To be a Christian do you have to believe in witchcraft?

[JayRob]

I'm sure that you have seen these passages before; but let's put them together and see if we can reach a common understanding.

Matt 12:1-8

Plucking the corn was considered unlawful by the Pharisees because they counted it as work. This is an example of ceremonial law. Jesus states here that He, not the Pharisees, understands the purpose of the sabbath. Furthermore, He is the lord (ruler) of the sabbath. Hence it is His design and what is or is not done is to serve the purpose for which he intended.​

The fourth commandment is not a ceremonial law, this has nothing to do with the subject of the sabbath. The fact of the matter is that the one person who had the authority to either change or do away with the seventh day sabbath command to keep it holy never changed anything.

Luke 6:6-11

The Pharisees considered healing to be work and violation of the sabbath. Yet, healing is what was needed for this man's hand so Jesus did it.​

Still, those were Pharisaic commands. This has nothing to do with the Jesus character changing the sabbath from the seventh day to the first day of the week and it doesn't negate the command to keep the seventh day holy.

Luke 13:10-17

The woman was given what she needed on the sabbath as no one had helped her in this way before. Jesus identified their position on the sabbath to be hypocritical.​

Still, where's the command for the change?

Luke 14:1-6

We are not told specifically who this afflicted man was, but we do know that this kind of event was only for rabbi and the upper crust of officials. So, this man could have been a Pharisee. Nonetheless, Jesus is now on their turf and poses the question to those who were plotting against him for this very type of "work" on the sabbath. They refuse to answer.​

Again, these verses have nothing to do with whether or not the seventh day was done away with by this Jesus character. You're quoting verses that talked about "specific events" that occurred on the seventh day sabbath, but you haven't posted on verse showing that the seventh day sabbath is done away.

John 5:10-18

Jesus heals the lame man who is promptly accused of breaking the sabbath by carrying his bed. Jesus "broke" the sabbath by healing the man in the first place and responded by saying that He was equal with God.​

​

Again, where is the command to do away with the seventh day sabbath by changing it to the first day of the week. Of all the verses, you still can't provide a shred of evidence where the Jesus character changed anything from Exodus 20.

John 9:10-16

Again Jesus is working on the sabbath by healing. The Pharisees are now divided on the meaning of the sabbath.

There are more instances, but that should be enough to show that the sabbath was not about the number of the day of the week. Rather, it is about the principle of weekly rest in the design of man. Furthermore, there is no command to worship on the seventh day of the week. It is the day that the Jews chose.​

Dude, what do you mean the sabbath wasn't about a number? It's the ONLY command that talks about a specific day of the week. If the day wasn't important, why is it mentioned in the first place? Why bother to mention to keep it (the seventh day) holy? Does your sky god say one thing while meaning another? That's exactly what you're saying when you discard the seventh day for the first day. Can man make the first day of the week holy?

And what Jew chose the seventh day? Did the Jews make up the fourth commandment? Did the Jews command a seventh day? Did the Jews command that the seventh day be kept holy or did your sky god?

With the above comments, you are totally disregarding what your sky god commanded because you want to go on doing what you're doing along with your flock. This shows that you could care less about the commandments because if you can disregard one, you disregard them all.

My local church gathers at the times I gave. Other churches gather at their meeting times for their congregations. They do what works for them. You said...

So who are you and your flock seeking to please, yourselves or your sky god? From what you said, the flocks were trying to please themselves instead of following every command of their sky god. In other words, the fourth commandment is not that important.
Don't worry though because I'm not condemning you all. I actually feel the same way. It's not that important. LOL!!

You, sir, were wrong. It is justified to live right and worship God EVERY DAY of the WEEK. I hope that you won't dispute that.

Every day is not the issue in discussion here, the seventh day is.
Can mankind make unholy what your sky god makes holy? Is that possible? It obviously is since the FIRST day of the week is now the "holy" day of the week for Christians. This totally usurps the authority of your sky god after he commanded you all keep the seventh. This shows that Christians are following the commands of their mother church, the Catholic church, rather than following their own bible. Even a non-believer like myself can see this.​

​

 

[JayRob]

It seems that you reject anything that agrees with the bible no matter how logical it is.

Wrong. It's wrong to steal, kill and lie. How could I disagree with that? Be sure you know you're right then go ahead and type.

You have somehow concluded that only one organization will be found to be correct. The Church is not an organization; it is an organism.

Like I said, out of the 33,000, your denomination has a .0000303 chance of being right. It's interesting that you neglected to comment on the massive divisions in your religion. What are the odds of your denomination being right? It's less than a tenth of one percent.

Thanks a lot. Truly fascinating.

It's not surprising of the massive divisions seeing that two or three on this board alone have problems agreeing with what the bible says on random subjects.

One-quarter of the definition has to do with the supernatural; three-quarters has to do with the approach.
The atheists that I encounter actively consider American Atheists a religion with the same entitlement as Protestants, Catholics, Mormons, B'hai, Buddhists, etc. They actively recruit others to be like them with respect to the supernatural. That's religion. So, if you consider American Atheists to be in their right minds...

That merely makes them an organization, nothing more, nothing less because there's no supernatural entity involved.

The agnostics that I encounter are consistently trying to convince others to be like them toward the supernatural. That's religion.

The agnostics that you know?! And how many are they? LOL!! The fact of the matter is that you posted titles of articles that have nothing to do with what you claimed they do.

I don't know whether the AARP has a position on the supernatural. I will find out in a few years.

Well, according to your definition, they're now a religion. LOL!!

I think you need to spend some time with Buddhists.

You mentioned Agnostic Buddhists. What supernatural entity do they pray too?

Wrong again. I looked for nothing about atheists' relationship to the supernatural. The definition of atheist tells me better than that. The definition of agnostic told me that it was worth the look and I did find Agnostic Buddhists and other agnostics that refute the possibility. So, there are at least 2 denomenations of agnosticism.

You posted the atheist articles, I didn't. It's too late to deny after the fact.

If there are two denominations of agnosticism, what supernatural entity do they pray too?

 

[JayRob]

What day was it?

John 6:59
59 These things said he in the synagogue , as he taught in Capernaum.​

John 6:4 says the high holy day, the Passover was nearing, so perhaps this was on a sabbath, but there's no conclusive evidence. It's clear to speculate that this was on a sabbath because it was the custom of the Jesus character to teach in the synagogue on the sabbath.

Mercenary Pharisee of Pharisees working on the sabbath?

Acts 22:19
19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:​

What were the people doing in the synagogue? They were obviously worshipping. Nothing more, nothing less. This has not one thing to do with the seventh day sabbath being changed to a first day of the week by the Jesus character.
This Pharisee merely thought he was doing his sky god's will by persecuting whenever and wherever he could, but that didn't negate the seventh day sabbath regardless of what he was doing on that day.

Mercenary Pharisee of Pharisees working on the sabbath repeatedly?

Acts 26:11
11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue , and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.​

Again, he'd wait for the seventh day sabbath to go to the synagogue and persecute? Why? Because that's where the worshippers were on that day. If he had gone there on the first day of the week, he wouldn't have found anyone there to persecute. Can't get any clearer than that.

I strive to operate as a gentleman. I will give you yet another chance to retract that. Hint: God commands us to walk in holiness EVERY DAY.

So according to your bible humans can make something holy? You were right to laugh, cause I'm laughing too. LOL!!

Perhaps I was unclear. Where is the command to worshp on Saturday?

It's okay to divert and avoid answering simple questions about which day was sanctioned as being holy by your sky god.
Exodus 20 clearly outlines which day was sanctioned as being holy. You know in your heart that Christians have changed the seventh day to Sunday as being the holy day, but again, your vanity and pride clearly won't let you admit it publicly.

Again, this is my fault. I was unclear. Please present the verses where any of the other 11 apostles who walked with Jesus and observed the sabbath only the seventh day of the week taught their followers to observe the sabbath only on the seventh day of the week. The 11 who ate the corn on the sabbath and Jesus defended their actions. Those 11. Paul was not among them. He was a Pharisee/student at the time.

They set the example for them to follow by worshipping on the sabbath.
1 Corinthians 11:1. Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. (which day did christ observe?)
1 Peter 2:21. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
1 John 2:6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

The Christians already KNEW to obey the sabbath, so there was no need for them to be commanded. The apostles and the Jesus character showed them what to do on the seventh day sabbath and set clear examples of which day is the set aside hallowed day. It was clearly the seventh day.

Hebrews 4:4. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
4:9. There remains therefore a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God.â€￾
Peter says there remains therefore a keeping of the seventh day sabbath for the people of god.[/B]

You're doing everything you can to twist the seventh day into being "any other day" and/or the first day of the week. Just face it, your flock is setting aside the WRONG day.
You can run from your bible, but this non-believer won't let you hide from it, eventhough I could care less about most of it's doctrines.

The Exodus 20 command to keep the day holy is still in effect. Holy means to "set apart". The seventh day was the ONLY day mentioned as being holy. No other day is EVER mentioned.

This day was so important that it was a capital offense to disobey it.
For you or any so-called Christian to gloss over this commandment because you hate the commanded day is telling indeed.

If you have studied Christian history, you know that is simply not true. There are some that are derived from Catholicism. You seem to have gotten stuck with Nicea and Constantine and find it difficult to get beyond that point. There is a saying that ignorance is blissful. I beg to differ.

Where did the Protestant churches originate then? From whence did they come? The history of Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation will enlighten you if you don't already know.
Fact of the matter is that most, if not all Protestant churches had their origins via the Catholic church.​

 

[JayRob]

Yet you AND the Pharisees missed the simple understanding.

So did the Jesus character and his apostles. They obviously lacked understanding too because I'm quoting them.

 

[dacontinent]

The fourth commandment is not a ceremonial law, this has nothing to do with the subject of the sabbath. The fact of the matter is that the one person who had the authority to either change or do away with the seventh day sabbath command to keep it holy never changed anything.

Still, those were Pharisaic commands. This has nothing to do with the Jesus character changing the sabbath from the seventh day to the first day of the week and it doesn't negate the command to keep the seventh day holy.
...
Still, where's the command for the change?
...
Again, these verses have nothing to do with whether or not the seventh day was done away with by this Jesus character. You're quoting verses that talked about "specific events" that occurred on the seventh day sabbath, but you haven't posted on verse showing that the seventh day sabbath is done away.
...
Again, where is the command to do away with the seventh day sabbath by changing it to the first day of the week. Of all the verses, you still can't provide a shred of evidence where the Jesus character changed anything from Exodus 20.
...
Dude, what do you mean the sabbath wasn't about a number? It's the ONLY command that talks about a specific day of the week. If the day wasn't important, why is it mentioned in the first place? Why bother to mention to keep it (the seventh day) holy? Does your sky god say one thing while meaning another? That's exactly what you're saying when you discard the seventh day for the first day. Can man make the first day of the week holy?

And what Jew chose the seventh day? Did the Jews make up the fourth commandment? Did the Jews command a seventh day? Did the Jews command that the seventh day be kept holy or did your sky god?

With the above comments, you are totally disregarding what your sky god commanded because you want to go on doing what you're doing along with your flock. This shows that you could care less about the commandments because if you can disregard one, you disregard them all.

The Lord of the sabbath demonstrated what the sabbath was and was not about: rest (Gen 2:2). The sabbath is about a number; the number 7. It is not about a specific day of the week but about the week itself. It is mentioned because it mimicks what God did in creation and established for man's recovery. Had it meant Saturday only, even the other "ancient ignorant nomads" would have figured out that they merely needed to attack the Jews on Saturday when there would be no one to defend.

Jesus IS God. Get the memo. He came and told them that they got it wrong and showed what it was about. He did change sabbath (7); he simply explained the definition and demonstrated it. The Lord of the sabbath laid it out. Every passage that I gave you was a command for change and it ultimately divided the Pharisees on that very subject. It is right there in black and white. To wit

John 12:42-43
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.​

Sure, man can DECIDE which is the first day of the week. The Jews did. It is merely a calendar. For the Jews it is Saturday at sundown, even though the light is called day and the darkness night. For the Romans, Greeks, and Persians it was Sunday at sunrise. The US, Russia, Brazil, Portugal, Spain, France, UK, Belguim, Italy, Japan, India, Egypt, Sweden, Romania, Denmark, and the Canary Islands have all taken their stake on when the day starts and ends. In international business, the first day of the week is Monday. But, all of this hoo-ha about the calendar is not what the fourth commandment is about. The commandment is about holiness.

Where did the fourth commandment make the other 6 days less than holy days? The command is to remember to keep the seventh one holy. In other words, don't forget and lose your grip that the seventh day is ALSO holy. God was not just holy in creation on the seventh day; He was (and is holy) all of the time.

You said...

The fact that your sky god, in Exodus 20, commanded his people to keep the seventh day HOLY, should be enough evidence right there. You can't keep any other day holy other than the one your sky god commands you to.

Can't??? As in must refuse to be holy on any other day than the 7th day of the week??!! Few pagans even have such a mindset.

God commands us to be holy because He is holy (1 Peter).

So who are you and your flock seeking to please, yourselves or your sky god? From what you said, the flocks were trying to please themselves instead of following every command of their sky god. In other words, the fourth commandment is not that important.
Don't worry though because I'm not condemning you all. I actually feel the same way. It's not that important. LOL!!

The fourth commandment (and all of the others) flow from the first (Mt 22:37-40). We simply seek the intimacy made available to us. Since you don't condemn us, we would love to have you to join us. Being absorbed in the first commandment makes the fourth one almost automatic.

Every day is not the issue in discussion here, the seventh day is.
Can mankind make unholy what your sky god makes holy? Is that possible? It obviously is since the FIRST day of the week is now the "holy" day of the week for Christians. This totally usurps the authority of your sky god after he commanded you all keep the seventh. This shows that Christians are following the commands of their mother church, the Catholic church, rather than following their own bible. Even a non-believer like myself can see this.

This is the exact fallacy that the ceremonial observance of the fourth commandment by the Pharisees led the people into. This was but one of the things God exposed through the Son, the Lord of the sabbath. So, we usurp nothing. There are 7 holy days in every week. Don't miss any.

The ROMAN Catholic Church adopted the Julian calendar which had been established centuries before. Somehow you find that far-fetched. The Greeks did not and neither did the Eastern Orthodox. There are far more Protestant groups based on those than on the Catholic church.

 

[dacontinent]

Like I said, out of the 33,000, your denomination has a .0000303 chance of being right. It's interesting that you neglected to comment on the massive divisions in your religion. What are the odds of your denomination being right? It's less than a tenth of one percent.

What denomination? Anyway, it makes me glad that God does not operate on chance, probability, or statistics. Rather, he operates on the blood of His Son and on faith. Since we have them both, it seems that we have FULL ASSURANCE IN CHRIST. Yes, I LOVE it.

That merely makes them an organization, nothing more, nothing less because there's no supernatural entity involved.

If there were no supernatural entity involved, atheism and agnosticism would have no definition; there would be no need to organize and recruit about that supernatural entity.

The agnostics that you know?! And how many are they? LOL!! The fact of the matter is that you posted titles of articles that have nothing to do with what you claimed they do.
...
You posted the atheist articles, I didn't. It's too late to deny after the fact.

Several hundred. They meet locally and welcome guests. They were all nice people. You should attend a meeting with those in your area. Besides, I only posted links to articles and websites.

You mentioned Agnostic Buddhists. What supernatural entity do they pray too?
...
If there are two denominations of agnosticism, what supernatural entity do they pray too?

I don't know who they pray to. I do know who they don't claim to pray to, and that is what I seek to see changed in their lives.

