed this repeatedly.

So, sin created killer bacteria and viruses? This is an easy copout that's void of actual verification and equal to fiction.
If satan didn't create killer bacteria and viruses, then it's quite obvious that your biblical god had to do it.
Your reluctance to admit that your biblical god is the creator of such is quite obvious and quite deceptive indeed. It also shows the lengths one would go in denying that his god can do any wrong eventhough this same god admits to being the creator of everything that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[dacontinent]

The fact of the matter is Judas was used. It's quite obvious that you don't and won't admit this for fear of incriminating your lord and savior. That's your prerogative though, but the former is undeniable.
...
The Jesus character also had the same free will to inform Judas that he was being used as a tool for the primary purpose of fulfilling a prophecy. Not notifying Judas was clearly deceptive and a flat out betrayal of the person he called his friend. Don't let your stubbornness overlook that.

Incriminate Jesus??!! :lmao: The evidence has been in the record of the Scriptures for 2000 years. JayRob has a look and there is suddenly incrimination. You think a bit too highly. But, let's take a look at this.

Every Hebrew male child is taught the Scriptures. So, Judas would know of the prophecy of Messiah and of his betrayal. Judas is then hand-picked by the Messiah, walked with Him for 3+ years with full knowledge of the Scriptures and evidence of Jesus' fulfillment as Messiah. Judas was well aware that Jesus was Messiah.

For the third time, why don't you tell me what the difference was regarding the Gethsemane situation.

I asked you the question.

If Jesus was all-knowing and knew Judas' character, why did he appoint him as treasurer in the first place and place that temptation before him? If Judas was his friend, why would he place him in this predicament?

It is no different for you and me. You are bent on giving Judas an out for making his own decision. Man-up.

This greed accusation continues to make no sense. Perhaps this is why it's not made known by the writers. It's a made-up story that's placed in the New Testament to take part of the blame off the Jesus character for intentionally allowing Judas to be deceived for months and months without telling him the truth of what he was getting involved in.
It's unfortunate that you're not willing to be frank and at least admit that much.

It is the writers who make us aware of Judas' greed. Perhaps you just need to read the text.

It's obvious that Judas had met the qualifications or why would the Jesus character have made those comments in the first place? It simply stated that the twelve would be rulers in a kingdom. This prophecy never came to pass, so somebody lied.

First of all, Jesus made no enumeration to the group present.

Second,

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world : if my kingdom were of this world , then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
​

Note that Judas had left the scene by this time.

Third, when Jesus does mention those ruling in His Kingdom, the enumeration is 24 and not 12.

I may not know simple Judaism, but I can read simple English.
Show were Matthew 27:9-10 has any correlation to the book of Jeremiah as is mentioned by Matthew.
If you can't, then this disqualifies the writer of Matthew as having been inspired by an all-knowing god. It also would tell me that you need to familiarize yourself with those same verses instead of encouraging me to do so.
The facts are the facts. The contents of Matthew 27:9-10 has nothing to do with the book of Jeremiah.

Your ignorance does not serve you well. The text was not rendered in English, it was rendered in Aramaic. The target audience is Hebrew. In order to understand what Matthew wrote in its context one has to get inside the Hebrew culture. Had you chosen to do that, you would know that at the time of Matthew's writing the OT books of prophecy were considered as 1 book, something which the English translators did not consider. Study does help.

So you're putting your belief in the words of rabbi's who don't even believe in the New Testament? Now THAT'S telling.
You proclaim them as being "certified experts" eventhough most of them deny your lord and savior, Jesus Christ? WOW!! Nevermind the fact that most rabbis only count the Jesus character as a mere prophet, yet deny him as god. Nevermind any of that, you still proclaim them as "certified experts"? That deserves another "wow"!!
...
If you'd ask the average rabbi, they'd clearly deny that the New Testament has any validity in the first place, but here you are, calling them "experts".

I didn't ask the rabbi's about anything in the NT. I ask them about what they know about: OT Scripture and Jewish tradition. WOW! Do you fear asking experts for their expertise even when there are other aspects of their lives that don't line up with what you believe or understand? I trust you are a bar certified attorney, a certified public accountant, and a board-certified physician for starters.

Dacon, you can try and explain away simple verses as long as you please, but that's not enough. You'd have to explain away the English language which is not so easy.

Gen 32:30 states, "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." However, John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..."
Both statements cannot be true. John 1:18 clearly stated that NO man hath seen god at any time. What part about this am I misinterpreting? I humbly invite you to show me that the phrase, "no man" doesn't mean "no man".

You are misinterpreting who God is. Why? Because you don't believe.

No you haven't. You merely stated that it wasn't mentioned, but you never mentioned WHY it wasn't mentioned and why biblical authors lied and made claim that evil spirits cause diseases. Up to this point, you've offered not a shred of scientific evidence verifying that evil spirits are the cause of killer bacteria and viruses.
...
So, sin created killer bacteria and viruses? This is an easy copout that's void of actual verification and equal to fiction.
If satan didn't create killer bacteria and viruses, then it's quite obvious that your biblical god had to do it.
Your reluctance to admit that your biblical god is the creator of such is quite obvious and quite deceptive indeed. It also shows the lengths one would go in denying that his god can do any wrong eventhough this same god admits to being the creator of everything that creepeth upon the earth.

I have not and will not ever offer any scientific evidence that evil spirits cause killer bacteria and viruses. The historical record is that death did not exist in the earth before Adam sinned. I will stick with the faith book. If you don't want to understand the effects of sin on the human experience, that is your choice.

So now you admit that you don't have faith alone? No, I didn't know that because you didn't say this a couple of posts ago. I applaud you for not depending on faith alone, because that would be quite foolish.

Christianity has never been on faith alone. I just wonder why you might have assumed something like that.

The overwhelming majority of biblically named men have no valid history nor extrabiblical verification. Why you posted that these men were actually known by Greeks and Romans is laughable.
Outside the bible, nobody knows the days they were born nor the dates most of them died. Do you? These men are no more than fictional characters for the most part.

Enjoy your laugh. It is good for you. I guess that you'd better throw out almost all of the historians prior to the reformation because we can't validate the dates of their births and deaths.

 

[dacontinent]

Who was the Jesus character referring to when he stated that "it would've been better if he had never been born?"

Who prophesied that Judas would be the one to betray him? It's the same exact principle that was used to harden the heart and mind of the Egyptian pharoah.

The quote is "it would've been better for him if he had never been born?"

No one prophecied that Judas would be the one to betray Him. Nobody. So, let's look at the passage.

Matt 26:21-25
21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

The text tells us that Judas stepped into his own mess.

 

[JayRob]

Incriminate Jesus??!! The evidence has been in the record of the Scriptures for 2000 years. JayRob has a look and there is suddenly incrimination. You think a bit too highly. But, let's take a look at this.

Every Hebrew male child is taught the Scriptures. So, Judas would know of the prophecy of Messiah and of his betrayal. Judas is then hand-picked by the Messiah, walked with Him for 3+ years with full knowledge of the Scriptures and evidence of Jesus' fulfillment as Messiah. Judas was well aware that Jesus was Messiah.

Where are the Old Testament verses specifically showing that the messiah would be betrayed? I showed earlier that the verses that are said by some to prophesy the messiah's betrayal had absolutely nothing to do with a betrayal of Jesus.
Most Jews don't believe that the messiah has come and they certainly don't believe that Jesus was the messiah, so how are most Hebrew males being taught that the messiah (Jesus) would be betrayed via Old Testament scriptures?

I asked you the question.

I asked you the question too. You seem to have an answer but you seem to be afraid to post it.

It is no different for you and me. You are bent on giving Judas an out for making his own decision. Man-up.

Again, you avoid directly answering a simple question for fear of having to incriminate the Jesus character.
Why would an all-loving and all-knowing god place an obvious temptation in front of the person he claims to be his friend, while all the time knowing that he has a problem with stealing?
That's akin to putting an alcoholic over the liquor store knowing all the time he was still drinking.

Perhaps it's you who needs to man-up and admit that the Jesus person has to share some of the blame as well. He did enable Judas over and over by putting him over the treasury while all the time knowing he was a thief.

It is the writers who make us aware of Judas' greed. Perhaps you just need to read the text.

The writers also make no sense in trying to totally blame Judas while letting the Jesus character off scott free. If Jesus had willingly turned himself over to the Jews of his own volition, there would've been no need for Judas to be involved.

First of all, Jesus made no enumeration to the group present.
Second,

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world : if my kingdom were of this world , then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
​

Note that Judas had left the scene by this time.

Third, when Jesus does mention those ruling in His Kingdom, the enumeration is 24 and not 12.

The verse you mentioned has nothing to do with the original promise made by the Jesus character to EACH of the twelve disciples.

In the following verses, Jesus promises rulership by the disciples over the twelve tribes of Israel. He made this statement long before the statement made in John.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

So again I ask, why would Judas forsake all of these riches promised to him for a mere 30 pieces of silver? This is why the greed accusations made towards him make no sense at all. He was to be given riches beyond his dreams, but he gave it all up for 30 pieces of silver? Sounds like fiction to me.

Your ignorance does not serve you well. The text was not rendered in English, it was rendered in Aramaic. The target audience is Hebrew. In order to understand what Matthew wrote in its context one has to get inside the Hebrew culture. Had you chosen to do that, you would know that at the time of Matthew's writing the OT books of prophecy were considered as 1 book, something which the English translators did not consider. Study does help.

First of all, the author of Matthew clearly stated that it was spoken by Jeremiah, not another prophet. He specifically said Jeremiah. This is a flat out lie. Jeremiah made no such quote. This makes the writer of Matthew a fraud.

Second, where was this so-called one book ever solely called Jeremiah? That's it, it wasn't.
Again you are mistaken, as is the writer of Matthew who erred in claiming that Jeremiah made a quote when in reality he didn't.

Thirdly, the above biblical error in Zechariah have nothing to do with any messiah. Here are the verses in Zech 11:12-13: And I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. Then the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord.

When one reads the entire chapter and grasp the story context, one would easily see that this is Zechariah speaking of his own experience rather than a messianic prophecy.

