Big Thunder
Well-Known Member
I actually did take the time to ready it, Tony! Thanks for posting it.....Interesting....
Where is the $420 Billion in Tithes and Offerings the Black Church has Received
- Thread starter CEE DOG
- Start date
I actually did take the time to ready it, Tony! Thanks for posting it.....Interesting....
JAG89
THE NEW AMERICA'S TEAM
If one has to battle a non-profit organization for their financial reports, that along is enough that tells me the organization is not to be trusted. When I first moved to Virginia, I remember receiving a phone call at work from the secretary of a church I had not too long recently joined, requesting that I take an hour or two from work to attend a special call meeting. Since the secretary insisted that my present should be there, I went on ahead and took a few hours from work to attend this meeting. Once the meeting started, the church secretary handed out a one page annual budget for adoption by the church's body. After adopting the budget, I told the church secretary that I would like to volunteer my time working with the church financial secretary to keep track of the budget, so that a monthly financial report per the budget could be provided to the congregation each month. The church’s secretary quickly pulled me aside and whisper in my ear that the recently adopted budget was only adopted so that the church could get a $50,000 construction loan from the Bank of the James in Virginia and we will never see that budget again. In order to complete the bank's loan application for churches, the church needed a current year budget adopted by the body attached to the application. After that incident that church slowly became history with me.
Also, by the church being one of the oldest churches in Virginia (100 year plus) and affiliated with a large Baptist congregation, I'm pretty sure other churches like it have done something similar without the knowledge of most of their congregation. Every time I see a college affiliated with a Black church congregation close due to accreditation problems, such as the recent closure of St. Paul College in Lawrenceville, Virginia, it makes me wonder if it was creative financing that cause the school’s demise.
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Tigerpride
THE Logical ONE
Nope, the two pastors I have had for the last 10-15 years have acknowledged that the tithe is old testament law.
Tigerpride
THE Logical ONE
here in Philly at my church and my church back home, in most instances, the members do what they can to render free or cheaper services but, again, the hook up ain't always gonna work especially when insurance is involved.
JAG89
THE NEW AMERICA'S TEAM
That's when the church should encourage their future generation to consider working in service areas that its current congregation is lacking. The church should represent a small community with the potentials to grow. Like I said before, a good church is a church that allows its members to work within the church, basically an inclusive type of membership when it comes to church operations.
Tigerpride
THE Logical ONE
Boy if you give negros a second, they will come up with some schitt. :lol:
I ain't even the most "Christian" person in the world but boy when people don't wanna do something, they find an excuse. I was talking to my mom today and rather than her just saying, "I don't want to." She started saying all kinds of stuff that made no sense.
Times change and it's as simple as that. We ain't about to have church on the outside, no electricity, not music, etc.. We have kids today who can't even live in dorms and they wonder why tuition is quadrupled... they WANT everything. Same as with churches. It's not pastors holding people hostage. The people hold themselves hostage. People are going to go where they think they can get the best service and the best convenience. Preachers used to work for free or they worked for eggs and milk or they asked for a job as they traveled ... ALL of those things were VERY hard to come by and very valuable but they got preferential treatment then as they do now. It's just on a 2013 scales now...as is everything else in the world. My preacher growing up worked hauling pulp wood but while he was a great man and kept the church together, I really didn't learn anything from him. Most of the stuff that people spew out, just like on this thread :lol: is so dumb and wrong and unbiblical until it's not funny but when you only take one example (like preachers in the word didn't get paid) and run with it, you prove it to yourself. Preaching could or should be a full time job if you are going to KNOW what you telling people AND see after the people with hospital visits, bereavement visits, etc...
Most of us would not step a foot inside of a church that is small, cramped, smelly, hot and no microphone. But, I ain't about to post anymore in this topic because just like when it comes to HBCUs and anything else, white people get things done, we give excuses but always wonder why we can't get anything done or done right. And most of the time, it's the men making these excuses but when you look at the church, you see 75-80% women.. and then we wonder why when we look at college, we see 75-80% women...even when we go to HBCU football games now, who you see MOSTLY women. Maybe one day, black folks will change before the races totally blend.
An engineer in the church would be great. I am sure my pastor would listen to ANYTHING that would save money but uuuum solar panels and the conversion to solar energy ain't free nor it is recommended in all places. All things have specifications, limitations and proper usage especially when it is not universal and compatible to everything around it. How many of us have houses with solar panels. Wouldn't that save YOU money? And yes, black people are sometimes afraid of change not just in churches tho but even in frats, etc... Young folks want to make changes but don't want to do any work, pay any dues or come to any events. If HBCU and fraternity/sorority alumni chapters could get 30-40 of 300-400 unactive people in the 25-35 age demographic, we would see major changes but that group only wants to complain and give excuses and excuses grow like wildfire. I spoke with a new initiate the other day about going to Conclave and he gave me a reason his ain't going and that reason was simply passed down to him because it ain't even something he gives a damn about (admittedly) BUT its something to hold on to. If he don't want to pay to register, just say he don't wanna pay and leave the excuses at the door.