Can we get back to witchcraft?

 

[Dr H..]

JR

There are Jews that worship on the Sabbath as well as other's to include SDA. However, Christian worship is outlined in the NT not the OT. There are kids in out 5 - 8 classes understand that, what's your problem?

The SDA "attempt" to hold to the OT teachings, however this is impossible because of the New Covenant and the ending of the OT Ceremonial Laws.

 

[JayRob]

The Lord of the sabbath demonstrated what the sabbath was and was not about: rest (Gen 2:2). The sabbath is about a number; the number 7. It is not about a specific day of the week but about the week itself. It is mentioned because it mimicks what God did in creation and established for man's recovery. Had it meant Saturday only, even the other "ancient ignorant nomads" would have figured out that they merely needed to attack the Jews on Saturday when there would be no one to defend.

Where's the authority to change what is holy? You keep giving out an opinion, but opinions are irrelevant. I simply asked for verses indicating from the Jesus character that the seventh day was changed.

Jesus IS God. Get the memo. He came and told them that they got it wrong and showed what it was about. He did change sabbath (7); he simply explained the definition and demonstrated it. The Lord of the sabbath laid it out. Every passage that I gave you was a command for change and it ultimately divided the Pharisees on that very subject. It is right there in black and white. To wit

John 12:42-43
42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.​

Sure, man can DECIDE which is the first day of the week. The Jews did. It is merely a calendar. For the Jews it is Saturday at sundown, even though the light is called day and the darkness night. For the Romans, Greeks, and Persians it was Sunday at sunrise. The US, Russia, Brazil, Portugal, Spain, France, UK, Belguim, Italy, Japan, India, Egypt, Sweden, Romania, Denmark, and the Canary Islands have all taken their stake on when the day starts and ends. In international business, the first day of the week is Monday. But, all of this hoo-ha about the calendar is not what the fourth commandment is about. The commandment is about holiness.

If this Jesus character is truly "god", why don't Christians follow after his example? It's okay to do good on the seventh day sabbath, which is what the Jesus character was TEACHING the Pharisees. He never taught them to change his sabbath day to any other day. That wasn't even an issue to begin with. It was a known fact that the sabbath was THE set aside day to do certain things. The examples are there for all to see.

Is it okay for so-called Christians to make the first day holy? Who gave them that authority? You still haven't provided verses showing who did. You're merely stating an opinion.

Where did the fourth commandment make the other 6 days less than holy days? The command is to remember to keep the seventh one holy. In other words, don't forget and lose your grip that the seventh day is ALSO holy. God was not just holy in creation on the seventh day; He was (and is holy) all of the time.

The commandment didn't mention any other day to set aside as holy, not one, yet you're saying to remember the seventh day BUT don't forget to set aside and hallow the other six days in the same way. That's nowhere near what the fourth commandment states. You're adding to the fourth commandment in case you didn't know.
Again, you're merely stating your own opinion. If the OT sky god wanted ALL the days to be observed the same, he wouldn't have singled out the seventh day specifically.

Deut. 5:12-15 clearly acknowledge ONLY the seventh day as being set aside for a SPECIFIC purpose. Where are the other six days mentioned?

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

You said...

Can't??? As in must refuse to be holy on any other day than the 7th day of the week??!! Few pagans even have such a mindset.
God commands us to be holy because He is holy (1 Peter).

Humans cannot MAKE something holy that's not sanctioned as being holy by the sky god. You're insulting your own sky god if you think humans can make something holy.
Can humans make the church holy? Can humans make another human holy? No and no. Only by the command of the sky god and with his blessing can something be made holy. Nowhere was the first day of the week blessed and set aside as being holy.....nowhere.
The Catholic church even admits such because their history goes back to 325 AD. No Protestant church was in existence at that time. Protestants came FROM the Catholic church IN PROTEST, but most kept the first day of the week as being their holy sabbath eventhough it was changed at the Council of Nicea.
This is basic knowledge you should've been taught in ministerial school.

The fourth commandment (and all of the others) flow from the first (Mt 22:37-40). We simply seek the intimacy made available to us. Since you don't condemn us, we would love to have you to join us. Being absorbed in the first commandment makes the fourth one almost automatic.

Again, this is nothing more than another opinion. You have many opinions, but still no verses to support the change from the seventh to the first.

The only reason I don't condemn is because I don't believe any of it to begin with because most of the bible is nonsensical to begin with. I do know the seventh day from the first day and a simple command to treat one different from the other.

This is the exact fallacy that the ceremonial observance of the fourth commandment by the Pharisees led the people into. This was but one of the things God exposed through the Son, the Lord of the sabbath. So, we usurp nothing. There are 7 holy days in every week. Don't miss any.

Again no verses, just opinion. You're singing the same old empty tune. Where is the "thus saith the sky god command" to change from the seventh to the first?

The ROMAN Catholic Church adopted the Julian calendar which had been established centuries before. Somehow you find that far-fetched. The Greeks did not and neither did the Eastern Orthodox. There are far more Protestant groups based on those than on the Catholic church.

It matters not about the calendar. The individual names of the days may have been changed, but the ORDER of the days remained the same.
The first day of the week is STILL Sunday, while the seventh day of the week is STILL called the sabbath. The Jews especially know this, seeing that they've been keeping the seventh day all along.

Your calendar excuse is irrelevant to this discussion and a weak attempt to justify the fact that Protestants are derived from the Catholic church, starting with Martin Luther. There's no evidence that most Protestants are derived from the Eastern Orthodox church. If so, post your supporting documentation.

 

[JayRob]

What denomination? Anyway, it makes me glad that God does not operate on chance, probability, or statistics. Rather, he operates on the blood of His Son and on faith. Since we have them both, it seems that we have FULL ASSURANCE IN CHRIST. Yes, I LOVE it.

It should make you cringe that there's only a .0000303 chance that your denomination (whichever it may be), is the TRUE denomination. You better hope like heck that that blood and faith is enough to overcome the outright blatant desecration of the seventh day sabbath that you and millions of others are engaged in.

If there were no supernatural entity involved, atheism and agnosticism would have no definition; there would be no need to organize and recruit about that supernatural entity.

This statement makes no sense. They simply have their beliefs. The Christian religion is organized against other religions, so does that mean that other religions don't incorporate a TRUE god? Your religion incorporates the same characteristics of Hinduism, so how can they be wrong and Christianity be right? It makes no sense at all. In fact, it's hypocritical.

Several hundred. They meet locally and welcome guests. They were all nice people. You should attend a meeting with those in your area. Besides, I only posted links to articles and websites.

I don't trust your statements for obvious reasons, so please list their websites as evidence.

I don't know who they pray to. I do know who they don't claim to pray to, and that is what I seek to see changed in their lives.

You don't know who they pray too, yet you know they're praying to a supernatural entity? That makes no sense at all. In other words, you DON'T know if they're incorporating a supernatural entity or not.

 

[JayRob]

JR

There are Jews that worship on the Sabbath as well as other's to include SDA. However, Christian worship is outlined in the NT not the OT. There are kids in out 5 - 8 classes understand that, what's your problem?

Dude, most Jews worship on the seventh day sabbath.

I keep asking and pleading with you to outline the verses showing that the seventh day was CHANGED to the first day of the week.

The fifth through eighth graders you mention only understand what they're taught by adults. If those adults are misguided and blind, those children will be misguided and blind.

The SDA "attempt" to hold to the OT teachings, however this is impossible because of the New Covenant and the ending of the OT Ceremonial Laws.

So the founder of the new covenant was the Jesus character. Where oh where did he set the example of going to the synagogue as his custom was on any other day other than the sabbath? He set an example written in stone that only incorporated the seventh day.
Where in your bible did this Jesus character EVER attend the synagogue on the first day of the week to worship? Out of the thousands and thousands of verses in the bible, show me just ONE verse showing that he set aside any other day to worship in the synagogue.

Exodus 31:16-17 says this would be the sign that those who obey belong to the sky god and were his people. If one didn't obey, they didn't belong to the sky god.

16 The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. 17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.'

If one ceases to keep the seventh day sabbath, your sky god says that they will no longer be considered as his people.

Note: According to the sky god, the fourth commandment is not a ceremonial law. If it is, then so are the other nine commandments.

 

[dacontinent]

Where's the authority to change what is holy? You keep giving out an opinion, but opinions are irrelevant. I simply asked for verses indicating from the Jesus character that the seventh day was changed.

The Lord of the sabbath - He who designed and implemented it - clearly and simply explained that they had gotten it wrong. That left the Pharisees divided between the truth and tradition. You seem to be stuck with the traditionalists. I keep giving out verses of scripture.

If this Jesus character is truly "god", why don't Christians follow after his example? It's okay to do good on the seventh day sabbath, which is what the Jesus character was TEACHING the Pharisees. He never taught them to change his sabbath day to any other day. That wasn't even an issue to begin with. It was a known fact that the sabbath was THE set aside day to do certain things. The examples are there for all to see.

Set aside to do what? By whom? Waiting for you to post the scriptures.

Now...can we please get back to witchcraft????

Is it okay for so-called Christians to make the first day holy? Who gave them that authority? You still haven't provided verses showing who did. You're merely stating an opinion.

God made EVERY day holy. Christians are responsible to keep each of them that way. ( 1 Peter, Lev 11)

The commandment didn't mention any other day to set aside as holy, not one, yet you're saying to remember the seventh day BUT don't forget to set aside and hallow the other six days in the same way. That's nowhere near what the fourth commandment states. You're adding to the fourth commandment in case you didn't know.
Again, you're merely stating your own opinion. If the OT sky god wanted ALL the days to be observed the same, he wouldn't have singled out the seventh day specifically.

Deut. 5:12-15 clearly acknowledge ONLY the seventh day as being set aside for a SPECIFIC purpose. Where are the other six days mentioned?

12 "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.
...
Humans cannot MAKE something holy that's not sanctioned as being holy by the sky god. You're insulting your own sky god if you think humans can make something holy.
Can humans make the church holy? Can humans make another human holy? No and no. Only by the command of the sky god and with his blessing can something be made holy. Nowhere was the first day of the week blessed and set aside as being holy.....nowhere.
The Catholic church even admits such because their history goes back to 325 AD. No Protestant church was in existence at that time. Protestants came FROM the Catholic church IN PROTEST, but most kept the first day of the week as being their holy sabbath eventhough it was changed at the Council of Nicea.
This is basic knowledge you should've been taught in ministerial school.

The commandment does not say to set aside the seventh day as holy. It says to KEEP it holy. It was already holy. The commandment was to not make it less than holy. JayRob does not want to get that. God never made an unholy day.

One human made the Church holy. Humans can make a church, other humans, and a day unholy. Hence, we have a commandment to not do that.

Greek and Eastern Orthodoxy are both older than Catholicism. This basic knowledge is taught to children in Sunday School.

Again, this is nothing more than another opinion. You have many opinions, but still no verses to support the change from the seventh to the first.

I didn't print those letters in red. Jesus' words, not mine. Since He is my Savior, I respect his "opinion"; you don't. I get that. Still, don't ignore the fact that I gave you His quote and not my opinion. You have been given 5 other separate and distinct passages of scripture. You rejected them as well.

The only reason I don't condemn is because I don't believe any of it to begin with because most of the bible is nonsensical to begin with. I do know the seventh day from the first day and a simple command to treat one different from the other.

While I appreciate your thoughtfullness, please be reminded that you CANNOT condemn me. You have no authority to do so.

Again no verses, just opinion. You're singing the same old empty tune. Where is the "thus saith the sky god command" to change from the seventh to the first?

Already given to and ignored by you.

It matters not about the calendar. The individual names of the days may have been changed, but the ORDER of the days remained the same.
The first day of the week is STILL Sunday, while the seventh day of the week is STILL called the sabbath. The Jews especially know this, seeing that they've been keeping the seventh day all along.

Your calendar excuse is irrelevant to this discussion and a weak attempt to justify the fact that Protestants are derived from the Catholic church, starting with Martin Luther. There's no evidence that most Protestants are derived from the Eastern Orthodox church. If so, post your supporting documentation.

Enough with opinions and calendars. Let's read the text.

Ex 20:8

8 Zaakowr 'et- yowm hashabaat lªqadªshow

The evidence is right in front of you in Hebrew. If you READ the text, then you will know why sabbath DOES NOTE mean Saturday. This is an opinion: this is the text. Deal with THE TEXT. What does it say?

 

[JayRob]

The Lord of the sabbath - He who designed and implemented it - clearly and simply explained that they had gotten it wrong. That left the Pharisees divided between the truth and tradition. You seem to be stuck with the traditionalists. I keep giving out verses of scripture.

The Jesus character was simply showing the Pharisees that it was okay to do good deeds on the sabbath. They were trying to make the sabbath a yoke of bondage. He was not trying to do away with the sabbath.

Set aside to do what? By whom? Waiting for you to post the scriptures.

Set aside to do what? Look at the examples of the Jesus character and what the apostles did on the sabbath day. They mostly went to the synagogue as was their custom. There's no need to ask me what they did.
Follow their examples if you're really into obeying EVERY word of your sky god and do what they did....on the SAME day, not a day of your own choosing.

God made EVERY day holy. Christians are responsible to keep each of them that way. ( 1 Peter, Lev 11)

Where does your bible say that EVERY day is set apart as being holy? The fourth commandment is the only day that was hallowed by your sky god. If you don't want to follow the fourth commandment, just say so. I don't follow it either, so in actuality, you're in the same boat I'm in. LOL!!

The commandment does not say to set aside the seventh day as holy. It says to KEEP it holy. It was already holy. The commandment was to not make it less than holy. JayRob does not want to get that. God never made an unholy day.

Holy means to sanctify or set apart, so the day was set apart.
Deut. 5:15 says, "Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day."

One human made the Church holy. Humans can make a church, other humans, and a day unholy. Hence, we have a commandment to not do that.

The same human made the sabbath day holy, so how can the flock make another day holy when the chief builder of the flock didn't make it holy?

Greek and Eastern Orthodoxy are both older than Catholicism. This basic knowledge is taught to children in Sunday School.

The issue is not whether one is older than the other, the issue is that Protestantism came out of the Catholic church.
This seems to be why you couldn't present any evidence showing otherwise.

I didn't print those letters in red. Jesus' words, not mine. Since He is my Savior, I respect his "opinion"; you don't. I get that. Still, don't ignore the fact that I gave you His quote and not my opinion. You have been given 5 other separate and distinct passages of scripture. You rejected them as well.

All I asked you to do is present one direct command made by the Jesus character showing that the seventh day was changed by him to the first day.

While I appreciate your thoughtfullness, please be reminded that you CANNOT condemn me. You have no authority to do so.

I don't need to condemn you. If you're breaking the fourth commandment, according to your sky god, you're automatically condemning yourself, without my help.

Already given to and ignored by you.

Not true at all. You presented no scripture showing a change from the seventh to the first.
History clearly shows that the Roman Catholic church changed the day from the seventh to the first at the Council of Nicea. Why you don't want to admit such is quite obvious.

Enough with opinions and calendars. Let's read the text.

Ex 20:8
8 Zaakowr 'et- yowm hashabaat lªqadªshow
The evidence is right in front of you in Hebrew. If you READ the text, then you will know why sabbath DOES NOTE mean Saturday. This is an opinion: this is the text. Deal with THE TEXT. What does it say?

I know what "sabbath" means. It means "rest". I also know what seventh means. It' means the seventh day of the week. LOL!!
You're doing everything you can to ignore the fact that the sabbath is still to be observed by commandment keepers on the seventh day of the week.