I didn't ask the rabbi's about anything in the NT. I ask them about what they know about: OT Scripture and Jewish tradition. WOW! Do you fear asking experts for their expertise even when there are other aspects of their lives that don't line up with what you believe or understand? I trust you are a bar certified attorney, a certified public accountant, and a board-certified physician for starters.

If these same rabbi's consider Zech 11:12-13 to be prophecies about a messiah, they are mistaken just as you are.
Jewish tradition, in this case is irrelevant.

You are misinterpreting who God is. Why? Because you don't believe.

So you're saying that there are multiple gods? Tell me who this god is who can be seen, yet also claimed that no man hath seen him.
Jesus clearly stated that "no man hath seen god". How clear can this be? There's clear contradiction to the point that even you have a hard time interpreting and explaining the aforementioned contradictory verses so much that you didn't even try to.

I have not and will not ever offer any scientific evidence that evil spirits cause killer bacteria and viruses.

It's not that you will not offer any scientific evidence, it's quite obvious that you "can't".

The historical record is that death did not exist in the earth before Adam sinned. I will stick with the faith book. If you don't want to understand the effects of sin on the human experience, that is your choice.

Again you can't present definitive proof of death not existing before Adam. All you have is another persons word. That's called hearsay. Some call it faith, but it's sure not evidence.

Christianity has never been on faith alone. I just wonder why you might have assumed something like that.

Sorry, I can't take your word on this. Major parts of Christianity is no more backed up by irrefutable evidence than is Islam or Judaism.

Enjoy your laugh. It is good for you. I guess that you'd better throw out almost all of the historians prior to the reformation because we can't validate the dates of their births and deaths.

Your statement "that most biblical men were known by Greeks and Romans" brought on the laugh.
I simply stated that no one knows the birth dates of most of the biblical writers nor do they know much about their families and/or the day they died. You've posted nothing of credibility to refute this.

As far as historians of the reformation are concerned, I don't recall any of them claiming to have walked and talked with the creator of the universe nor have they claimed to have seen a man raise people from the dead, therefore incredible evidence isn't need.
Incredible feats require incredible evidence. This incredible evidence is sorely lacking in the bible.

 

[JayRob]

The quote is "it would've been better for him if he had never been born?"

No one prophecied that Judas would be the one to betray Him. Nobody. So, let's look at the passage.

Matt 26:21-25
21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.

The text tells us that Judas stepped into his own mess.

The Jesus character prophesied that Judas would betray him. Why didn't the Jesus character save Judas from doing this by voluntarily turning himself over to the Jews? That would've been the epitome of giving yourself up for your friends.
The Jesus character didn't do this. Instead, he let Judas fall right into the trap set for him long before he ever knew it.

 

[dacontinent]

The Jesus character prophesied that Judas would betray him. Why didn't the Jesus character save Judas from doing this by voluntarily turning himself over to the Jews? That would've been the epitome of giving yourself up for your friends.
The Jesus character didn't do this. Instead, he let Judas fall right into the trap set for him long before he ever knew it.

You simply live in denial.

 

[dacontinent]

Where are the Old Testament verses specifically showing that the messiah would be betrayed? I showed earlier that the verses that are said by some to prophesy the messiah's betrayal had absolutely nothing to do with a betrayal of Jesus.
Most Jews don't believe that the messiah has come and they certainly don't believe that Jesus was the messiah, so how are most Hebrew males being taught that the messiah (Jesus) would be betrayed via Old Testament scriptures?

...by the very passages that you have already rejected.

I asked you the question too. You seem to have an answer but you seem to be afraid to post it.

Since you said this...

I've willingly answered every question asked as I normally do, so try again. I'm not in the business of evading questions by asking generalized questions which have multiple answers.

...I am going to give you another chance to preserve your integrity.

Again, you avoid directly answering a simple question for fear of having to incriminate the Jesus character.
Why would an all-loving and all-knowing god place an obvious temptation in front of the person he claims to be his friend, while all the time knowing that he has a problem with stealing?
That's akin to putting an alcoholic over the liquor store knowing all the time he was still drinking.

Again, the same thing happens with you and me. We are tempted because of sin, not because of some act of God.

Perhaps it's you who needs to man-up and admit that the Jesus person has to share some of the blame as well. He did enable Judas over and over by putting him over the treasury while all the time knowing he was a thief.

Will you next blame God for your sin?

The writers also make no sense in trying to totally blame Judas while letting the Jesus character off scott free. If Jesus had willingly turned himself over to the Jews of his own volition, there would've been no need for Judas to be involved.

You are the only one casting blame. Judas did not have to be involved. He could have simply walked away.

The verse you mentioned has nothing to do with the original promise made by the Jesus character to EACH of the twelve disciples.

In the following verses, Jesus promises rulership by the disciples over the twelve tribes of Israel. He made this statement long before the statement made in John.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

So again I ask, why would Judas forsake all of these riches promised to him for a mere 30 pieces of silver? This is why the greed accusations made towards him make no sense at all. He was to be given riches beyond his dreams, but he gave it all up for 30 pieces of silver? Sounds like fiction to me.

You seem to not understand that 99% of the promises in Scripture are CONDITIONAL. Judas does not meet the condition of being a follower. He opts out by hanging himself. For some reason you cannot seem to grasp that. Judas' decision make no sense but our choice of sin never does. We sit back in hindsight and say "I would never have done that" or something of that nature...but we are on this side of the story.

First of all, the author of Matthew clearly stated that it was spoken by Jeremiah, not another prophet. He specifically said Jeremiah. This is a flat out lie. Jeremiah made no such quote. This makes the writer of Matthew a fraud.

Second, where was this so-called one book ever solely called Jeremiah? That's it, it wasn't.
Again you are mistaken, as is the writer of Matthew who erred in claiming that Jeremiah made a quote when in reality he didn't.

Thirdly, the above biblical error in Zechariah have nothing to do with any messiah. Here are the verses in Zech 11:12-13: And I said to them, "If it is good in your sight, give me my wages; but if not, never mind!" So they weighed out thirty shekels of silver as my wages. Then the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter, that magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty shekels of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the Lord.

When one reads the entire chapter and grasp the story context, one would easily see that this is Zechariah speaking of his own experience rather than a messianic prophecy.

This simply shows how much you HAVE NOT studied the Scriptures, the culture, the customs of the time, the traditions, the era, and the people. It took me years of digging, reading, and asking questions to get this. You are trying to hammer it out in banter in an online forum. If you want to know, then put in the time and effort to study for yourself. Please don't take my word for it.

If these same rabbi's consider Zech 11:12-13 to be prophecies about a messiah, they are mistaken just as you are.
Jewish tradition, in this case is irrelevant.

The whole point was about Jewish tradition and what Jewish boys are taught and why. It is completely relevant.

So you're saying that there are multiple gods? Tell me who this god is who can be seen, yet also claimed that no man hath seen him.
Jesus clearly stated that "no man hath seen god". How clear can this be? There's clear contradiction to the point that even you have a hard time interpreting and explaining the aforementioned contradictory verses so much that you didn't even try to.

I have no trouble interpreting it at all. The Scriptures are clear. Read them and believe.

It's not that you will not offer any scientific evidence, it's quite obvious that you "can't".
...
Again you can't present definitive proof of death not existing before Adam. All you have is another persons word. That's called hearsay. Some call it faith, but it's sure not evidence.

I don't have a need to. When you have scientific evidence that death occurred before Adam or that sin did not cause killer bacteria occuring in nature then you can present it. I will concede to you.

Sorry, I can't take your word on this. Major parts of Christianity is no more backed up by irrefutable evidence than is Islam or Judaism.

What happens or not with Judaism or Islam has nothing to do with the merits of Christianity. Each tub has to sit on its own bottom. Besides, you don't have to take my word for it. Just read the Bible. It tells us that there is more to Christianity than faith.

Your statement "that most biblical men were known by Greeks and Romans" brought on the laugh.
I simply stated that no one knows the birth dates of most of the biblical writers nor do they know much about their families and/or the day they died. You've posted nothing of credibility to refute this.

And my point is that the great Greek and Roman writers did find enough credibility in them to write about them.

As far as historians of the reformation are concerned, I don't recall any of them claiming to have walked and talked with the creator of the universe nor have they claimed to have seen a man raise people from the dead, therefore incredible evidence isn't need.
Incredible feats require incredible evidence. This incredible evidence is sorely lacking in the bible.

Then go back and study the experiences of those church patriarchs that you so vehemently ridicule. Don't take my word for it. Search it out. STUDY. Put some of your own effort into it. Here is a tip: Start with Getting to Know the Church Fathers: An Evangelical Introduction by Dr. Bryan Liftin. It was published about 4-5 years ago and is probably the newest work of its kind on the subject. I actually heard him on radio last week.

 

[JayRob]

You simply live in denial.

So by default, you admit that the Jesus character wasn't willing to give himself up for his friend Judas. Thanks for your admittance.

 

[JayRob]

...by the very passages that you have already rejected.

I clearly showed that the passages you mentioned weren't referring to the Jesus character and his betrayal. Those verses are totally taken out of context by you and whomever believes the same as you.

Since you said this...

​

...I am going to give you another chance to preserve your integrity.

My integrity is already set and stable. It's your integrity that's more in question due to the fact that on multiple occasions I've asked simple questions that received no direct answer, especially if those answers would've made the bible or your savior look bad.

Again, the same thing happens with you and me. We are tempted because of sin, not because of some act of God.

I'm not talking about you or me, I'm talking about Judas and the Jesus character.
It seems that at all costs, you continue to avoid criticizing the Jesus character regardless how dishonest it makes you look.
I asked the question, "why would an all-loving and all-knowing god place an obvious temptation in front of the person he claims to be his friend, while all the time knowing that he has a problem with stealing?
That's akin to putting an alcoholic over the liquor store knowing all the time he was still drinking."

You avoided directly answering a simple question. The Jesus character must share some of the blame as to enabling Judas to steal by placing him in the position of treasurer, where he is said to have stole.

Will you next blame God for your sin?

This isn't about me, it's about Judas and the Jesus character. Did the Jesus character enable Judas by giving him the position of treasurer, all the while knowing he was an alleged thief? Yes or no.

You are the only one casting blame. Judas did not have to be involved. He could have simply walked away.

How am I the only one casting blame when in your post, you solely lay blame on Judas?
Your overwhelming biased attitude on the side of the Jesus character can't even bring you ONCE lay any blame at the feet of the one who actually had more power to prevent Judas from becoming a betrayer than Judas himself. That person was the Jesus character.
He had the power to turn himself in. He had the power to warn Judas years in advance that satan would try and use him. He had the power to counsel Judas not to go through with the plan by revealing it to the other disciples who could've prevented it as well.
Fact of the matter is the Jesus character didn't want to stop Judas because it would've disqualified him as being the so-called messiah.

You seem to not understand that 99% of the promises in Scripture are CONDITIONAL. Judas does not meet the condition of being a follower. He opts out by hanging himself. For some reason you cannot seem to grasp that. Judas' decision make no sense but our choice of sin never does. We sit back in hindsight and say "I would never have done that" or something of that nature...but we are on this side of the story.

If the Jesus character KNEW years in advance that Judas would betray him, why did he still make the promise regarding the twelve, with Judas present? If he knew years in advance that one of them wouldn't be there to partake of the riches, why would he make such a deceptive statement?
Again, you pose no valid reason why Judas would've forsaken rulership and riches for thirty pieces of silver when he could've borrowed that much from the treasury. LOL!!

This simply shows how much you HAVE NOT studied the Scriptures, the culture, the customs of the time, the traditions, the era, and the people. It took me years of digging, reading, and asking questions to get this. You are trying to hammer it out in banter in an online forum. If you want to know, then put in the time and effort to study for yourself. Please don't take my word for it.

There you go again, totally evading the three valid points I made earlier. Not one time did you even try and rebut one of those points. Each point has validity, to the point where you can't refute them. Instead, you resort to talking about studying scripture which I've done for years and years.

First you ignore point one where the author of Matthew "specifically" stated that Jeremiah made the prophesy. That wasn't true. Jeremiah never specifically made such a prophecy.
Secondly, you posted no evidence that a book listing the writings of multiple prophets was solely called Jeremiah. You didn't even try and refute this. Where's the evidence of this book?
Thirdly, you didn't address the context of the verses listed in Zechariah, which clearly indicate that those same verses were referring to himself, not any messiah.
Please address each of the aforementioned points individually with supporting evidence if you don't mind. Thanks in advance.

The whole point was about Jewish tradition and what Jewish boys are taught and why. It is completely relevant.

If those Jewish traditions have nothing to do with the verses in Zechariah and there's no evidence to support those traditions, they are very much irrelevant.

I have no trouble interpreting it at all. The Scriptures are clear. Read them and believe.

Your tactic is to totally evade directly answering the question with valid points, especially if it goes against your beliefs. That's called being biased.
I simply asked you to show me a god who stated that "no man hath seen god at any time", then inspire a man to say, "I have seen god". You've yet to explain how both verses can be true.

I don't have a need to. When you have scientific evidence that death occurred before Adam or that sin did not cause killer bacteria occuring in nature then you can present it. I will concede to you.

I don't need evidence and why? Because I'm not the one making the claim that Adam was the cause of humans dying or that sin caused killer bacteria to occur.
It's you who need to show the evidence to support your claim.
I'll ask again, please present extra-biblical evidence to support your two theories.

What happens or not with Judaism or Islam has nothing to do with the merits of Christianity. Each tub has to sit on its own bottom. Besides, you don't have to take my word for it. Just read the Bible. It tells us that there is more to Christianity than faith.

First of all, Christianity is based off of Judaism, so without it, Christianity wouldn't and couldn't exist. Now show me how that's not true.
As far as the bible is concerned, some of the writings are valid, but the overwhelming majority of it is pure fiction, written by ancient and ignorant men who had no more knowledge than those men who wrote about Isis, Horus, Dionysius and Thor.

And my point is that the great Greek and Roman writers did find enough credibility in them to write about them.

Again, you're mistaken. The Greeks and Romans simply assimilated Christianity into their sun god religions to add converts. The religion then started to become popular ONLY after adding doctrines from pagan religions.

Then go back and study the experiences of those church patriarchs that you so vehemently ridicule. Don't take my word for it. Search it out. STUDY. Put some of your own effort into it. Here is a tip: Start with Getting to Know the Church Fathers: An Evangelical Introduction by Dr. Bryan Liftin. It was published about 4-5 years ago and is probably the newest work of its kind on the subject. I actually heard him on radio last week.

So you're saying that Jesus came back in physical form to this earth and walked with men of the reformation period? Yeah, right. LOL!!
Are you claiming that men of the reformation raised folks from the dead, eventhough they couldn't stop the Bubonic Plague and other diseases that killed off millions? Yeah, right.

Anybody can claim that they raised somebody from the dead. This includes preachers from Africa, which were found to be liars. You do remember that article you posted months ago don't you, the same article that was found to be fraudulent?
Like I stated earlier, major claims absolutely require major evidence, not hearsay.

 

[dacontinent]

So by default, you admit that the Jesus character wasn't willing to give himself up for his friend Judas. Thanks for your admittance.

I already presented the antithesis of this. Moving on.

 

[dacontinent]

I clearly showed that the passages you mentioned weren't referring to the Jesus character and his betrayal. Those verses are totally taken out of context by you and whomever believes the same as you.

This is the last time I am going to say this is in this thread: you clearly showed what you are currently incapable of understanding.

My integrity is already set and stable. It's your integrity that's more in question due to the fact that on multiple occasions I've asked simple questions that received no direct answer, especially if those answers would've made the bible or your savior look bad.

In other words, you are not going to answer the question ... in direct contradiction of your earlier statement in this thread.

I'm not talking about you or me, I'm talking about Judas and the Jesus character.
It seems that at all costs, you continue to avoid criticizing the Jesus character regardless how dishonest it makes you look.
I asked the question, "why would an all-loving and all-knowing god place an obvious temptation in front of the person he claims to be his friend, while all the time knowing that he has a problem with stealing?
That's akin to putting an alcoholic over the liquor store knowing all the time he was still drinking."

You avoided directly answering a simple question. The Jesus character must share some of the blame as to enabling Judas to
steal by placing him in the position of treasurer, where he is said to have stole.

What saddens me is that you don't know that you are talkin about you and me. But, I will refrain from going down that rabbit trail.

Your reasoning I like that of blaming the parent when the unlicensed kid takes the spare keys to the car for a driving escapade that results in him crashing into and killing someone. You would blame the parent for leaving the spare keys at home instead of simply observing that the kid made a bad decision. Well, my kids never drove my vehicles without my authorization. Yes, I have log books to support it. I never hid my keys and they knew not to try it. Judas was in the same position with the treasury. Since the Scripture does not record why Jesus did it, I am going to lean on Him living by the principle that walking with Messiah should have been enough to convince anyone in the camp to obey Him.

This isn't about me, it's about Judas and the Jesus character. Did the Jesus character enable Judas by giving him the position of treasurer, all the while knowing he was an alleged thief? Yes or no.

No.

How am I the only one casting blame when in your post, you solely lay blame on Judas?
Your overwhelming biased attitude on the side of the Jesus character can't even bring you ONCE lay any blame at the feet of the one who actually had more power to prevent Judas from becoming a betrayer than Judas himself. That person was the Jesus character.
He had the power to turn himself in. He had the power to warn Judas years in advance that satan would try and use him. He had the power to counsel Judas not to go through with the plan by revealing it to the other disciples who could've prevented it as well.

He exposed Judas in front of the remaining eleven. There is no record of anyone going after Judas. Your conclusion is already faulty. And just what would he turn Himself in for? With what had he been charged? Nothing.

Fact of the matter is the Jesus character didn't want to stop Judas because it would've disqualified him as being the so-called messiah.

So, you contend that if Judas had died and decayed a year earlier, then no one would have betrayed Jesus and that would have resulted in Him not being Messiah. Is that right? [I need Keyshawn Johnson for a "C'mon, Man" right here.]

If the Jesus character KNEW years in advance that Judas would betray him, why did he still make the promise regarding the twelve, with Judas present? If he knew years in advance that one of them wouldn't be there to partake of the riches, why would he make such a deceptive statement?
Again, you pose no valid reason why Judas would've forsaken rulership and riches for thirty pieces of silver when he could've borrowed that much from the treasury. LOL!!

Jesus makes promise of blessings on those who are obedient. That is consistent in all of scripture. Why you have a problem with that is beyond me.

In all of my dealings with and study of psychology of people who fit Judas' profile as a thief, none of them ever stole to get rich. Zero, Zilch. Nada. Stealing is like a drug: they just want more.

There you go again, totally evading the three valid points I made earlier. Not one time did you even try and rebut one of those points. Each point has validity, to the point where you can't refute them. Instead, you resort to talking about studying scripture which I've done for years and years.

Nothing to rebut. Apparently you can be a much better student than you have been.

First you ignore point one where the author of Matthew "specifically" stated that Jeremiah made the prophesy. That wasn't true. Jeremiah never specifically made such a prophecy.

I didn't ignore it. I tried to enlighten you to Jewish culture. Matthew's gospel was written to people of Jewish culture. So, if you are going to understand its nuances, then you must delve into the culture in order to capture the context. You've chosen to rely solely on King James / English.

Secondly, you posted no evidence that a book listing the writings of multiple prophets was solely called Jeremiah. You didn't even try and refute this. Where's the evidence of this book?

Right. I suggested that you should do what I did: concult a rabbi. Let him show you copies of Torah, Talmud, and The Prophets through the years. You might learn something.

Thirdly, you didn't address the context of the verses listed in Zechariah, which clearly indicate that those same verses were referring to himself, not any messiah.
...
If those Jewish traditions have nothing to do with the verses in Zechariah and there's no evidence to support those traditions, they are very much irrelevant.

No need. You refuse to understand Messianic parallel. Apparently you missed that coursework in your years of study.

Please address each of the aforementioned points individually with supporting evidence if you don't mind. Thanks in advance.

You are welcome.

Your tactic is to totally evade directly answering the question with valid points, especially if it goes against your beliefs. That's called being biased.
I simply asked you to show me a god who stated that "no man hath seen god at any time", then inspire a man to say, "I have seen god". You've yet to explain how both verses can be true.