I ain't even the most "Christian" person in the world but boy when people don't wanna do something, they find an excuse. I was talking to my mom today and rather than her just saying, "I don't want to." She started saying all kinds of stuff that made no sense.
Times change and it's as simple as that. We ain't about to have church on the outside, no electricity, not music, etc.. We have kids today who can't even live in dorms and they wonder why tuition is quadrupled... they WANT everything. Same as with churches. It's not pastors holding people hostage. The people hold themselves hostage. People are going to go where they think they can get the best service and the best convenience. Preachers used to work for free or they worked for eggs and milk or they asked for a job as they traveled ... ALL of those things were VERY hard to come by and very valuable but they got preferential treatment then as they do now. It's just on a 2013 scales now...as is everything else in the world. My preacher growing up worked hauling pulp wood but while he was a great man and kept the church together, I really didn't learn anything from him. Most of the stuff that people spew out, just like on this thread :lol: is so dumb and wrong and unbiblical until it's not funny but when you only take one example (like preachers in the word didn't get paid) and run with it, you prove it to yourself. Preaching could or should be a full time job if you are going to KNOW what you telling people AND see after the people with hospital visits, bereavement visits, etc...
Most of us would not step a foot inside of a church that is small, cramped, smelly, hot and no microphone. But, I ain't about to post anymore in this topic because just like when it comes to HBCUs and anything else, white people get things done, we give excuses but always wonder why we can't get anything done or done right. And most of the time, it's the men making these excuses but when you look at the church, you see 75-80% women.. and then we wonder why when we look at college, we see 75-80% women...even when we go to HBCU football games now, who you see MOSTLY women. Maybe one day, black folks will change before the races totally blend.
An engineer in the church would be great. I am sure my pastor would listen to ANYTHING that would save money but uuuum solar panels and the conversion to solar energy ain't free nor it is recommended in all places. All things have specifications, limitations and proper usage especially when it is not universal and compatible to everything around it. How many of us have houses with solar panels. Wouldn't that save YOU money? And yes, black people are sometimes afraid of change not just in churches tho but even in frats, etc... Young folks want to make changes but don't want to do any work, pay any dues or come to any events. If HBCU and fraternity/sorority alumni chapters could get 30-40 of 300-400 unactive people in the 25-35 age demographic, we would see major changes but that group only wants to complain and give excuses and excuses grow like wildfire. I spoke with a new initiate the other day about going to Conclave and he gave me a reason his ain't going and that reason was simply passed down to him because it ain't even something he gives a damn about (admittedly) BUT its something to hold on to. If he don't want to pay to register, just say he don't wanna pay and leave the excuses at the door.
Tigerpride
THE Logical ONE
I addressed that in my thesis above. WHEN DOES THAT WORK? How many young people you see in church. You ought to see me BEGGING folks here in Philly to help out with the JSU alumni association. Southern can't even get theirs back up and running here. You act like people just willing to do stuff. THEY ARE NOT!
Those are some real pretty words you put together tho.. LOL but I am sure you are in organizations and you see that 5 people have to do everything or nothing will get done.
It's amazing how folks who don't go to church or UNDERSTAND the bible, the church mission, or vision are the ones who fuss about what the church should be doing. I think I just read one of the craziest things ever....that if an engineer helped to save the church money on their electricity they should not have to pay tithes. REALLY ?!?!
JAG89
THE NEW AMERICA'S TEAM
Reading comprehension is definitely not some folks forte', which is probably the main reason why some folks in the church misinterprets the church's mission. I'm sure you never heard of a preacher misinterpreting the Bible for his own self-serving interest.
Please re-read what I typed below and point out where I said "they should not have to pay tithes".
Here's a few examples of churches on a mission:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/P-QN5BeQC2Y" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/tV-GEp5PAcQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
And there's more.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/rpQa5Vy-_O8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
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unknown
New Member
I don't care if they do show you the financials, you'll still never know where ALL of that money goes. And both my parents were on the church board since I was a kid. Churches are supposed to be non profit, how many of them is that actually the case for? Almost none and that's the reason why it's called the "biggest hustle" in the hood.
unknown
New Member
Half the people that preach the bible don't even understand it so whats your point?
JAG89
THE NEW AMERICA'S TEAM
I understand exactly what you are saying because there are a few churches that operate strictly off of faith.
Figures you know nothing of the upfront cost and complexity of powering a large building on solar energy.
JAG89
THE NEW AMERICA'S TEAM
Solar power is just one example. I'm sure there are other green energy technologies that can be used to conserve energy. And why are we so afraid of complex challenges? A true engineer dreams to work on projects where there are problems to be solved and most Black churches definitely have more than their share of problems, especially when it comes to saving money. I've heard too many preachers tell their congregation to keep the faith, trust in the Lord, and He shall provide with very little explanation on how He shall provide.
