SODOM and GOMORRA

[Dr H..]

JRob

You are the one that mention Adam and Jesus age when they were tempted, not me. So I just ask you to give me Book, Chapter and Verse - which you have failed to do.

I understand, Luke 3:23 states that Jesus was "about 30 years of age" at the start of his ministry. And died aroud the age of 33.

So he very well could have been 31 or 32. The best answer would have between the age of 30 - 33. I do recall a year or so ago you were in disagreement when the gospes were wrote - jhow do we know the writings of Luke is correct. I see now, that you are in agreement with Luke, although you debated the accurcy of the gospels -


Ok, so how old was Adam, whe he was tempted - show me the scripture in Genesis 1 - 2.

I ask again, show me the scripture that states that Adam did not have a full measure of the Holy Spirit, Honestly, Adam would not know since he was only "two weeks old"

At two weeks old, what tools would Adam need, please explain.

Do you understand the comparison of the Second Adam?

 

[JayRob]

JRob

You are the one that mention Adam and Jesus age when they were tempted, not me. So I just ask you to give me Book, Chapter and Verse - which you have failed to do.
Ok, so how old was Adam, whe he was tempted - show me the scripture in Genesis 1 - 2.

And I answered the question in the previous post and added that "it was MY opinion".
After the seventh day was mentioned, then the next story involves the temptation mentioned in Genesis 3. It doesn't say exactly when the temptation occurred and I acknowledge that.

It could've been two weeks, two months, two years or longer or shorter. No one really knows but one can guess based on the given information since all of it's unprovable to begin with.

I understand, Luke 3:23 states that Jesus was "about 30 years of age" at the start of his ministry. And died aroud the age of 33.

So he very well could have been 31 or 32. The best answer would have between the age of 30 - 33. I do recall a year or so ago you were in disagreement when the gospes were wrote - jhow do we know the writings of Luke is correct. I see now, that you are in agreement with Luke, although you debated the accurcy of the gospels -

I'm only in agreement with Luke because of the age calculations. Doesn't mean that I think that Luke is real. I still think it's fictional and full of fables.

I ask again, show me the scripture that states that Adam did not have a full measure of the Holy Spirit, Honestly, Adam would not know since he was only "two weeks old"

Again, go to my previous posts if you want your answer. YOU have to provide evidence since you're making the affirmative claim that Adam had the holy spirit.
The burden of proof is on the one making the claim in the affirmative which is you.

At two weeks old, what tools would Adam need, please explain.

He would need the same tools the Jesus character was granted.

Do you understand the comparison of the Second Adam?

Yes I understand the comparison. The first Adam was given a raw deal pure and simple.
The second Adam was shown extra favor and granted every tool needed to combat the being called Satan.

 

[dacontinent]

Dacon,
I thought you agreed to stop this.

Alas, I did. Please forgive me. I'm out.

 

[JayRob]

Alas, I did. Please forgive me. I'm out.

Technically it's too late. The promise, one that shouldn't have been made in the first place, has already been broken.:emlaugh:

So I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with asking and answering questions about the bible? What are folks afraid of.....factual evidence over fables?

Unfortunately you put yourself in this predicament when you vowed to no longer discuss the bible. I knew that wasn't very logical nor smart when you did it in the first place. Now you realize it, but it's too late.....according to you.
You can always start another thread and admit that you were mistaken to make such a decision in the first place but that would call for a lot of humility. Do you have it in you to do so? LOL!!

 

[Dr H..]

JRob

Said ""it was MY opinion".

After the seventh day was mentioned, then the next story involves the temptation mentioned in Genesis 3.

Yeah, it was the next story, however the scripture did not say the next day or the eight day, this and that happened. But, the strange part was, you wanted to debate the issue.

So I'm trying to figure out what's wrong with asking and answering questions about the bible? What are folks afraid of.....factual evidence over fables?

There is nothing wrong with your statement.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim in the affirmative which is you

.

That's why I inluded the statement made by God, concernign His Spirit - How can He promise to remove His Spirit, if the Spirit was not present. in order to remove something, that means that is has to exist at the time the statement was made.

The Second Adam

Please explain what you understand according to the scripture, not your opinion.

 

[JayRob]

JRob

Said ""it was MY opinion".
After the seventh day was mentioned, then the next story involves the temptation mentioned in Genesis 3.
Yeah, it was the next story, however the scripture did not say the next day or the eight day, this and that happened. But, the strange part was, you wanted to debate the issue.

What's wrong with debating the issue? You just admitted that no one knows. One can always guess. Heck, when it comes to the bible, that's what most folks are doing any how when they try to prove most of the bible to be true.:emlaugh:

There is nothing wrong with your statement.

Well, some Christians seem to think it's wrong to ask and answer questions about the bible..

That's why I inluded the statement made by God, concernign His Spirit - How can He promise to remove His Spirit, if the Spirit was not present. in order to remove something, that means that is has to exist at the time the statement was made.

I already answered this question. Just because it says that the holy spirit was present doesn't mean that it's within the person. Being amongst is not the same as being within.