I am biased, brainwashed, brandishing the badge and waving the flag. I appreciate your recognition.

I have answered your question by giving you several passages of scripture on the same statement. Surely one who has studied the scriptures for so many years could not have possibly missed something that was so obvious to the "ignorant and ancient".

I don't need evidence and why? Because I'm not the one making the claim that Adam was the cause of humans dying or that sin caused killer bacteria to occur.
It's you who need to show the evidence to support your claim.
I'll ask again, please present extra-biblical evidence to support your two theories.

You have claimed that killer bacteria released in the earth did not result from evil spirits. You have no scientific evidence to show that.

First of all, Christianity is based off of Judaism, so without it, Christianity wouldn't and couldn't exist. Now show me how that's not true.
As far as the bible is concerned, some of the writings are valid, but the overwhelming majority of it is pure fiction, written by ancient and ignorant men who had no more knowledge than those men who wrote about Isis, Horus, Dionysius and Thor.

Christ was a Jew ... who redeemed the whole world. Go figure.

Where is your empirical evidence of what those "ancient and ignorant" men knew relative to those who wrote about Isis, Horus, Dionysius, and Thor?

Again, you're mistaken. The Greeks and Romans simply assimilated Christianity into their sun god religions to add converts. The religion then started to become popular ONLY after adding doctrines from pagan religions.

So the Greeks and Romans converted Christians to their mythical pluralities? Bruh, you are awfully confused.

So you're saying that Jesus came back in physical form to this earth and walked with men of the reformation period? Yeah, right. LOL!!

Nope. Not at all.

Are you claiming that men of the reformation raised folks from the dead, eventhough they couldn't stop the Bubonic Plague and other diseases that killed off millions? Yeah, right.

What does history record? Did you bother to read about it?

Anybody can claim that they raised somebody from the dead. This includes preachers from Africa, which were found to be liars. You do remember that article you posted months ago don't you, the same article that was found to be fraudulent?
Like I stated earlier, major claims absolutely require major evidence, not hearsay.

All that is required is eyewitness testimony. We have that. :read:

 

[JayRob]

This is the last time I am going to say this is in this thread: you clearly showed what you are currently incapable of understanding.

Keep being in denial of easily understood verses. It's ironic that you can correctly explain band material content and context that agree with your theory, but once that concept goes contrary to your theory, you deny it regardless of the obvious.

In other words, you are not going to answer the question ... in direct contradiction of your earlier statement in this thread.

You asked the question, so you should have the answer. I'm sure you weren't intending on relying on my answer whether right or wrong.

What saddens me is that you don't know that you are talkin about you and me. But, I will refrain from going down that rabbit trail.

Your reasoning I like that of blaming the parent when the unlicensed kid takes the spare keys to the car for a driving escapade that results in him crashing into and killing someone. You would blame the parent for leaving the spare keys at home instead of simply observing that the kid made a bad decision. Well, my kids never drove my vehicles without my authorization. Yes, I have log books to support it. I never hid my keys and they knew not to try it. Judas was in the same position with the treasury. Since the Scripture does not record why Jesus did it, I am going to lean on Him living by the principle that walking with Messiah should have been enough to convince anyone in the camp to obey Him.

Again, no matter what, you refuse to place blame on the Jesus character. He's supposed to be all-knowing, yet he still placed Judas over money? That deserves a laugh.
As far as your children are concerned, if you knew your children habitually steals the keys to the car, you'd have the sense and compassion to at least hide the keys. I'll give you that much credit, but I dare not give credit to the Jesus character for enabling a proposed thief by giving him authority over the treasury.

No.

That's nonsense. That's like putting crack cocaine in front of an addict and expecting him not to take it. When it comes to logic and objectivity relative to the Jesus character, yours seem to vanish into thin air.

He exposed Judas in front of the remaining eleven. There is no record of anyone going after Judas. Your conclusion is already faulty. And just what would he turn Himself in for? With what had he been charged? Nothing.

The Jesus character exposed Judas after having known what would happen long in advance. He could've prevented this by counseling with Judas as soon as he knew Judas was scheduled to betray him, but he didn't. Instead, he publicly humiliated the man in front of his peers before going to him one on one and talking about the issue. There's no record that this ever occurred.
In addition, he could've told the disciples who then could have restrained Judas or talked him out of going to the Jews.
As far as turning himself in, the Jesus character could've performed this act of love as a friend to Judas in order to keep him from becoming a betrayer, but he didn't. It was all about himself and his prophecy coming to pass. To heck with Judas and his problems.

So, you contend that if Judas had died and decayed a year earlier, then no one would have betrayed Jesus and that would have resulted in Him not being Messiah. Is that right? [I need Keyshawn Johnson for a "C'mon, Man" right here.]

I contend that there were several ways the Jesus character could've saved Judas from himself, but he refused to do any of them.
He let satan enter his so-called friend, he enabled Judas in being a thief, he kept valuable information from Judas that could've saved him, he embarassed Judas in front of his friends, there's no evidence that Jesus ever tried to talk Judas out of turning him over to the Jews.....and all this for what? Just so his prophecy about a so-called messiah could be true.

Jesus makes promise of blessings on those who are obedient. That is consistent in all of scripture. Why you have a problem with that is beyond me.

This same Jesus who supposedly was the Old Testament god, also was responsible for killing innocent children, babies, women and men. This is consistent in scripture as well. Why you refuse to acknowledge this is beyond me.
This same Jesus also promises an eternal hell fire for ALL eternity for those who refuse to be obedient to laws he broke himself. LOL!!

In all of my dealings with and study of psychology of people who fit Judas' profile as a thief, none of them ever stole to get rich. Zero, Zilch. Nada. Stealing is like a drug: they just want more.

In all your dealings, have any of those same people been promised by Jesus in the physical flesh: eternal life, riches beyond their imagination and rulership over the earth? No.

Nothing to rebut. Apparently you can be a much better student than you have been.

There's plenty for you to rebut....that's if you could do so, but once again, you fall short.
You're intentionally choosing to evade the three valid points I made earlier. Not one time did you even try and rebut one of those points. Each point has validity which you have no logical answer for.

I didn't ignore it. I tried to enlighten you to Jewish culture. Matthew's gospel was written to people of Jewish culture. So, if you are going to understand its nuances, then you must delve into the culture in order to capture the context. You've chosen to rely solely on King James / English.

So, if Matthew was written for Jews, why has it been left for us who aren't Jews? LOL!! Again, your theory makes no sense. It's merely an excuse for you to avoid addressing valid points already made.
You claimed that there was a book called Jeremiah that comprised the writings of several prophets, but you've presented not a shred of evidence to support your theory. This speaks volumes. Where's this book?

Right. I suggested that you should do what I did: concult a rabbi. Let him show you copies of Torah, Talmud, and The Prophets through the years. You might learn something.

Well, you need to go back to that SAME rabbi who gave you this information and ask him to present to you this book you spoke about called Jeremiah. You may be willing to take the word of a rabbi, but I need more than just somebody's word or hearsay. Please present evidence of such a book.

No need. You refuse to understand Messianic parallel. Apparently you missed that coursework in your years of study.

Just admit that you don't have a rebuttal to the verses in Zechariah which have nothing to do with any messiah. Your inability to rebut is telling indeed. It tells me that you don't understand simple content in the bible OR that you're in denial.
In all actuality, I KNEW you wouldn't have a decent rebuttal before I even asked the question, but I thought I'd give you the honor of at least trying to give a decent rebuttal, however to no avail.

You are welcome.

Yeah, thanks for running from the request. I'm not at all surprised.

I am biased, brainwashed, brandishing the badge and waving the flag. I appreciate your recognition.

You're that way for a reason. When you can't answer simple questions about a book you claim to have knowledge of, your subjectivity really shows.

I have answered your question by giving you several passages of scripture on the same statement. Surely one who has studied the scriptures for so many years could not have possibly missed something that was so obvious to the "ignorant and ancient".

The few passages you did post were totally taken out of context, especially the verses listed in Zechariah.
Again you're evading by talking about something that has nothing to do with the questions posed of "how can one see god", eventhough the Jesus character claims that "no man hath seen god at ANY time"? You continue to avoid answering this simple question like the plague.

You have claimed that killer bacteria released in the earth did not result from evil spirits. You have no scientific evidence to show that.

Huh? What are you talking about? You made the claim that Adam's sin brought on death. You were the one claiming that diseases were caused by evil spirits.
Since you're making such claims, I challenge you to back them up with scientific evidence. The burden of proof is on the one making the affirmative claim which is you.
I simply stated that there's no evidence supporting the theory that killer bacteria are the result of evil spirits.
I KNOW you can't, but I'll at least be fair to you by asking like I've done in the past.

Christ was a Jew ... who redeemed the whole world. Go figure.

According to Judaism, the Jesus character didn't redeem anything and he was only a prophet....if that.
The authors of the bible clearly state that the church is built off the foundation of the prophets (mainly in the Old Testament) and apostles.
What passages did the apostles quote from? Where did they acquire their rituals, holy days, laws, commandments and statutes from? The Old Testatment, that's where. Like I said, without Judaism, there would be no Christianity.

Where is your empirical evidence of what those "ancient and ignorant" men knew relative to those who wrote about Isis, Horus, Dionysius, and Thor?

I've posted empirical evidence on multiple occasions showing how the biblical writers plagiarized the writings of other religions, then again you already know this. Besides, you don't really want to know any way. If you did, you'd have taken heed to previous posts I've made regarding this subject.

 

[dacontinent]

Keep being in denial of easily understood verses. It's ironic that you can correctly explain band material content and context that agree with your theory, but once that concept goes contrary to your theory, you deny it regardless of the obvious.
...
You asked the question, so you should have the answer. I'm sure you weren't intending on relying on my answer whether right or wrong.

You asked the question, so you should have the answer. I'm sure you weren't intending on relying on my answer whether right or wrong.

Of course I have an answer. I posed the question to have you present your answer. You haven't ... in direct contradiction to what you earlier claimed to do.