After Haiti's big earthquake and due to its limited power supply that causes 3 hours of rolling blackouts at a time throughout the country, a hospital was built to receive power from solar panels on its roof. During daytime operations, the hospital generates enough power to feed power back into Haiti's inadequate power grid.
http://curbed.com/archives/2013/05/30/in-haiti-1800-solar-panels-powers-a-brand-new-hospital.php
JAG89
THE NEW AMERICA'S TEAM
I don't know the initial installation cost of a solar system for commercial buildings, but I'm sure a few engineers in Kansas City have done the engineering economy and determined that a leased solar system would be the best way to save money. I'm sure enough Black churches could come together to get a similar deal. Black churches don't have to re-invent the wheel; all they have to do is make use of what has already been invented.
http://www.treehugger.com/green-inv...tall-solar-panels-80-municipal-buildings.html
southsuburbs
What I Live By...
It's expensive as heyal. I used to work for a company that installed solar systems, Spire Solar, and for the life of me I cant' remember the costs (googling now) but...depending on the electricity costs in that City...it might not be worth it.
In Chicago, Mayor Daley was doing a big push on Green Living so the City would give rebates for people/businesses that installed solar systems, but electricity is not expensive here so it didn't pick up. Now in California, yeah...it's worth it in the long run to install a solar system.
JAG89
THE NEW AMERICA'S TEAM
By it being a lease agreement, it seems like the City of Kansas City will not pay a dime for installation cost. I assume the leasing company has the installation cost built-in the lease payments, which supposed to save taxpayers $40k over the first year, with savings increasing over time.
That's $500 savings per building. Not significant enough for one church to invest the hundreds of thousands of UPFRONT dollars required to implement a system like this.
JAG89
THE NEW AMERICA'S TEAM
You are correct. $500 per church is not a significant amount, which is why I stated, if enough Black churches could come together, they could probably get a deal similar to the Kansas City deal and most Black churches are affiliated with a much larger congregation that are comprised of several churches. But a saving of $1 per building should be enough for ALL churches to start the dialogue. At least it gives them an option when the sole power company decides to raise their rates for no particular reason. Plus, if you would have read the article in my previous post, the UPFRONT investment cost was being absorbed by the company leasing the solar panels. Right now Black churches are stuck at the mercy of the power company that provides them electricity. A little competition might make the current power company lower their rates, which is probably what Mayor Daley did in Chicago per southsuburbs post.
jag4life,
I have one question....Do you work for a utility company?
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JayRob
TigaPaw
So churches are divided along racial lines now? Is there a "league of Black churches somewhere?"
I thought religion was supposed to bring people together. NOT!!:smh:
ATLJag
Active Member
A power bill is the least of a church's worries if they are looking to cut costs. Just as companies tend to cut payroll when times are tight, some churches would need to look at their paid staff and salaries if they are in the red for some reason. Instead of investing in solar energy or trying to get an engineer to help the church for free, they could either cut one of those "assistant to the assistant" types or make some potential positions either part-time or non-paying. There are probably other expenses that could be trimmed as well.
My church gives out financial statements to the members. I know that is not foolproof, but you at least have some indication of where the money is going. As far as tithing goes, my wife and I both tithe. Instead of quoting Malachi, I'll just state that our tithes and offerings definitely help out around tax time :lol: Aside from that, we don't have a problem with giving to our church since they do what they say they are going to do. When the main location said that they were going to expand parking, you saw it happen in a matter of months. When our location said that they were going to buy new shuttle buses, we saw them in the lot in a matter of weeks. That doesn't mean that nothing bad or shady could potentially happen, but there has been tangible evidence so far of where the money is going. That is a little different that some churches where there has been a building fund for 30 years and they haven't even replaced a doorknob.
A lot of this goes back to management and administration. I know that it is not the "holy" way to look at it, but these days you have to run a church like a business if you expect to keep the doors open. Everyone is not going to tithe or even give an offering, so a pastor can't beat the congregation over the head with tithing sermons every Sunday and expect the money to magically double or triple. Just as with any business or even your own household, you have to take a good look at what comes in and then budget accordingly. What has hurt some Black churches is that some want to jump from storefront status to star status without the membership, the money, or the means to do so. Since pastors are human like the rest of us, envy and greed also come into play and some end up getting ahead of themselves. Just as everyone is not meant to be a CEO or a general, not every pastor is meant to have a large congregation and/or a large church.
When you throw the need to business acumen in the mix, the game gets even more tricky. A person can be an excellent mechanic, but if they can't keep their books straight then their repair shop will eventually die. Likewise, a person can be an excellent preacher, but if the church can't budget and keep their books straight, then they will also die. Unfortunately, since some are too proud to die they end up trying to squeeze the most out of the flock rather than seeing the writing on the wall.
CEE DOG
Well-Known Member
I see one thing, religion shole does bring you atheist together. :tup: :lol: It must be doing something right. :emlaugh: