To be a Christian do you have to believe in witchcraft?

[bigmanofds]

Exodus 22:18

Thou shalt not suffer a WITCH to live.

Deuteronomy 18:10

There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a WITCH,

I Samuel 15:23

For rebellion is as the sin of WITCHCRAFT, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.


II Kings 9:22

And it came to pass, when Joram saw Jehu, that he said, Is it peace, Jehu? And he answered, What peace, so long as the whoredoms of thy mother Jezebel and her WITCHCRAFT are so many?


Acts 8:9

But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and beWITCHED the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:


There are more but I think you get my point. This was brought to my attention after watching a PBS Documentary on the Salem Witch Trials. In those time they killed people for being a witch because they thought the bible instructed them to do so.

 

[dacontinent]

No, you don't have to believe in withcraft to be a Christian. A Christian SHOULD believe that there are witches and witchcraft; that there are people and practices thereof; and that rebellion can take you there.

Christians don't have to believe in evil in order for it to exist.

 

[Tiger1]

To be a Christian do you have to believe in witchcraft?

Wow!!! :retard:

 

[bigmanofds]

Wow!!! :retard:

Why did you said “wow”?

 

[bigmanofds]

No, you don't have to believe in withcraft to be a Christian. A Christian SHOULD believe that there are witches and witchcraft; that there are people and practices thereof; and that rebellion can take you there.

Christians don't have to believe in evil in order for it to exist.

If a Christian should believe in witches and witchcraft, so what is a witch? How do you know when you see one? Exodus 22:18 states you suppose to kill it.

 

[dacontinent]

If a Christian should believe in witches and witchcraft, so what is a witch? How do you know when you see one? Exodus 22:18 states you suppose to kill it.

1. A witch is a person who practices witchcraft.
2. Like anything else you would need to study witchcraft.
3. Remember that if both you and the witch are not Jews, then the command to kill the witch does not apply to you or the witch.

 

[JayRob]

1. A witch is a person who practices witchcraft.
2. Like anything else you would need to study witchcraft.
3. Remember that if both you and the witch are not Jews, then the command to kill the witch does not apply to you or the witch.

So Jews have the right to kill humans if they're witches?!

 

[bigmanofds]

1. A witch is a person who practices witchcraft.
2. Like anything else you would need to study witchcraft.
3. Remember that if both you and the witch are not Jews, then the command to kill the witch does not apply to you or the witch.

This is not an indictment on you. I thought more then just you would have responded. My wife wanted to ask her pastor but I like to have more than just one persons opinion. I like to thank you for your response.

I only read the King James Version of the Bible. The word “witchâ€￾ appears 11 times in 11 verses. In those 11 verses I did not see anything being a or not being a Jew. Also, in those 11 verses there is nothing about what is witchcraft, only the existence of witches and witchcraft. If I go outside the Bible to research witchcraft, with so much out there I could possibly find information that will say that a Las Vegas entertainer could be a witch. Some people find evil in Harry Potter. Again I am hoping more than just you will have a biblical perspective.

 

[dacontinent]

This is not an indictment on you. I thought more then just you would have responded. My wife wanted to ask her pastor but I like to have more than just one persons opinion. I like to thank you for your response.

I only read the King James Version of the Bible. The word “witchâ€￾ appears 11 times in 11 verses. In those 11 verses I did not see anything being a or not being a Jew. Also, in those 11 verses there is nothing about what is witchcraft, only the existence of witches and witchcraft. If I go outside the Bible to research witchcraft, with so much out there I could possibly find information that will say that a Las Vegas entertainer could be a witch. Some people find evil in Harry Potter. Again I am hoping more than just you will have a biblical perspective.

I appreciate your position. What you have to remember when you the instructions that were given to the Jews in Exodus is that that unless they mentioned foreigners/strangers/visitor/etc, they applied to the Jews. These people were venturing into the lands of people that were completely different from them. They had to know how to conduct themselves both among themselves and among other peoples. Witchcraft (curses, sorcery, worship of other gods, divination, etc) was not to be practiced by the Jews. Hence, a Jew caught in such practice was to be killed by the Jews. Other people groups who practiced pagan religions were thoroughly englufed in such practices. The Jews had no jurisdiction over those people. They were, themselves nomads. They could not establish laws by geographical boundaries at the time of this instruction. They could enforce it among themselves and that was their instruction. Once their geographical boundaries and government were installed in Canaan, they could enforce the same within their boundaries.