Again, no matter what, you refuse to place blame on the Jesus character. He's supposed to be all-knowing, yet he still placed Judas over money? That deserves a laugh.
As far as your children are concerned, if you knew your children habitually steals the keys to the car, you'd have the sense and compassion to at least hide the keys. I'll give you that much credit, but I dare not give credit to the Jesus character for enabling a proposed thief by giving him authority over the treasury.

To what would Jesus have betrayed Himself? He had claimed to be Messiah. That was not a secret. There had been other times that His enemies had sought to take His life and he had escaped. Of what was He charged?

That's nonsense. That's like putting crack cocaine in front of an addict and expecting him not to take it. When it comes to logic and objectivity relative to the Jesus character, yours seem to vanish into thin air.

I have done this repeatedly and come back to the room hours later to find the addict gone and the crack just as I left it. What is your experience in doing this?

The Jesus character exposed Judas after having known what would happen long in advance. He could've prevented this by counseling with Judas as soon as he knew Judas was scheduled to betray him, but he didn't. Instead, he publicly humiliated the man in front of his peers before going to him one on one and talking about the issue. There's no record that this ever occurred.
In addition, he could've told the disciples who then could have restrained Judas or talked him out of going to the Jews.
As far as turning himself in, the Jesus character could've performed this act of love as a friend to Judas in order to keep him from becoming a betrayer, but he didn't. It was all about himself and his prophecy coming to pass. To heck with Judas and his problems.

Judas had been taught the same thing about the betrayer from a child ... and did it anyway.

I contend that there were several ways the Jesus character could've saved Judas from himself, but he refused to do any of them.
He let satan enter his so-called friend, he enabled Judas in being a thief, he kept valuable information from Judas that could've saved him, he embarassed Judas in front of his friends, there's no evidence that Jesus ever tried to talk Judas out of turning him over to the Jews.....and all this for what? Just so his prophecy about a so-called messiah could be true.

And the part that you seem to be missing is that He is God. What He said was that He would be betrayed. So, even if He does what you say and Judas goes away, He is still going to be betrayed by someone ... which was my premise from the beginning.

This same Jesus who supposedly was the Old Testament god, also was responsible for killing innocent children, babies, women and men. This is consistent in scripture as well. Why you refuse to acknowledge this is beyond me.
This same Jesus also promises an eternal hell fire for ALL eternity for those who refuse to be obedient to laws he broke himself. LOL!!

And what laws would you claim that He broke? After all, those who accused Him and brought Him to trial did not see Him convicted of anything.

In all your dealings, have any of those same people been promised by Jesus in the physical flesh: eternal life, riches beyond their imagination and rulership over the earth? No.

Yes. You and I are among those who have received such promises. However, many of the people that I was referring to are multi-millionaires who have never had to work a day in their lives. They already had riches beyond their imagination.

There's plenty for you to rebut....that's if you could do so, but once again, you fall short.
You're intentionally choosing to evade the three valid points I made earlier. Not one time did you even try and rebut one of those points. Each point has validity which you have no logical answer for.

As I have delineated to you on several occasions

So, if Matthew was written for Jews, why has it been left for us who aren't Jews? LOL!! Again, your theory makes no sense. It's merely an excuse for you to avoid addressing valid points already made.

The mere fact that you ask such a question betrays your ignorance.

You claimed that there was a book called Jeremiah that comprised the writings of several prophets, but you've presented not a shred of evidence to support your theory. This speaks volumes. Where's this book?

Please READ AGAIN what I "claimed" and then extricate your keyboard from your mouth.

Your ignorance does not serve you well. The text was not rendered in English, it was rendered in Aramaic. The target audience is Hebrew. In order to understand what Matthew wrote in its context one has to get inside the Hebrew culture. Had you chosen to do that, you would know that at the time of Matthew's writing the OT books of prophecy were considered as 1 book, something which the English translators did not consider. Study does help.

Do your research and then get back to me...

Well, you need to go back to that SAME rabbi who gave you this information and ask him to present to you this book you spoke about called Jeremiah. You may be willing to take the word of a rabbi, but I need more than just somebody's word or hearsay. Please present evidence of such a book.

...and while you are researching that, research the history of the Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim, making particular note of what they were called and how they were organized IN THE VERSIONS OF THE BOOKS THAT PRECEDED THEM. You will find your answers there. Do your own research. Don't believe me; believe the people who have lived this stuff for centuries. Then, get back to me.

Just admit that you don't have a rebuttal to the verses in Zechariah which have nothing to do with any messiah. Your inability to rebut is telling indeed. It tells me that you don't understand simple content in the bible OR that you're in denial.
In all actuality, I KNEW you wouldn't have a decent rebuttal before I even asked the question, but I thought I'd give you the honor of at least trying to give a decent rebuttal, however to no avail.
...
Yeah, thanks for running from the request. I'm not at all surprised.

I really tried to allow you to save face on this one, but I can't any longer.

• V. 1 - 7 Talk about Messiah coming and why.
• V. 8 - 14 Speak of Messiah's acts. Zechariah relates how his personal experience foreshadows what Messiah would encounter.
• V. 15-17 Talk about the apostacy after Messiah has gone and left the responsibility to believers.

Somehow you missed that. You would not receive a very good grade for your lack of evaluation.

You're that way for a reason. When you can't answer simple questions about a book you claim to have knowledge of, your subjectivity really shows.

Thanks. A second compliment!

The few passages you did post were totally taken out of context, especially the verses listed in Zechariah.
Again you're evading by talking about something that has nothing to do with the questions posed of "how can one see god", eventhough the Jesus character claims that "no man hath seen god at ANY time"? You continue to avoid answering this simple question like the plague.

Huh? What are you talking about? You made the claim that Adam's sin brought on death. You were the one claiming that diseases were caused by evil spirits.
Since you're making such claims, I challenge you to back them up with scientific evidence. The burden of proof is on the one making the affirmative claim which is you.
I simply stated that there's no evidence supporting the theory that killer bacteria are the result of evil spirits.
I KNOW you can't, but I'll at least be fair to you by asking like I've done in the past.

There no burden of proof for scientific evidence on Scripture. I simply stated that there is no scientific evidence to support the theory that killer bacteria ARE NOT the result of evil spirits.

According to Judaism, the Jesus character didn't redeem anything and he was only a prophet....if that.
The authors of the bible clearly state that the church is built off the foundation of the prophets (mainly in the Old Testament) and apostles.
What passages did the apostles quote from? Where did they acquire their rituals, holy days, laws, commandments and statutes from? The Old Testatment, that's where. Like I said, without Judaism, there would be no Christianity.

In case you did not notice, I agreed with you. However, most of the NT is written about how Christianity IS NOT Judaism.

I've posted empirical evidence on multiple occasions showing how the biblical writers plagiarized the writings of other religions, then again you already know this. Besides, you don't really want to know any way. If you did, you'd have taken heed to previous posts I've made regarding this subject.

Claims, deduction, conjecture - such as yours - and evidence are not the same things. Where is your EVIDENCE?

 

[JayRob]

Of course I have an answer. I posed the question to have you present your answer. You haven't ... in direct contradiction to what you earlier claimed to do.

It's hard to answer a question that doesn't make sense.

To what would Jesus have betrayed Himself? He had claimed to be Messiah. That was not a secret. There had been other times that His enemies had sought to take His life and he had escaped. Of what was He charged?

He didn't betray himself, he betrayed Judas by not revealing valuable information to him.
As far as him being charged, that's not the issue. The issue was that he came to die. He didn't need Judas for that. He could've turned himself over to the Jews and let them do what they wanted to do.

I have done this repeatedly and come back to the room hours later to find the addict gone and the crack just as I left it. What is your experience in doing this?

What about the part about the Jesus character putting a known thief in charge of the treasury? Why would he do that?

Judas had been taught the same thing about the betrayer from a child ... and did it anyway.

Please present evidence that Judas knew that he would specifically become a betrayer of the messiah. If not, this is what you call conjecture.

And the part that you seem to be missing is that He is God. What He said was that He would be betrayed. So, even if He does what you say and Judas goes away, He is still going to be betrayed by someone ... which was my premise from the beginning.

So you readily admit that Judas was set up to be a patsy and a tool? If there was no Judas, your god would've manufactured one? Is that what you're saying.

And what laws would you claim that He broke? After all, those who accused Him and brought Him to trial did not see Him convicted of anything.

As god of the Old Testament, he broke several laws....murder, stealing, coveteousness, etc.
As far as him being accused, that wasn't the issue. The issue was that he was destined to die. All the Jesus character had to do was turn himself over to the Jews. Instead of going that route, he got Judas involved.

Yes. You and I are among those who have received such promises. However, many of the people that I was referring to are multi-millionaires who have never had to work a day in their lives. They already had riches beyond their imagination.

So you're claiming that a physical Jesus came down in our lifetime and promised currently living folks that they'll receive promises beyond their imagination? If you are, then I'm claiming that the moon is made of cheese.

As I have delineated to you on several occasions

Your silence on the three points speak volumes.

The mere fact that you ask such a question betrays your ignorance.

You stated that Matthew was written for physical Jews. If one isn't a physical Jew, then according to your claim, Matthew isn't for them.

Please READ AGAIN what I "claimed" and then extricate your keyboard from your mouth.

​

Do your research and then get back to me...

The burden of proof is on you. You're the person claiming that there's this book called Jeremiah that's supposed to account for several writings of OT prophets. I simply asked you to show were I can find info on such a book.

...and while you are researching that, research the history of the Torah, Neviim, Ketuvim, making particular note of what they were called and how they were organized IN THE VERSIONS OF THE BOOKS THAT PRECEDED THEM. You will find your answers there. Do your own research. Don't believe me; believe the people who have lived this stuff for centuries. Then, get back to me.

It's you who need to present the research since you're the one claiming such writings. Please present info on this book of Jeremiah.

I really tried to allow you to save face on this one, but I can't any longer.

• V. 1 - 7 Talk about Messiah coming and why.

• 
  
  Neither of these verses refer to a messiah. It's referring to Zechariah preaching to the inhabitants of the land where he's located and warning them of impending doom.
  
  

  [*]V. 8 - 14 Speak of Messiah's acts. Zechariah relates how his personal experience foreshadows what Messiah would encounter.