No resurrection authorizes the day to be changed. No Jesus authorized the day to be changed. No apostlie was given the authority to change the day. It's as simple as that. It's the seventh day and no other.

 

[dacontinent]

Set aside to do what? Look at the examples of the Jesus character and what the apostles did on the sabbath day. They mostly went to the synagogue as was their custom. There's no need to ask me what they did.
Follow their examples if you're really into obeying EVERY word of your sky god and do what they did....on the SAME day, not a day of your own choosing.
...
I know what "sabbath" means. It means "rest". I also know what seventh means. It' means the seventh day of the week. LOL!!
You're doing everything you can to ignore the fact that the sabbath is still to be observed by commandment keepers on the seventh day of the week.

Custom does not equal command. Since you know that sabbath means rest, then you also know that there is no number given in the fourth commandment. You knew that when you said..

The commandment didn't mention any other day to set aside as holy, not one, yet you're saying to remember the seventh day BUT don't forget to set aside and hallow the other six days in the same way. That's nowhere near what the fourth commandment states. You're adding to the fourth commandment in case you didn't know.
Again, you're merely stating your own opinion. If the OT sky god wanted ALL the days to be observed the same, he wouldn't have singled out the seventh day specifically.

The truth is now evident that JayRob added to the fourth commandment; that God did not single out the seventh day of the week. The truth is that the Jews (not God) chose to observe the seventh day of the week for corporate gathering when they could have chosen any day of the week and kept the seven day cycle. The truth is that Jesus, being a Jew, kept the custom of gathering with the Jews.

Where does your bible say that EVERY day is set apart as being holy? The fourth commandment is the only day that was hallowed by your sky god. If you don't want to follow the fourth commandment, just say so. I don't follow it either, so in actuality, you're in the same boat I'm in. LOL!!

Apparently you did not read the references that I gave you. Here are some more:

• Heb 12:14
• Lev 21:6

If the people themselves were commanded to be holy, that makes the day that they are in holy as well. The point is simply this: God commanded his people to be holy and never commanded them to be anything less than holy. Is that the truth, JayRob?

Holy means to sanctify or set apart, so the day was set apart.
Deut. 5:15 says, "Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day."

Please look up the wordsholy and sanctify and share with your audience why holy does not mean to sanctify or set apart.

Holy means to sanctify or set apart, so the day was set apart.
Deut. 5:15 says, "Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day."

As you know and have stated: the sabbath, as defined in the fourth commandment, is a day of rest without a number for the weekly calendar. LOL!

The issue is not whether one is older than the other, the issue is that Protestantism came out of the Catholic church.
This seems to be why you couldn't present any evidence showing otherwise.

You, sir, are confusing Protestantism with the Protestant Reformation as incited by Martin Luther. They ARE NOT the same.

All I asked you to do is present one direct command made by the Jesus character showing that the seventh day was changed by him to the first day.

As you stated, sabbath means rest and does not mean seventh. You know there was never a command for the seventh day of the week, so your request is nonsensical. As I have stated repeatedly, he corrected the foolishness while keeping the custom.

Not true at all. You presented no scripture showing a change from the seventh to the first.
History clearly shows that the Roman Catholic church changed the day from the seventh to the first at the Council of Nicea. Why you don't want to admit such is quite obvious.

History shows that the Roman Catholic church made a choice of the first day of the week for its CUSTOM. The orthodox churches made that choice 300 years prior and didn't need a council to do it.

 

[dacontinent]

Are we getting back to witchcraft anytime soon?

 

[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

No, you don't have to believe in withcraft to be a Christian. A Christian SHOULD believe that there are witches and witchcraft; that there are people and practices thereof; and that rebellion can take you there.

Christians don't have to believe in evil in order for it to exist.

I concure..

To the broader concern of this thread:

As Christians, we must view all things in view of eternity and not get sidetracked with temporal events or past judgments, which are only shadows and pictures of things to come or things that are in Heaven.

All sin is punishable by DEATH. I repeat, “All sin is punishable by death”.

Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

God is a Just and Holy God. He will not let sin go unpunished; to do so would prove Him to be unrighteous, unjust and unholy.

Exodus 34:7. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

The Jews from Moses through the Cross were under a theocracy. They were ruled by the law of God, not by man's law or a democracy. Under God's rule many sins were punishable by death, which reflects God’s true hatred of sin. This has not change, God still hate sin and will eventually put to death all sin and sinners. The Jews proved to themselves that even under the rule of God no man is faithful or can fulfill God requirement of perfection. This exercise was God way of showing the Jews His righteousness and their (all men) inability to meet it; more so, God was showing man that He needed a savior. Thus, God provided a solution, the perfect sacrifice, His Son.

Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

God laid all of the sins of His elect on His Son, rejected His Son, (punished) put to death His Son to satisfy His Just punishment for sin (death). No human righteousness is acceptable before God, only those who have Christ as their righteousness (substitute) will find peace with God and a place with Him in eternity.

All that has been tarnish by sin must die and in the end even death will be destroyed. So for those who are truly saved by God’s substitute, the second death will have no sting (there will be no second death).

2 Peter 3:13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

1 Corinthians 15:55-57. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?. The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Reflecting back on the witch and putting witches to death. Those were days of shadows and pictures letting us know the Hatred God has for sin and our inability to please Him. All of that pointed to our need for a substitute that was revealed by Christ. We have knowledge of the savior and His sacrifice proves God hatred for Sin. We are no longer under a theocracy and we need no reminder of God Hatred for sin.

So if you or a Jew encounter a witch, treat her (or him) as the law of man requires; better yet, if you have been saved by God’s substitute, introduce the gospel to the witch (I would personally recommend that you flee). Let us not be confused, God hates us as well as the witch. Only those having accepted God’s Substitute (His Son) for righteousness will escape the death we all so truly deserve and only through God’s appointed substitute can God find cause to Love us.

Good Day and God Bless

 

[JayRob]

Custom does not equal command. Since you know that sabbath means rest, then you also know that there is no number given in the fourth commandment. You knew that when you said..

Command or custom, you're still obligated to follow after the example set by your god Jesus aren't you? I guess that doesn't matter when it comes to the seventh day versus the first day.

There is no number given in the fourth commandment? Exodus 20:8-10 clearly says otherwise. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.
Continue to remain in denial if that helps you. Even a non-believer like myself knows this much about the seventh day sabbath.

The truth is now evident that JayRob added to the fourth commandment; that God did not single out the seventh day of the week. The truth is that the Jews (not God) chose to observe the seventh day of the week for corporate gathering when they could have chosen any day of the week and kept the seven day cycle. The truth is that Jesus, being a Jew, kept the custom of gathering with the Jews.

So the Jews gave Moses the fourth commandment and not your sky god? Dude, you're not making any sense at all and you are in total denial. The fourth commandment clearly mentions the seventh day. Your sky god clearly stated that it was a sabbath unto him, meaning that it was a day dedicated specifically to him and him alone. When folks change it to another day, they're dishonoring their sky god and doing their own thing. You are doing so and are teaching others to do so as others have taught you.

Apparently you did not read the references that I gave you. Here are some more:

• Heb 12:14
• Lev 21:6

If the people themselves were commanded to be holy, that makes the day that they are in holy as well. The point is simply this: God commanded his people to be holy and never commanded them to be anything less than holy. Is that the truth, JayRob?

Dude, those verses say not one thing about a day being holy. It merely commands the individual person to set himself apart from the world. Holy means to "set apart". Those verses have nothing to do with any day being set apart. You're really reaching right now.

Please look up the words holy and sanctify and share with your audience why holy does not mean to sanctify or set apart.

Holy means "consecrated: dedicated or set apart for religious purposes"
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861618365_1861618365/nextpage.html

As you know and have stated: the sabbath, as defined in the fourth commandment, is a day of rest without a number for the weekly calendar. LOL!

If you would look up the Deut. 5:13-14, you'd see that you're mistaken. I only quoted verse 12 above. Here are verses 13-14....."Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God."
If you say that the term "seventh" is not in the above verses, then I KNOW you're in denial.

You, sir, are confusing Protestantism with the Protestant Reformation as incited by Martin Luther. They ARE NOT the same.

Most denominations are derived from the Catholic church. It matters not what it's called. Can you show that Protestantism didn't come from Catholicism? Present your evidence.

Here's mine: "Protestantism is one of the four major divisions within Christianity (or five, if Anglicanism is considered separately) together with the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox Churches, and the Roman Catholic Church. The term (Protestantism) is most closely tied to those groups that separated from the Roman Catholic Church in the sixteenth-century Protestant Reformation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism

As you stated, sabbath means rest and does not mean seventh. You know there was never a command for the seventh day of the week, so your request is nonsensical. As I have stated repeatedly, he corrected the foolishness while keeping the custom.

Exodus 20:8-10 clearly says otherwise. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.
Seventh AND sabbath are in the same command. How can that be so difficult for you to comprehend? It really shouldn't be unless you just don't want to have to admit that you've been observing the wrong day for all these years. There's no harm in having to repent before your sky god and admit and change is there? LOL!!

History shows that the Roman Catholic church made a choice of the first day of the week for its CUSTOM. The orthodox churches made that choice 300 years prior and didn't need a council to do it.

So what? The fact of the matter is that Protestantism came primarily from Catholicism.
They called it a mere custom, but your sky god gave it as a commandment didn't he? Well, didn't he?

I see you don't mind trivializing and watering down one of the commandments given by your sky god. By abelling an outright commandment as a mere custom, that's exactly what you and many others are doing.

What this tells an unbeliever like myself that you and others could care less about any seventh day sabbath commandment. If you REALLY cared, you'd be doing everything you could to correct yourself and you'd be thanking me for showing you where you were wrong. Instead, you want to go on breaking a commandment.

Don't worry though, I don't observe the day either and my conscience isn't bothered one bit as it seems that yours isn't either. LOL!!

 

[dacontinent]

Command or custom, you're still obligated to follow after the example set by your god Jesus aren't you? I guess that doesn't matter when it comes to the seventh day versus the first day.

There is no number given in the fourth commandment? Exodus 20:8-10 clearly says otherwise. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.
Continue to remain in denial if that helps you. Even a non-believer like myself knows this much about the seventh day sabbath.

So the Jews gave Moses the fourth commandment and not your sky god? Dude, you're not making any sense at all and you are in total denial. The fourth commandment clearly mentions the seventh day. Your sky god clearly stated that it was a sabbath unto him, meaning that it was a day dedicated specifically to him and him alone. When folks change it to another day, they're dishonoring their sky god and doing their own thing. You are doing so and are teaching others to do so as others have taught you.

If you would look up the Deut. 5:13-14, you'd see that you're mistaken. I only quoted verse 12 above. Here are verses 13-14....."Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God."
If you say that the term "seventh" is not in the above verses, then I KNOW you're in denial.

Exodus 20:8-10 clearly says otherwise. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.
Seventh AND sabbath are in the same command. How can that be so difficult for you to comprehend? It really shouldn't be unless you just don't want to have to admit that you've been observing the wrong day for all these years. There's no harm in having to repent before your sky god and admit and change is there? LOL!!

What this tells an unbeliever like myself that you and others could care less about any seventh day sabbath commandment. If you REALLY cared, you'd be doing everything you could to correct yourself and you'd be thanking me for showing you where you were wrong. Instead, you want to go on breaking a commandment.

Don't worry though, I don't observe the day either and my conscience isn't bothered one bit as it seems that yours isn't either. LOL!!

You would have made a fantastic Pharisee.

I am planning a cross country trip I will be driving and making day trips for six days. On the seventh day, I will arrive in Seattle. I am leaving on a Thursday. The seventh day will be Wednesday. It is really that simple.

It's that kind of thing that the Lord of the sabbath explained and demonstrated about the sabbath. We get it. New believers get it. We who believe Him follow His example. You and unbelievers like you don't follow His example. You're comfortable with that. We understand.

Dude, those verses say not one thing about a day being holy. It merely commands the individual person to set himself apart from the world. Holy means to "set apart". Those verses have nothing to do with any day being set apart. You're really reaching right now.

Holy means "consecrated: dedicated or set apart for religious purposes"
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861618365_1861618365/nextpage.html

As I have explained repeatedly, if I am to be holy, then so is my day.

ho·ly
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): ho·li·er; ho·li·est
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hālig; akin to Old English hāl whole — more at whole
Date: before 12th century
1 : exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2 : divine <for the Lord our God is holy — Psalms 99:9(Authorized Version)>
3 : devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity <a holy temple> <holy prophets>
4 a : having a divine quality <holy love> b : venerated as or as if sacred <holy scripture> <a holy relic>
5 —used as an intensive <this is a holy mess> <he was a holy terror when he drank — Thomas Wolfe> ; often used in combination as a mild oath <holy smoke>

Sanctification is the process through which holiness is reached. We did not have to make it holy through sanctification. It came to us that way. Like when your parents buy you the first new suit. They didn't tell you to go and wash it; they say "do not get it dirty". The command was not to sanctify the day. The day was already holy. The command was to KEEP it holy.

Most denominations are derived from the Catholic church. It matters not what it's called. Can you show that Protestantism didn't come from Catholicism? Present your evidence.

I already did that by reminding you that Protestantism existed BEFORE Catholicism.

 

[JayRob]

You would have made a fantastic Pharisee.

I am planning a cross country trip I will be driving and making day trips for six days. On the seventh day, I will arrive in Seattle. I am leaving on a Thursday. The seventh day will be Wednesday. It is really that simple.

It's that kind of thing that the Lord of the sabbath explained and demonstrated about the sabbath. We get it. New believers get it. We who believe Him follow His example. You and unbelievers like you don't follow His example. You're comfortable with that. We understand.


As I have explained repeatedly, if I am to be holy, then so is my day.

ho·ly
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): ho·li·er; ho·li·est
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English hālig; akin to Old English hāl whole — more at whole
Date: before 12th century
1 : exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness
2 : divine <for the Lord our God is holy — Psalms 99:9(Authorized Version)>
3 : devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity <a holy temple> <holy prophets>
4 a : having a divine quality <holy love> b : venerated as or as if sacred <holy scripture> <a holy relic>
5 —used as an intensive <this is a holy mess> <he was a holy terror when he drank — Thomas Wolfe> ; often used in combination as a mild oath <holy smoke>

Sanctification is the process through which holiness is reached. We did not have to make it holy through sanctification. It came to us that way. Like when your parents buy you the first new suit. They didn't tell you to go and wash it; they say "do not get it dirty". The command was not to sanctify the day. The day was already holy. The command was to KEEP it holy.


I already did that by reminding you that Protestantism existed BEFORE Catholicism.

--That deduction won't fly because in Genesis 1, the OT god clearly stated what day would be the sabbath. It was day 7 of the fictional creation week.
You put all the verses together, you'll come up with the seventh day, no matter how hard you try to do away with it.

--The Jesus character never changed the day from the seventh to the first day of the week. He also set the exact example he wanted his followers to follow on that day. As a matter of fact, he presented several examples of what he did on the sabbath so much to the point that one would have to practically rewrite the entire new testament in order to get around the fact that he observed a seventh day sabbath.
Most Christians today are observing a completely different day and are thus violating one of the most important commandments of their sky god.
Their leaders are to blame for such hypocrisy. This goes to show that when the blind lead the blind, they all fall into the ditch.

--What do you want me to do about the definition I presented from a valid source? It clearly gave the definition of the word "holy".
I continue to show you from your own book that the seventh day sabbath is valid and why it was valid in worshipping the Christian god.
In spite of my efforts to educate you, you continue to choose to wallow in outright denial. I've shown you verse after verse that clearly show what day your sky god commanded his followers to observe.
The Jews know this quite well, but Christians seem to be lead by the nose by the Catholic church and their traditions.