This might not be the best analogy, but it is kind of like when US troops are based in a foreign country on land that is not considered to be sovereign US territory. There is military code for how things are to proceed, but if laws of that land are broken and a soldier is charged, that soldier is subject to the process that governs that country. If the crime was a capital offense and that country but a misdemeanor in the US, that soldier will die.

 

[dacontinent]

So Jews have the right to kill humans if they're witches?!

No.

This is precisely the point of my response to bigmanofds. They had the responsibility of handling JEWS who practiced witchcraft. If they encountered say an Ammonite who was so engaged, they had no jurisdiction to even chide that person. Their course would have been simply to avoid contact with the witch of Ammon.

 

[JayRob]

No.

This is precisely the point of my response to bigmanofds. They had the responsibility of handling JEWS who practiced witchcraft. If they encountered say an Ammonite who was so engaged, they had no jurisdiction to even chide that person. Their course would have been simply to avoid contact with the witch of Ammon.

No?! Then how would they handle the Jews who practiced witchcraft?

 

[Dr H..]

Be careful, because the word witchcraft has different meaning:

This in a sense we would have to kill the local doctor, pharmacist. The word used in this scripture is where we get the word (Gr. pharmacies, [Pharmacy] attempts to aid the powers of evil and the practices associated with verses 21.

 

[dacontinent]

No?! Then how would they handle the Jews who practiced witchcraft?

Perhaps I did not respond clearly in my previous post.

The instruction was that witchcraft by a Jewish person was a capital offense to be met with execution by the Jewish community. This instruction did not give Jews the responsibility of executing a non-Jewish person who practiced witchcraft.

That should be clear now.

 

[JayRob]

Perhaps I did not respond clearly in my previous post.

The instruction was that witchcraft by a Jewish person was a capital offense to be met with execution by the Jewish community. This instruction did not give Jews the responsibility of executing a non-Jewish person who practiced witchcraft.

That should be clear now.

In other words, "yes", murder would have to be committed merely because a person was THOUGHT to be talking to an imaginary "evil" being that caused diseases, earthquakes and other type of supernatural phenomena.
In this case, look out Nostradomus, palm readers, astrologists and the like. LOL!!

Deuteronomy 18:10. "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a WITCH...."

In the case of this verse, it was for EVERY person, the command is for all believers as well. You can't just limit it to Jewish people. Don't know where you got that from. If it's in the OT, then it applies to ALL believers, so no need for you to try and distance yourself from it. It is what it is.

Thank goodness this society, for the most part, has grown up from those foolish and ignorant beliefs and not many advanced people take this nonsense seriously.

 

[Dr H..]

JR

Why is it with you, when ever God say kill "it's murder"

What about what "mankind" and Capital Punishment, is this murder or not?

 

[JayRob]

JR

Why is it with you, when ever God say kill "it's murder"

What about what "mankind" and Capital Punishment, is this murder or not?

First of all, withcraft and capital punishment are miles apart and it's like comparing apples and oranges.

One deals with punishment for outright murder, while the other deals with a persons thoughts and purported power to inflict suffering on someone without much evidence.
If somebody puts a curse on me, am I supposed to kill them for it? This is what ancient ignorant nomads believed and this is what the bible teaches. This is what backwards tribes believe today, yet does it make it true? Should all of them be taken to the side and slaughtered for what they believe? Should they?

As far as capital punishment is concerned, if a person intentionally kills another human being for no apparent reason, he or she should suffer the consequences. I have no real problem with that, if there's ample evidence to show that the defendant intentionally planned and carried out his killing of an innocent human being.
Again, the two are nowhere near being the same.

 

[dacontinent]

First of all, withcraft and capital punishment are miles apart and it's like comparing apples and oranges.

One deals with punishment for outright murder, while the other deals with a persons thoughts and purported power to inflict suffering on someone without much evidence.
If somebody puts a curse on me, am I supposed to kill them for it? This is what ancient ignorant nomads believed and this is what the bible teaches. This is what backwards tribes believe today, yet does it make it true? Should all of them be taken to the side and slaughtered for what they believe? Should they?

As far as capital punishment is concerned, if a person intentionally kills another human being for no apparent reason, he or she should suffer the consequences. I have no real problem with that, if there's ample evidence to show that the defendant intentionally planned and carried out his killing of an innocent human being.
Again, the two are nowhere near being the same.

You're being irrational. You cite the verse and then deny what it says. Just for the record, let's look at it again.

Deut 18:9-12

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.​

Among you => Jews. Like I said in my earlier post, the law of the land would change when control of the land changed. You may drink/smoke/abuse drugs in your home or in public, but you won't do that in my home. So, if other peoples remained in the land after being conquered by the Jews, those would be subject to Jewish law. Driving the conquered people groups from the land was just as important for those groups as it was for the Jews.

Why would the abominations have to be learned? Because they were things not practiced by the Jews. Examples of abominations are given so they are clearly understood.

In every society abominable crimes were dealt with by capital punishment. In some societies lying is capital crime under certain conditions. Capital crimes differ from one society to the next. You and I don't have to agree wit them; we do have to respect them.

 

[JayRob]

You're being irrational. You cite the verse and then deny what it says. Just for the record, let's look at it again.

Deut 18:9-12

When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things [are] an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.​

Among you => Jews. Like I said in my earlier post, the law of the land would change when control of the land changed. You may drink/smoke/abuse drugs in your home or in public, but you won't do that in my home. So, if other peoples remained in the land after being conquered by the Jews, those would be subject to Jewish law. Driving the conquered people groups from the land was just as important for those groups as it was for the Jews.

Why would the abominations have to be learned? Because they were things not practiced by the Jews. Examples of abominations are given so they are clearly understood.

In every society abominable crimes were dealt with by capital punishment. In some societies lying is capital crime under certain conditions. Capital crimes differ from one society to the next. You and I don't have to agree wit them; we do have to respect them.

So you're limiting these withcraft laws to just Jews? If that's the case, you may as well limit the commandments given at Mt. Sinai to the Jews as well. They were given only to the Jews, so what are you obeying them for?
The dietary laws were given only to the Jews/Israelites, so why do you care about them?
The circumcision law was only given to the Israelites, so why do you still observe them?

If you're going to observe one, you're bound to observe them all. This is why religion is inconsistent. Some religious folks tend to pick and choose what verses, commands and statutes they want to believe, while at the same time, disgarding others they say are somehow done away with.

As far as capital punishment is concerned, killing people for lying is not the norm, so that's a non-issue. Capital punishment usually occurs when it's proven that murder was involved.

 

[dacontinent]

So you're limiting these withcraft laws to just Jews?

Right. Other societies had/have similar laws in effect since that time.

...If that's the case, you may as well limit the commandments given at Mt. Sinai to the Jews as well.

Nah. Jesus revalidated them and gave us the law of love.

...
The dietary laws were given only to the Jews/Israelites, so why do you care about them?

I don't. We discussed that in other threads applying to Gentile observance.

...
The circumcision law was only given to the Israelites, so why do you still observe them?

I don't. It is simply a decision that we chose to make. If my daughter chooses to marry someone who is not circumcised, I won't have a problem with that. We discussed this in other threads as well.

...If you're going to observe one, you're bound to observe them all. This is why religion is inconsistent. Some religious folks tend to pick and choose what verses, commands and statutes they want to believe, while at the same time, disgarding others they say are somehow done away with...

All of the information is in the Manual. Its just a matter of reading and following the instructions.

...As far as capital punishment is concerned, killing people for lying is not the norm, so that's a non-issue. Capital punishment usually occurs when it's proven that murder was involved.

Lying as a capital crime is clearly outside the international norm. However, it is most certainly an issue as a capital crime where it is regarded as such. In those places we had better treat it like murder because justice tends to be swift in those places, no requiring "due process" as we observe it here in the US.

 

[JayRob]

Right. Other societies had/have similar laws in effect since that time.

What societies?

Nah. Jesus revalidated them and gave us the law of love.

So Jesus did away with half the old testament? Is this why folks pick and choose what laws they want to follow? Is this why there are more than 31,000 denominations in Christianity? Sounds like a bunch of confusion.

I don't. We discussed that in other threads applying to Gentile observance.

But it's in the bible, so are they done away with? I thought the words of the bible are supposed to last forever. I guess not since this law is history.

I don't. It is simply a decision that we chose to make. If my daughter chooses to marry someone who is not circumcised, I won't have a problem with that. We discussed this in other threads as well.

You don't, but you did circumcise your children? Which is it?
Only in overly religious societies is circumcision mandated. Thank goodness the U.S. has separation of church and state.

All of the information is in the Manual. Its just a matter of reading and following the instructions.

It's obvious that those who are reading the manual aren't nowhere near being on the same page since there are 31,000 divisions in the U.S. alone. LOL!!

Lying as a capital crime is clearly outside the international norm. However, it

is most certainly an issue as a capital crime where it is regarded as such.