  
  These verses refer to acts of Zechariah. Not one time is a messiah mentioned.
  
  

  [*]V. 15-17 Talk about the apostacy after Messiah has gone and left the responsibility to believers.

  
  Again, these verses say not one thing about a messiah. It's about an evil shepherd being raised. Are you claiming that this evil shepherd is the messiah?
  
  

  Somehow you missed that. You would not receive a very good grade for your lack of evaluation.

  
  I think it's you who've missed it. Nowhere in Zechariah 11 does it mention a word about a messiah or a future messiah. Nowhere are those verses claiming to be dual writings, one about Zechariah and a future messiah. Those verses only refer to Zechariah and some evil future shepherd.
  
  

  Thanks. A second compliment!

  
  Being subjective is not a compliment. Being subjective shows how biased and unbalanced once's thinking can be. If you want to take that as a compliment, that's your prerogative.
  
  

  Again you're evading by talking about something that has nothing to do with the questions posed of "how can one see god", eventhough the Jesus character claims that "no man hath seen god at ANY time"? You continue to avoid answering this simple question like the plague.

  
  How can one see god eventhough the New Testament stated that "no man hath seen god at any time"?
  
  

  There no burden of proof for scientific evidence on Scripture. I simply stated that there is no scientific evidence to support the theory that killer bacteria ARE NOT the result of evil spirits.

  
  Why shouldn't scripture have to prove itself to be legitimate and not fake?
  
  Now please present evidence showing how evil spirits cause diseases. The average person who makes such claims usually end up in an asylum.
  
  

  In case you did not notice, I agreed with you. However, most of the NT is written about how Christianity IS NOT Judaism.

  
  If that's the case, then you're agreeing that Christianity was founded on Judaism.
  
  

  Claims, deduction, conjecture - such as yours - and evidence are not the same things. Where is your EVIDENCE?

  
  I've posted much evidence clearly showing how New Testament writers copied and plagiarized information and writings from previous religions and called it their own.
  Evidence of this is in the bible of how NT writers copied verses from the Old Testament and claimed that prophecy was being fulfilled from OT writings.
  The writers of Islam did the same thing when they plagiarized texts from the Old Testament and added it to their writings.

 

[dacontinent]

It's hard to answer a question that doesn't make sense.

Just in case someone comes looking for scientific evidence. I will leave this for them to assess the sensibility of the question.

Maybe you are finally catching on ... that Jesus came to offer Himself. Did He need Judas for this purpose? No. Had there been other attempts on His life from which He escaped? Multiple. What, then, was different about the Gethsemane situation? Perhaps your answer to that question will give you the satisfaction that you seek.

He didn't betray himself, he betrayed Judas by not revealing valuable information to him.
As far as him being charged, that's not the issue. The issue was that he came to die. He didn't need Judas for that. He could've turned himself over to the Jews and let them do what they wanted to do.

The issue was blame for the betrayal of Christ. That he had come to die was both clear and prevalent.

What about the part about the Jesus character putting a known thief in charge of the treasury? Why would he do that?

As I have said repeatedly, there is no commentary on WHY in all of Scripture. So, you will just have to ask Him yourself.

Please present evidence that Judas knew that he would specifically become a betrayer of the messiah. If not, this is what you call conjecture.

Done.

So you readily admit that Judas was set up to be a patsy and a tool? If there was no Judas, your god would've manufactured one? Is that what you're saying.

What I have said - repeatedly - is that if Judas had not been a personality in this story at all, then Jesus would have still been betrayed by someone in fostering his murder.

As god of the Old Testament, he broke several laws....murder, stealing, coveteousness, etc.
As far as him being accused, that wasn't the issue. The issue was that he was destined to die. All the Jesus character had to do was turn himself over to the Jews. Instead of going that route, he got Judas involved.

I would really love to see evidence of these.

So you're claiming that a physical Jesus came down in our lifetime and promised currently living folks that they'll receive promises beyond their imagination? If you are, then I'm claiming that the moon is made of cheese.

You may claim anything you'd like. The body of Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and according to Scripture will not be coming back here until the gospel has been preached in all the world. Since the latter has not happened yet, He is still there. So, no, I am not saying what you suggest at all.

Your silence on the three points speak volumes.
...
You stated that Matthew was written for physical Jews. If one isn't a physical Jew, then according to your claim, Matthew isn't for them.
...
Neither of these verses refer to a messiah. It's referring to Zechariah preaching to the inhabitants of the land where he's located and warning them of impending doom.
...
These verses refer to acts of Zechariah. Not one time is a messiah mentioned.
...
Again, these verses say not one thing about a messiah. It's about an evil shepherd being raised. Are you claiming that this evil shepherd is the messiah?
...
I think it's you who've missed it. Nowhere in Zechariah 11 does it mention a word about a messiah or a future messiah. Nowhere are those verses claiming to be dual writings, one about Zechariah and a future messiah. Those verses only refer to Zechariah and some evil future shepherd.

Your ignorance screams at peak volume. You waste a great deal of intellect in order to remain ignorant.

The burden of proof is on you. You're the person claiming that there's this book called Jeremiah that's supposed to account for several writings of OT prophets. I simply asked you to show were I can find info on such a book.
...
It's you who need to present the research since you're the one claiming such writings. Please present info on this book of Jeremiah.

I have. Did you follow-up on my instructions?

Being subjective is not a compliment. Being subjective shows how biased and unbalanced once's thinking can be. If you want to take that as a compliment, that's your prerogative.

Thanks.

How can one see god eventhough the New Testament stated that "no man hath seen god at any time"?

The NT does not say that. It does say that "...no man hath seen God at any time...". Jesus explains it to Philip and JayRob doesn't find the explanation to his liking. Pity.

Why shouldn't scripture have to prove itself to be legitimate and not fake?

Scripture - ANY scripture - proves itself over the expanse of time that it addresses. So, for one to see the proof, he must live beyond the scope of that time. Those living in the interim will require faith to believe what those scriptures say.

Now please present evidence showing how evil spirits cause diseases. The average person who makes such claims usually end up in an asylum.

Already done ... repeatedly.

If that's the case, then you're agreeing that Christianity was founded on Judaism.

He finally agrees with Scripture on something.

I've posted much evidence clearly showing how New Testament writers copied and plagiarized information and writings from previous religions and called it their own.
Evidence of this is in the bible of how NT writers copied verses from the Old Testament and claimed that prophecy was being fulfilled from OT writings.
The writers of Islam did the same thing when they plagiarized texts from the Old Testament and added it to their writings.

No, you haven't. You have posted information that shows some similar thoughts were expressed by multiple groups of people. You have not posted any evidence that any of them copied or plagiarized anything.

 

[JayRob]

Just in case someone comes looking for scientific evidence. I will leave this for them to assess the sensibility of the question.

What you post has absolutely nothing to do with scientific evidence. As far as what was different about the Gethsemane is that the Jesus character used Judas as a tool in helping himself to be turned over to the Jews.

The issue was blame for the betrayal of Christ. That he had come to die was both clear and prevalent.

If he had come to die, why did he need Judas?

As I have said repeatedly, there is no commentary on WHY in all of Scripture. So, you will just have to ask Him yourself.

Well, at least you admit you don't know. There's no commentary on "why" in scripture perhaps because it never happened. As far as asking "him" myself, there's no evidence of any "real" Judas of Iscariot to begin with.

Done.

What do you mean done? You didn't even bother to present evidence that Judas knew that he would specifically become a betrayer of the messiah as you claimed. Where's the evidence to support your theory?

What I have said - repeatedly - is that if Judas had not been a personality in this story at all, then Jesus would have still been betrayed by someone in fostering his murder.

So what you're saying in so many words is that someone else would've been used as a convenient "too" just as Judas was. Seems like you agree with me without having to come right out and say you do.

I would really love to see evidence of these.

One should be hesitant to require evidence of anything seeing that you hardly ever provide it yourself.
As far as real evidence that millions were killed in 40 days and 40 nights, there's no real evidence that such a worldwide flood occurred roughly 4,000 years ago. According to the bible EVERY living creature was killed off except eight.
Why would a "loving" god kill off innocent women, babies, boys, girls and men? That alone is outright murder.
If the flood story is true, then your savior is guilty of mass murder.

You may claim anything you'd like. The body of Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father and according to Scripture will not be coming back here until the gospel has been preached in all the world. Since the latter has not happened yet, He is still there. So, no, I am not saying what you suggest at all.

You're the one who made the claim that people you know who are currently living, witnessed this Jesus person promising them riches beyond their imagination.....in person. It's interesting that you're backing off that statement by saying that he's in heaven at the right hand and isn't scheduled to come back and hasn't come back in person. If you hadn't admitted such, you would've dug yourself an even deeper hole.

Your ignorance screams at peak volume. You waste a great deal of intellect in order to remain ignorant.

Call me what you will, however the fact still remain that nowhere in Zechariah 11 does it mention a word about a messiah or a future messiah. Nowhere are those verses claiming to be dual writings, one about Zechariah and a future messiah. Those verses only refer to Zechariah and some evil future shepherd.
Seems as if it's you who are mistaken about simple words in a chapter that says nothing about a messiah.

I have. Did you follow-up on my instructions?

If you have the ability to write instructions, you should have the ability to post the results and findings of those instructions. It's quite obvious that you can't, so you make attempts to filibuster your way out of the question.
If you can't post simple findings of your theory about a book called "Jeremiah" that listed the writings of other prophets, please "man-up" and admit it.

Thanks.

So you admit that when it comes to the Jesus character and your being objective and fair, that it's not possible for you to be objective?

The NT does not say that. It does say that "...no man hath seen God at any time...". Jesus explains it to Philip and JayRob doesn't find the explanation to his liking. Pity.

Whether I like scripture or not isn't the issue. The issue is whether the two verses contradict each other and it's quite obvious that both do. The Jesus character says that "no man hath seen god at any time", then another verse says, "I have seen god". Those are clear contradictions whether you want to admit it or not.

Scripture - ANY scripture - proves itself over the expanse of time that it addresses. So, for one to see the proof, he must live beyond the scope of that time. Those living in the interim will require faith to believe what those scriptures say.

Those living in the "interim" NEED faith because they won't find a shred of evidence to support those verses. That's what the bible is all about....having a mere belief in something because there's no evidence.