--Your sanctification example means nothing. It's neither supported by verses neither is it supported by logic.
If he was real, the OT sky god would be very disappointed in your interpretation of which day is his sabbath day, especially in light of the fact that a non-believer has to school you on basic Christian doctrine.
If he was real, he'd be shaking his head in shame and disappointment.

--Protestantism existed before the Catholic church?! LOL!!! Dude, you're just making up anything and it's really making you look quite dishonest and/or weak-minded in intellect.
There was no such thing as Protestantism before the Catholic church.
Even when I present credible evidence in black and white, you STILL choose to gloss over it rather than honesty admit it. It never ceases to amaze me anymore though. LOL!!

Show me where Protestantism was present before the Catholic church.

 

[JayRob]

You're being irrational. You cite the verse and then deny what it says. Just for the record, let's look at it again.

Deut 18:9-12

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.​

Among you => Jews. Like I said in my earlier post, the law of the land would change when control of the land changed. You may drink/smoke/abuse drugs in your home or in public, but you won't do that in my home. So, if other peoples remained in the land after being conquered by the Jews, those would be subject to Jewish law. Driving the conquered people groups from the land was just as important for those groups as it was for the Jews.

Why would the abominations have to be learned? Because they were things not practiced by the Jews. Examples of abominations are given so they are clearly understood.

In every society abominable crimes were dealt with by capital punishment. In some societies lying is capital crime under certain conditions. Capital crimes differ from one society to the next. You and I don't have to agree wit them; we do have to respect them.

If the old testament sky god didn't want his people to follow after the customs of cultures who had been in the area hundreds and hundreds of years before the Israelites arrived, WHY.....WHY did he take them and drop them off right next to those people? That was ignorant and not well thought out to begin with?
If the Israelite story was true, in essence, the sky god was setting his own people up to fail, while the other cultures continued on. According to the bible, the Israelite god killed off his own people, while the gods of other cultures allowed their people to live. Who in their right mind would want to even consider following such a god with such a history of mass violence?

If he KNEW the inhabitants of the land were practicing withcraft and other practices he didn't approve of, it was not very smart to put his people in that predicament to begin with.

 

[dacontinent]

If the old testament sky god didn't want his people to follow after the customs of cultures who had been in the area hundreds and hundreds of years before the Israelites arrived, WHY.....WHY did he take them and drop them off right next to those people? That was ignorant and not well thought out to begin with?
If the Israelite story was true, in essence, the sky god was setting his own people up to fail, while the other cultures continued on. According to the bible, the Israelite god killed off his own people, while the gods of other cultures allowed their people to live. Who in their right mind would want to even consider following such a god with such a history of mass violence?

If he KNEW the inhabitants of the land were practicing withcraft and other practices he didn't approve of, it was not very smart to put his people in that predicament to begin with.

Encountering people of opposing beliefs is unavoidable. That is one of the reasons why you instruct your followers the way that you do. Certainly the God that JayRob does not believe was not ignorant and was thinking rather clearly. It would have been unthinkable to not instruct the people and have them to walk into those encounters unprepared.

Like always, God sets up his people for success. Even the simple-minded can see that pattern in one situation after the other and without exception. He knew the inhabitants of the land practiced witchcraft. He prepared them to be able to encounter it and win.

 

[JayRob]

Encountering people of opposing beliefs is unavoidable. That is one of the reasons why you instruct your followers the way that you do. Certainly the God that JayRob does not believe was not ignorant and was thinking rather clearly. It would have been unthinkable to not instruct the people and have them to walk into those encounters unprepared.

Like always, God sets up his people for success. Even the simple-minded can see that pattern in one situation after the other and without exception. He knew the inhabitants of the land practiced witchcraft. He prepared them to be able to encounter it and win.

Your sky god had the entire lands of the Sinai desert to relocate his people, yet, he dropped them right off in the middle of cultures with several different gods, several diverse practices and beautiful women.
It seems that this sky god thought that his mere words were powerful enough to get the job done. Its quite obvious that his words didn't hold much water because the people didn't listen to him.

When they didn't listen to him, he obviously lost it, and ordered the killing of thousands and thousands of his own people.

On one occasion, in 1Chron. 13, he ordered the deaths of 500,000 of his own people. Imagine the bloody massacre and mass graves.

In Numbers 14, when the Israelites complained that their violent sky was killing too many of them, he killed 14,000 more of them. LOL!! WOW!!
I guess this is setting his people up to succeed, by killing them.

In 1Samuel 6, the OT god killed 50,000 more of his OWN people again for merely being curious about an ark.

I could go on and on about the violent nature of this OT sky god. After he virtually tries to wipe out other cultures including his own people, he decides to come back as the gentle, meek and mild Jesus.

This is the total opposite of the sky god mentioned in the OT. He was nothing like the bloodthirsty OT god. He had a completely different outlook. He focused on "love and forgiveness", while the OT god didn't seem to know the meaning of either. Why is this?
How do you explain such a frastic change in nature and philosophy?

 

[dacontinent]

Your sky god had the entire lands of the Sinai desert to relocate his people, yet, he dropped them right off in the middle of cultures with several different gods, several diverse practices and beautiful women.
It seems that this sky god thought that his mere words were powerful enough to get the job done. Its quite obvious that his words didn't hold much water because the people didn't listen to him.

When they didn't listen to him, he obviously lost it, and ordered the killing of thousands and thousands of his own people.

On one occasion, in 1Chron. 13, he ordered the deaths of 500,000 of his own people. Imagine the bloody massacre and mass graves.

In Numbers 14, when the Israelites complained that their violent sky was killing too many of them, he killed 14,000 more of them. LOL!! WOW!!
I guess this is setting his people up to succeed, by killing them.

In 1Samuel 6, the OT god killed 50,000 more of his OWN people again for merely being curious about an ark.

I could go on and on about the violent nature of this OT sky god. After he virtually tries to wipe out other cultures including his own people, he decides to come back as the gentle, meek and mild Jesus.

This is the total opposite of the sky god mentioned in the OT. He was nothing like the bloodthirsty OT god. He had a completely different outlook. He focused on "love and forgiveness", while the OT god didn't seem to know the meaning of either. Why is this?
How do you explain such a frastic change in nature and philosophy?

Uzza's was the only deathh in 1 Chron 13. It occurred when he mishandled the ark, which was not supposed to be carried on a cart in the first place.

Numbers 14 is about the people's response to the report of the spies who were sent into the land of Canaan. Only the spies who came with the bad report died there.

In 1 Samuel 6, the men of Bethshemesh died for a whole lot more than mere curiosity.

There is no change in God's nature or philosophy. He still requires holiness. Just ask Ananias and Sapphira, Paul, Peter,...

Sorry. You won't get a chance to talk to them.

Ask Satan, Pharoah, and Alexander the coppersmith.

 

[JayRob]

Uzza's was the only deathh in 1 Chron 13. It occurred when he mishandled the ark, which was not supposed to be carried on a cart in the first place.

Dacon, you remind me of a dedicated mother who has a son on death row due to multiple murders, yet she has complete confidence that he's a good person no matter what he does.

In all actuality, I meant to quote 2 Chronicles 13 where 500,000 died. Even when one isn't searching for death in other chapters, you find it in chpater 12.

In chapter 13, couldn't this all powerful god, in all of his wisdom, have prevented the casualties? Couldn't this OT god have orchestrated another way to solve the tension instead of wiping out half a million?
Because the people decided not to bow down to him, the next best thing for him was to kill them off. Where's the love and forgiveness?

Numbers 14 is about the people's response to the report of the spies who were sent into the land of Canaan. Only the spies who came with the bad report died there.