In those places we had better treat it like murder because justice tends to be swift in those places, no requiring "due process" as we observe it here in the US.

Other than in religious nations, where is lying a capital crime? Only in the bible is lying a capital punishment. Thank goodness this society doesn't follow such nonsense, because if that was the case, neither you nor I or anybody alive would be alive.

 

[dacontinent]

What societies?

Masi, for one. I am told that there are other tribal societes in Africa, South America, and Polynesia that hold such positions.

So Jesus did away with half the old testament? Is this why folks pick and choose what laws they want to follow? Is this why there are more than 31,000 denominations in Christianity? Sounds like a bunch of confusion.

The Bible teaches that Jesus did not do away with any of the Old Testament. Rather, He fulfilled the law. You already know that.

But it's in the bible, so are they done away with? I thought the words of the bible are supposed to last forever. I guess not since this law is history.

Yes, they are in the Bible. If that is what you think, you are either ignorant from not reading (since you are clearly intelligent enough to know) or you simply don't care. I have pegged you for the latter.

You don't, but you did circumcise your children? Which is it?
Only in overly religious societies is circumcision mandated. Thank goodness the U.S. has separation of church and state.

Ibid.

Other than in religious nations, where is lying a capital crime? Only in the bible is lying a capital punishment. Thank goodness this society doesn't follow such nonsense, because if that was the case, neither you nor I or anybody alive would be alive.

Lying is not a capital crime even in the Bible. There are some instances where people died AT THE WILL OF GOD immediately after lying (Ananias and Sapphira come to mind) but they were not executed. I am glad there is forgiveness offered. I am also glad that execution is ordered but for a few cases for lying in this country (government / military stuff). Besides, every nation is religious.

 

[JayRob]

The Bible teaches that Jesus did not do away with any of the Old Testament. Rather, He fulfilled the law. You already know that.

If it's been fulfilled, then it's obviously done away with. If one is not observing the same law, it's done away with, it's past history and of no importance. There's no more need for anyone to observe the commandments if they've already been fulfilled.

This is why I said in another post that the new testament authors HAD to change their story from a physical story to a "spiritual" story in order to gain "Gentile" converts. The Gentiles wanted no parts of the laws of the old testament, this is why they had to be changed into "spiritual" laws. It was a convenient compromise because the term "spiritual" really meant no law at all.

Spiritual commandments are only madeup in the minds of willing participants and labelled as "spiritual". That's really the gist of the matter. If one thinks there are spiritual commandments, then there are, but only in their mind.

Lying is not a capital crime even in the Bible. There are some instances where people died AT THE WILL OF GOD immediately after lying (Ananias and Sapphira come to mind) but they were not executed. I am glad there is forgiveness offered. I am also glad that execution is ordered but for a few cases for lying in this country (government / military stuff).

Lying is a commandment, yet it's not a capital crime in the bible? Wasn't lying a sin? Didn't Romans 6:23 say that "the wages of sin is death?"

Besides, every nation is religious.

How is "every" nation religious?

This nation's laws are based on the Constitution, not any religion. There are individually religious people in this nation, but the nation's laws are not based on religion.
If this nation was religious, then witchcraft, astrologers and the like would've been ordered to death a long time ago.

 

[Dr H..]

Lying is not a capital crime even in the Bible.

Not totally true, Achan’s Sin in the OT he and his family was stoned.

All the law of the OT was not done away with only cermonial laws (sacrificing the animals etc, etc)

 

[dacontinent]

• JayRob, you are going circular again. Fulfillment of the law is simply that Jesus accomplished all of it. As Dr. H pointed out, it is the ceremonial law that was discarded. Jesus tossed it aside on a number of occasions.
  The 10 Commandments are still in effect for both Jew and Gentile.
• Even Sunday School dropouts know that Romans 6:23 is speaking of eternal death.
• Every nation is religious just like every person is religious: Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, JayRobber, Witch, Astrologer, Atheist, Agnostic, etc. Each nation codifies and systematizes what it believes is right and wrong.

 

[dacontinent]

Lying is not a capital crime even in the Bible.

Not totally true, Achan’s Sin in the OT he and his family was stoned.

All the law of the OT was not done away with only cermonial laws (sacrificing the animals etc, etc)

I considered this case. However, according to the text, the only time Achan was asked about what happened, he told the truth. Therefore, sticking with the text...

Josh 7:14-15
14 In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the Lord taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the Lord shall take shall come by households; and the household which the Lord shall take shall come man by man. 15 And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the Lord, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.​

...lying was not the crime for which Achan was stoned.