Already done ... repeatedly.

Please post evidence again showing that evil spirits cause diseases. I must have missed it the first time.

He finally agrees with Scripture on something.

So you're saying that Christianity was founded on another religion just as Islam was founded on another religion just as Judaism was found on another religion? If you're saying this, then you're right.

N

o, you haven't. You have posted information that shows some similar thoughts were expressed by multiple groups of people. You have not posted any evidence that any of them copied or plagiarized anything.

Similar thoughts?! LOL!! How convenient that the Christian religion has dozens and dozens of the same characteristics as earlier pagan religions? This goes far beyond just having similar thoughts. The Catholic church even had to admit that those characteristics were more than just having similar thoughts.
Some of those similar thoughts are: born of a virgin; ascended to the underworld; followed by a star; was the son of god; ascended to heaven; savior of the world; turned water to wine; communion of bread and wine; presiding over judgment of the soul; hellfire; a worldwide flood; the commandments; temples, incense, prayers, offerings, priesthood, holy days, animal sacrifices; loving one's neighbor as himself taught by Confucius hundreds of years before Christianity; "Amen" is a title of the Egyptian god which was evoked at the end of every prayer; born again teachings; Persian: God created the world in six days, a man called Adama, a woman called Evah, and then rested.
The Etruscan, Babylonian, Phoenician, Chaldean and the Egyptian stories are much the same.

The above are just a few of the plagiarized copying and borrowing from other religions by biblical authors.

 

[dacontinent]

What you post has absolutely nothing to do with scientific evidence. As far as what was different about the Gethsemane is that the Jesus character used Judas as a tool in helping himself to be turned over to the Jews.

What I posted was the question that I gave you to answer but you reasoned that it did not make sense.

If he had come to die, why did he need Judas?

He didn't need Judas.

Well, at least you admit you don't know. There's no commentary on "why" in scripture perhaps because it never happened. As far as asking "him" myself, there's no evidence of any "real" Judas of Iscariot to begin with.

Not only do I not know, no one on Earth knows. Your "perhaps" is mere speculation.

What do you mean done? You didn't even bother to present evidence that Judas knew that he would specifically become a betrayer of the messiah as you claimed. Where's the evidence to support your theory?

The evidence is right where I said it was. I refuse to go round-and-round with this...

So what you're saying in so many words is that someone else would've been used as a convenient "too" just as Judas was. Seems like you agree with me without having to come right out and say you do.

...or this.

One should be hesitant to require evidence of anything seeing that you hardly ever provide it yourself.
As far as real evidence that millions were killed in 40 days and 40 nights, there's no real evidence that such a worldwide flood occurred roughly 4,000 years ago. According to the bible EVERY living creature was killed off except eight.
Why would a "loving" god kill off innocent women, babies, boys, girls and men? That alone is outright murder.
If the flood story is true, then your savior is guilty of mass murder.

Try capital punishment.

You're the one who made the claim that people you know who are currently living, witnessed this Jesus person promising them riches beyond their imagination.....in person. It's interesting that you're backing off that statement by saying that he's in heaven at the right hand and isn't scheduled to come back and hasn't come back in person. If you hadn't admitted such, you would've dug yourself an even deeper hole.

No holes here, sir. It is just as I said. The offer to you is still on the table: riches beyond your imagination ... forever ... inexhaustible ... in person.

Call me what you will, however the fact still remain that nowhere in Zechariah 11 does it mention a word about a messiah or a future messiah. Nowhere are those verses claiming to be dual writings, one about Zechariah and a future messiah. Those verses only refer to Zechariah and some evil future shepherd.
Seems as if it's you who are mistaken about simple words in a chapter that says nothing about a messiah.

Okay, since you offered: IGNORANT.

If you have the ability to write instructions, you should have the ability to post the results and findings of those instructions. It's quite obvious that you can't, so you make attempts to filibuster your way out of the question.
If you can't post simple findings of your theory about a book called "Jeremiah" that listed the writings of other prophets, please "man-up" and admit it.

I can't post it without the text. I don't own the text and the rabbi would not allow me to borrow the books. So, unless someone else has it on the internet somewhere, I can't post it. However, IF YOU WANT TO KNOW, you could just do what I did. That is precisely why I put the ball in your court.

So you admit that when it comes to the Jesus character and your being objective and fair, that it's not possible for you to be objective?

No. I do not admit that at all.

Whether I like scripture or not isn't the issue. The issue is whether the two verses contradict each other and it's quite obvious that both do. The Jesus character says that "no man hath seen god at any time", then another verse says, "I have seen god". Those are clear contradictions whether you want to admit it or not.

So, since you offered: IGNORANT.

Those living in the "interim" NEED faith because they won't find a shred of evidence to support those verses. That's what the bible is all about....having a mere belief in something because there's no evidence.

Hebrews 11 says just the opposite.

Please post evidence again showing that evil spirits cause diseases. I must have missed it the first time.

You did not miss it. You have reposted it plenty of times in multiple threads.

So you're saying that Christianity was founded on another religion just as Islam was founded on another religion just as Judaism was found on another religion? If you're saying this, then you're right.

Okay, since you offered: SLOW.

Similar thoughts?! LOL!! How convenient that the Christian religion has dozens and dozens of the same characteristics as earlier pagan religions? This goes far beyond just having similar thoughts. The Catholic church even had to admit that those characteristics were more than just having similar thoughts.
Some of those similar thoughts are: born of a virgin; ascended to the underworld; followed by a star; was the son of god; ascended to heaven; savior of the world; turned water to wine; communion of bread and wine; presiding over judgment of the soul; hellfire; a worldwide flood; the commandments; temples, incense, prayers, offerings, priesthood, holy days, animal sacrifices; loving one's neighbor as himself taught by Confucius hundreds of years before Christianity; "Amen" is a title of the Egyptian god which was evoked at the end of every prayer; born again teachings; Persian: God created the world in six days, a man called Adama, a woman called Evah, and then rested.
The Etruscan, Babylonian, Phoenician, Chaldean and the Egyptian stories are much the same.

The above are just a few of the plagiarized copying and borrowing from other religions by biblical authors.

One more time: Where is your EVIDENCE?

 

[JayRob]

What I posted was the question that I gave you to answer but you reasoned that it did not make sense.

The primary difference is that the Jesus character used Judas as a tool instead of using the Egyptian pharoah.

He didn't need Judas.

The story says otherwise. If the Jesus character didn't need him, why did he have to resort to using him?

Not only do I not know, no one on Earth knows. Your "perhaps" is mere speculation.

Again, there's not one shred of evidence outside of the bible showing that a "real" Judas Iscariot ever existed. The burden of proof is on you to prove that there was such a person.

The evidence is right where I said it was. I refuse to go round-and-round with this...

Still can't show where Judas knew that HE would be specifically be the betrayer from Old Testament scripture?

...or this.

You can't have it both ways. First you claim that Judas wasn't used as a tool, then you turn around and say that if there was no Judas, someone else would've been used in his place? It's either one or the other.

Try capital punishment.

Capital punishment for newborn babies and small children?! Please explain.

No holes here, sir. It is just as I said. The offer to you is still on the table: riches beyond your imagination ... forever ... inexhaustible ... in person.

Jesus came to your friends in person and offered them eternal riches? LOL!! Do you have a video of these meetings as evidence?

Okay, since you offered: IGNORANT.

Again, call me what you will, however the fact still remains that nowhere in Zechariah 11 does it mention a word about a messiah or a future messiah. Nowhere are those verses claiming to be dual writings, one about Zechariah and a future messiah. Those verses only refer to Zechariah and some evil future shepherd.

I can't post it without the text. I don't own the text and the rabbi would not allow me to borrow the books. So, unless someone else has it on the internet somewhere, I can't post it. However, IF YOU WANT TO KNOW, you could just do what I did. That is precisely why I put the ball in your court.

What do you mean you can't post it? You were the one to bring it up about this rabbi and this book. Either put up or shut up. If you can't support your theory with evidence, experience should tell you not to even mention it.
It's clear and obvious that you can't post anything to support your statement showing that there's a book called Jeremiah which lists the writings of several Old Testament prophets.
And please, don't say that the ball is in my court when you're the one who can't present evidence for his own theory. The ball is in your court and will remain in your court until you provide evidence to support your theory about this book.

No. I do not admit that at all.

That's due to pure stubbornness. You've admitted that you're biased toward anything Jesus-related.

So, since you offered: IGNORANT.

I didn't ask for an opinion, I asked for evidence. Please show how the two verses are not contradictory. Instead of addressing the question, you'd rather resort to name-calling to evade answering the question.
Again, the Jesus character says that "no man hath seen god at any time", then another verse says, "I have seen god". How are they not contradictory?

Hebrews 11 says just the opposite.

That's not accurate at all. It says that "faith is the evidence of things hoped for even though one can't see it." That's why it's called faith. Faith simply means to believe, to hope for and to think that what one prays for will come to pass.
Faith doesn't require evidence at all. If there was evidence, there would be no need for faith because what one is praying for has already come to fruition. In other words, once evidence becomes evident there's no more need for faith.
It requires faith for one to believe that the sun stopped in midstream; it requires faith for one to believe that an "ass" spoke in the Hebrew language; it requires faith to believe that a whole river split in two to allow roughly 2-3 million people to cross it. Why? Because there's not one shred of evidence to support either scenario.

You did not miss it. You have reposted it plenty of times in multiple threads.

Not one time did I post evidence of evil spirits causing major diseases. Again you're evading answering the question as to showing proof that evil spirits cause diseases such as cancer, smallpox, diabetes, etc.

Okay, since you offered: SLOW.

So you readily admit that Christianity is founded on another religion. That's progress.

One more time: Where is your EVIDENCE?

Evidence that material from the bible was stolen from previous cultures and religions?! Do you really need me to post more evidence than I've already posted over the past year or two proving this? Come on man!!!
Due to your admitted biased mentality, you paid little attention to the evidence, so why should I post the same material again?
It's you who need to post evidence far more than me.....seriously.

 

[dacontinent]

The story says otherwise. If the Jesus character didn't need him, why did he have to resort to using him?