Dacon, in Numbers 16:41-49, thousands and thousands were murdered by the biblical sky god and this against HIS own chosen people.
Verse 49: "Now they that died in the plague were fourteen thousand and seven hundred, beside them that died about the matter of Korah".
Not even the pagan gods could rival such violence.

If he'd do this to his own people, one can only imagine the violence he could muster up against those he didn't choose.
I'm sure you'll conjure up an excuse to justify violence against them too.

In 1 Samuel 6, the men of Bethshemesh died for a whole lot more than mere curiosity.

What else did they die for?

There is no change in God's nature or philosophy. He still requires holiness. Just ask Ananias and Sapphira, Paul, Peter,...

Where did this Jesus character order the deaths of thousands upon thousands other than in the book of Revelation?
Galatians 5 speaks about love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness and kindness. These characteristics are almost total opposites of the OT sky god.

The NT authors clearly wanted to distance themselves from the OT stories of violence, murder, rape, torture, slavery and the like so what did they do?
They created a story of love and forgiveness for ALL peoples to have a part in, not just for a group of Hebrews.

The Jesus authors spoke about turning the other cheek, not killing off their enemies by the thousands. This is a totally different philosophy than the OT god. Anyone who has a shred of objectivity and honesty will freely admit this much.

The violence of the OT is so evil, that even the OT god's own people complained that they were being killed off. Eventually, most of them were killed off, leaving only a remnant.

Not until the book of Revelations can such violence compare to the violence and bloodthirstiness mentioned in the OT.
This Jesus character does make up for lost time though by practically ordering the death of 90 percent of all humans in Revelation with the bowls, trumpets and plagues. In the final chapter or so, he goes on to order the eternal burning of humans in an everlasting hellfire.
So in essence, you're right in the END by saying that the philosophy of the NT god is no different than the philosophy of the OT god.
Both eventually destroy all of mankind. One did it with water by drowning thousands upon thousands, while the other promises to kill off billions by fire.

Thank goodness these are no more than fictional mythical stories and gods made up by ignorant tribesmen and men who craved power and control over the masses. They didn't hesitate to use the fear of an eternal burning in a hell fire, stolen from other religions for the purpose of scaring people into obedience.

 

[dacontinent]

JayRob, thanks for the compliment ... but you need to get you citations correct: 1 Chron 13 vs 2 Chron 13; Num 14 vs Num 16. I did not bring them up; you did. So, let's look at them.

Yes, God, in His wisdom, took steps to prevent casualties in 2 Chron 13. Abijah gave an entire discourse to Jeroboam to remind him that his challenge would be against God and not against Judah. Jeroboam didn't listen and it cost hundreds of thousands their lives. The love and forgiveness was offered but refused ... just like now.

As for Number 16, the people did it to themselves. First there was Korah and his crew - Levites who demanded to be priests, as though they could appoint themselves. The stage was set so that all of Israel could see the consequences. Korah and crew got swallowed up for their contempt. Then, after witnessing what happened to Korah, others in the congregation went into contempt. Thankfully, Moses and Aaron interceded and on 14,000 died. That is like knowing that Three Mile Island or Chernobyl is melting down and just walking in without any protection but blaming those deaths on the meltdown.

Don't get it twisted. God has wrath like no other. Like Jeroboam, you and I are offered the opportunity to recognize the awesome power of God and avoid that wrath. We are in that period of time right now. Eschatology tells us that the carnage of that wrath will be pervasive. So, let's heed the warning instead of being stupid.

Galatians tells us of the fruit of the Spirit. Fruit is meant to provided nourishment, sustanence, and pleasure for the living and those who want to live. My suggestion is that we choose to live and enjoy that fruit.

God will not destroy all of mankind. There will be innumerable humans in heaven and earth for eternity. It is up to the humans to decide whether they want to endure the wrath or eat the fruit. There is no reason to be scared. Just make a logical decision. Moses put it this way.

Deut 30:19-31:1

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life , that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. KJV​

 

[JayRob]

JayRob, thanks for the compliment ... but you need to get you citations correct: 1 Chron 13 vs 2 Chron 13; Num 14 vs Num 16. I did not bring them up; you did. So, let's look at them.

Those were mere precursors to the more egregious evils committed by the OT sky god.

Yes, God, in His wisdom, took steps to prevent casualties in 2 Chron 13. Abijah gave an entire discourse to Jeroboam to remind him that his challenge would be against God and not against Judah. Jeroboam didn't listen and it cost hundreds of thousands their lives. The love and forgiveness was offered but refused ... just like now.

Continue to blame the hundreds of thousands of dead victims if that helps you love this god anymore. If this god was a proponent of Galatians 5, he wouldn't have caused the deaths of so many.

As for Number 16, the people did it to themselves. First there was Korah and his crew - Levites who demanded to be priests, as though they could appoint themselves. The stage was set so that all of Israel could see the consequences. Korah and crew got swallowed up for their contempt. Then, after witnessing what happened to Korah, others in the congregation went into contempt. Thankfully, Moses and Aaron interceded and on 14,000 died. That is like knowing that Three Mile Island or Chernobyl is melting down and just walking in without any protection but blaming those deaths on the meltdown.

So your OT god, in all of his wisdom couldn't find a better way to solve the issues peacefully rather than killing folks again and again and again?!
Sounds like a lover of blood to me. There seemed to be no end to the lengths he will go to kill off more and more folks by commanding them to do the impossible.

Don't get it twisted. God has wrath like no other. Like Jeroboam, you and I are offered the opportunity to recognize the awesome power of God and avoid that wrath. We are in that period of time right now. Eschatology tells us that the carnage of that wrath will be pervasive. So, let's heed the warning instead of being stupid.

The OT god has uncontrollable anger like no other. Out of all the gods studied from other religions, I've never come across one who has more blood on his hands than the one mentioned in the OT.
The proof is the fact that he killed off 90 percent of his own people and drove the remaining survivors into captivity.
If the stories were halfway real, this is exactly what most present day Christians have to look forward too, especially if he claims to be the same yesterday, today and forever. If he was bloodthirsty back then, he still bloodthirsty today.
If there are one billion Christians in the world, yet 90 percent of humanity are prophesied to die in Revelation, this means that the majority of Christians are scheduled to die. Most don't even realize this.

Galatians tells us of the fruit of the Spirit. Fruit is meant to provided nourishment, sustanence, and pleasure for the living and those who want to live. My suggestion is that we choose to live and enjoy that fruit.

Galatians 5 is obviously referring to a different spirit based on the OT writings.
Any sane person reading the OT would be insane to account the characteristics of love, joy, peace and longsuffering to the OT sky god.

God will not destroy all of mankind. There will be innumerable humans in heaven and earth for eternity. It is up to the humans to decide whether they want to endure the wrath or eat the fruit. There is no reason to be scared. Just make a logical decision. Moses put it this way.

No, he's promised to kill off 9 out of 10 people that's all. No big deal though cause 10 percent will still be alive. What more can you ask for? LOL!!
Thank goodness such nonsense is pure fiction.

Deut 30:19-31:1

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life , that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.​

Having to put up with such a god, the chosen were probably better off dead than having to put up with the psychotic commands and demands of such a god. The OT god agrees with me because he actually did away with 90 percent of his people, while driving the other 10 percent into captivity.
If the OT god was actually sitting in judgement of most Christians today, as he did to the ancient Israelites, 95 plus percent of them would be dead because much their behaviors is no different than the behaviors displayed by the Israelites that were killed off.

Simply put, the OT god is the most bloodthirsty god known to man. He killed off 99 percent of humanity once before via the flood. This included innocent babies and children and innocent animals having nothing to do with sin.
He promises to do it again by killing off five billion or more before it's over with through fire. What a loving thing to do.

Again I say, thank goodness that such a character never existed, never will exist and will remain a fictional character stuck in a book full of errors, unfulfilled prophecies, historical inconsistencies, unscientific jargon, violence, death, rape, slavery and plagiarized material. Real truth and freedom is to know this. ​