He didn't. That has been my point all along.

Again, there's not one shred of evidence outside of the bible showing that a "real" Judas Iscariot ever existed. The burden of proof is on you to prove that there was such a person.

If he never existed, then the title of this thread has no real premise at all.

Still can't show where Judas knew that HE would be specifically be the betrayer from Old Testament scripture?

I showed where he knew that he was.

You can't have it both ways. First you claim that Judas wasn't used as a tool, then you turn around and say that if there was no Judas, someone else would've been used in his place? It's either one or the other.

The first case is real. The second is hypothetical. They are completely different.

Capital punishment for newborn babies and small children?! Please explain.

You already know better. It is the belief system and culture. In the western world, we don't generally view women and children as soldiers; in the eastern world, it is just the opposite...even to this day.

Jesus came to your friends in person and offered them eternal riches? LOL!! Do you have a video of these meetings as evidence?

No video nor audio. Jesus is coming to you as you are reading this sentence to offer you the same. What will you respond?

Again, call me what you will, however the fact still remains that nowhere in Zechariah 11 does it mention a word about a messiah or a future messiah. Nowhere are those verses claiming to be dual writings, one about Zechariah and a future messiah. Those verses only refer to Zechariah and some evil future shepherd.

Take whatever position you like but know that the truth about the Messiah is right there in the passage that you read and you cannont see it.

What do you mean you can't post it? You were the one to bring it up about this rabbi and this book. Either put up or shut up. If you can't support your theory with evidence, experience should tell you not to even mention it.
It's clear and obvious that you can't post anything to support your statement showing that there's a book called Jeremiah which lists the writings of several Old Testament prophets.
And please, don't say that the ball is in my court when you're the one who can't present evidence for his own theory. The ball is in your court and will remain in your court until you provide evidence to support your theory about this book.

In case it has not registered with you, not all of the text of the world have been posted to the internet. I cannot post what is not there, but I can (and did) refer you to where you can find it. If you want to come to visit me, I will take you to the rabbi that I know and you can see it. I just thought that it would be more convenient for you to do it from where you live.

That's due to pure stubbornness. You've admitted that you're biased toward anything Jesus-related.

I think you are catching-on.

I didn't ask for an opinion, I asked for evidence. Please show how the two verses are not contradictory. Instead of addressing the question, you'd rather resort to name-calling to evade answering the question.
Again, the Jesus character says that "no man hath seen god at any time", then another verse says, "I have seen god". How are they not contradictory?

He is God. That is the whole point of John 1.

That's not accurate at all. It says that "faith is the evidence of things hoped for even though one can't see it." That's why it's called faith. Faith simply means to believe, to hope for and to think that what one prays for will come to pass.
Faith doesn't require evidence at all. If there was evidence, there would be no need for faith because what one is praying for has already come to fruition. In other words, once evidence becomes evident there's no more need for faith.
It requires faith for one to believe that the sun stopped in midstream; it requires faith for one to believe that an "ass" spoke in the Hebrew language; it requires faith to believe that a whole river split in two to allow roughly 2-3 million people to cross it. Why? Because there's not one shred of evidence to support either scenario.

If only it were that complicated. You need to read a few more verses in Hebrews 11. You walked right by "hupostasis", "fainomenoon", "euaresteo", and "proserchomenon". Clear as a bell.

Not one time did I post evidence of evil spirits causing major diseases. Again you're evading answering the question as to showing proof that evil spirits cause diseases such as cancer, smallpox, diabetes, etc.

Of course you did not do that. Nor have you posted any evidence that evil spirits are not the source of disease. There is no science of spirits.

So you readily admit that Christianity is founded on another religion. That's progress.

Christianity is founded on Jesus Christ, the fulfillment of all the code of Judaism, who then opened unto is the Kingdom of God. So, yes, Christianity has Judaism as a tributary, but it is not Judaism in doctrine nor boundary.

Evidence that material from the bible was stolen from previous cultures and religions?! Do you really need me to post more evidence than I've already posted over the past year or two proving this? Come on man!!!
Due to your admitted biased mentality, you paid little attention to the evidence, so why should I post the same material again?
It's you who need to post evidence far more than me.....seriously.

You haven't posted ANY evidence of this contention EVER. Conjecture is not evidence.

One minute you want to be a scientist and the next minute you want to be subjective.

 

[JayRob]

He didn't. That has been my point all along.

You don't know this because the chance was never given for this to come to pass. You're just speculating and going in circles. In the process, you continue to admit that the fictional Judas character was a mere tool who could've been replaced by another proxy if he hadn't followed the script.

If he never existed, then the title of this thread has no real premise at all.

I agree. I just posted for mere speculation and to show how nonsensical and fictional the story is. LOL!!
Still though, you never provided any evidence that Judas existed. You totally evaded the question.

I showed where he knew that he was.

No you didn't. Nowhere in the Old Testament is Judas' name specifically mentioned. Judas had no idea that he would be the betrayer until the evening of the incident.

The first case is real. The second is hypothetical. They are completely different.

If you can't provided extra-biblical evidence, you're merely speculating that Judas actually existed. As far as the second is concerned, you finally got it right. It's hypothetical which is akin to speculation, not evidence.

You already know better. It is the belief system and culture. In the western world, we don't generally view women and children as soldiers; in the eastern world, it is just the opposite...even to this day.

In what culture is a newborn baby considered a soldier? You continue to just make up stuff with nothing to support it. Nevermind how illogical it sounds. Newborn babies in the military?! Nothing you post or say can justify the mass murdering of newborn babies and children. It's ashame that you'd even try to do so.

No video nor audio. Jesus is coming to you as you are reading this sentence to offer you the same. What will you respond?

Again, no evidence, only speculation. How many times are you going to make statements with no supporting evidence? Each time you do this, your credibility continues to wane.
It's insulting that you expected me to believe that the Jesus character came in person to your friends to promise them riches and heaven. It's good that you've corrected and backtracked from such thinking.

Take whatever position you like but know that the truth about the Messiah is right there in the passage that you read and you cannont see it.

The reason I can't see it is because it's not there in Zechariah. This is why there are at least 31,000 different denominations in the Christian religion, all with differing beliefs and not on the same page.
Folks read and misinterpret simple English and don't even know it.
Who is the evil shepherd mentioned in Zechariah 11?

In case it has not registered with you, not all of the text of the world have been posted to the internet. I cannot post what is not there, but I can (and did) refer you to where you can find it. If you want to come to visit me, I will take you to the rabbi that I know and you can see it. I just thought that it would be more convenient for you to do it from where you live.

In other words, you have nothing concrete and factual to support your post about a book of Jeremiah which is supposed to list the writings of several prophets.
If one can't back up what he says, one shouldn't say it. That's called fabrication.

I think you are catching-on.

So if you're biased, that tells me you're not a "just" person when it comes to the bible. It's a good thing you're not a court judge. Your admitted personal and biased attitude would certainly cloud the balances of justice in a court of law.

He is God. That is the whole point of John 1.

So him being god is supposed to explain away contradicting verses? The Jesus character is the very one who said that "no man hath seen god AT ANY TIME", so how could he BE god if he claimed that no man hath seen him at anytime?
If he was on earth for several years, then folks did SEE him. Why would he even make the statement IF he was god?

Dacon, you can twist and try to make it fit, but fact of the matter is that the two passages still contradict each other regardless how much you try to explain it away.

If only it were that complicated. You need to read a few more verses in Hebrews 11. You walked right by "hupostasis", "fainomenoon", "euaresteo", and "proserchomenon". Clear as a bell.

You walked right past the oldest trick in the book. As a matter of fact, you walked right past the oldest trick in most Western religions.
Say something is there when in all actuality, it's not. For example, one of the things hoped for could be heaven. Heaven is not here, so one has to have "faith" that there is such a place as described in the bible where the biblical god resides on his throne.
This is the kind of faith that's mentioned in Hebrew. There's no evidence, but one's belief is counted as evidence. How can one lose with such massive deception and slight of hand tricks? Just believe and it's counted as evidence.

Only in religion....ONLY in religion could one be enticed to believe that an "ass" spoke Hebrew or that a massive river split in two to allow 2-3 million people to cross it or that the sun stopped in midstream. All without factual and supporting evidence. That's why it's called "faith".

Of course you did not do that. Nor have you posted any evidence that evil spirits are not the source of disease. There is no science of spirits.

There is no medical evidence showing that evil spirits are the cause of diseases. The bible makes claim that evil spirits DO cause diseases. The burden of proof is on the party making the claim. You seem to keep running away from this claim by trying to put the burden of proof on me.
Is my asking you to show evidence of such a thing too hard of a task for you to do? All I'm asking is that you present evidence proving that evil spirits cause diseases. It's as simple as that. The burden of proof is on the one making the affirmative claim. Please remember this.
By the way, pagan shamans of Africa and Asia believe the same as you do about evil spirits. Strange bedfellows indeed.

Christianity is founded on Jesus Christ, the fulfillment of all the code of Judaism, who then opened unto is the Kingdom of God. So, yes, Christianity has Judaism as a tributary, but it is not Judaism in doctrine nor boundary.

Christianity is founded by the writers of the New Testament, who in turn used the Old Testament (and previous religions) as a foundation in helping to create the religion of Christianity. The Jesus character just happens to be the major actor in the story similar to Kristna being the major actor in the Hindu religion.

You haven't posted ANY evidence of this contention EVER. Conjecture is not evidence.

Over the past two years, I've willingly posted dozens of verified resources supporting my posts much more than you have.
For example, I've posted resources from credible and world renowned archaeologists proving that the exodus never occurred. I'm sure you remember the article and the information in that article.
What extra-biblical evidence have you posted that's credible and reliable? Nothing.

Should I remind you about the bogused article you posted about the African preacher supposedly raising a man from the dead? LOL!! That article was found to be a sham and was supported only by the preacher's sheer imagination, but you took it and ran with it only to find out the hard way that the article and story wasn't true.

One minute you want to be a scientist and the next minute you want to be subjective.

For the most part, scientist are more objective than religious folks. Why? Because they require a product called "evidence" and it has to be peer reviewed by independent parties.
On the other hand, eligion requires something which falls far short of evidence. It's called "faith".