Please explain what you understand according to the scripture, not your opinion.

The first Adam only had physical abilities to rule the animals. That's ALL he was given dominion over. Never did it say that he was given spiritual dominion over anything.
The second Adam, Jesus Christ, was given spiritual power even before he was tempted. The first Adam wasn't given this power.
Nowhere does the bible claim this.
As a matter of fact, 1Corinthians 15:45 says that the first Adam "was of the earth, earthy" whereas the 2nd Adam was spiritual.

That's it in a nutshell. The first Adam was purely physical, whereas the 2nd Adam was spiritual. That's not MY opinion, that's from the bible.

 

[illinijag]

Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

Good Question!

Dacon,
I thought you agreed to stop this.

Great Answer!

Alas, I did. Please forgive me. I'm out.

jsupop33, when I read your post, I had to laugh. Not as a slight to dacontinent, but a laugh to the sinful nature of all men. Even when we try, attempt or pledge to do right, we will forever fail. Such is why we need Jesus; for in Him we have perfection; the Perfection required before a perfect God.

As Christians, we are given a new heart (Spirit of God) which drives our will to do what is right, but there is the flesh:

Matthew 26:41. Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Romans 7:15. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Galatians 5:17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

There is no new thing under the sun; Peter also proved he could not always do what his heart wanted:

Matthew 26:33-34. Peter answered and said unto him, Though all men shall be offended because of thee, yet will I never be offended. Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

So what is the solution? Paul said it best:

Romans 7:24-25. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

However, sinners saved by Grace have what the unsaved do not have…a Spirit willing to do that which is God’s Will. Under the sun, our sinfull flesh is still alive but there will come the day when the flesh will be put to death.

1 John 3:2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Good Day and God Bless

 

[JayRob]

dacon, don't let folks make you feel guilty. You were just doing what comes naturally which is what Acts 17:11 says.

 

[Dr H..]

True about the first Adam, was he to have Spiritual abilities over the plants, animals and the parts of the creation, what purpose would that serve - a patch of onions or a grove of trees need only to be tended - to have the spiritual ability over those mentioned, mean that Adam and the "Trees" would have to b eof the same kind or family, in which they were not. Farmers today 2013, have control over their crops, by being the care taker, there is no spiritual connection

However, if you read the scripture Adam’s position was that of a care taker / overseer of what God had created, including Eve nothing more or less.
Adam was also, to have a spiritual connection with Eve, of course you may not agree with this.

Since you are making reference to 1 Cor. 15:45 -

To understand this you have to read more than one verse, you are just looking at one verse and do not under the analogy / teaching Paul is making to the Corinthians / Church at Corinth.
Allow me to help you understand, you have to start in verse 1 and read to verse 49 – under the comparisons Paul uses, in his teachings to the Church -

The Corinthians understood that they were alive in a new kind of "spiritual" life since they trusted Christ. This is the only type of resurrection they understood. They did not believe that human bodies had any future beyond the grave. Paul wrote to help them comprehend that their physical bodies would be raised to ongoing life, but that their bodies, although physical, would be of a different type of body than their present bodies, which was physical. They would be spiritual, but of a different type than what they thought of as spiritual.

Paul’s analogy between Adam and Christ (21-22) was taught to reinforce his position (verse 44).

15:45 - The natural body is physical, the product of Adam who received life from God (Gen.2:7).
That life resides in a body, which is made up of material and immaterial elements and it eventually dies. The resurrection body is spiritual, via Jesus Christ, the second Adam, who gives new life.

The Spiritual life will dwell in (our) body and will never die. Paul called it spiritual because it is prepared for the spiritual rather than the physical domain because it comes to us from Jesus Christ, not from a physical being, Adam.

When properly read - you cannot use this verse to prove your point!

 

[JayRob]

True about the first Adam, was he to have Spiritual abilities over the plants, animals and the parts of the creation, what purpose would that serve - a patch of onions or a grove of trees need only to be tended - to have the spiritual ability over those mentioned, mean that Adam and the "Trees" would have to b eof the same kind or family, in which they were not. Farmers today 2013, have control over their crops, by being the care taker, there is no spiritual connection

However, if you read the scripture Adam’s position was that of a care taker / overseer of what God had created, including Eve nothing more or less.
Adam was also, to have a spiritual connection with Eve, of course you may not agree with this.

So you agree that Adam wasn't given any special spiritual authority?
You also seem to admit that he wasn't granted the FULL measure of a holy spirit as was the Jesus character.

Since you are making reference to 1 Cor. 15:45 -
To understand this you have to read more than one verse, you are just looking at one verse and do not under the analogy / teaching Paul is making to the Corinthians / Church at Corinth.
Allow me to help you understand, you have to start in verse 1 and read to verse 49 – under the comparisons Paul uses, in his teachings to the Church -

Since the issue in this discussion is whether Adam had the holy spirit or spiritual power, Paul says not one word about Adam having a holy spirit. Paul had ample opportunity to say that Adam had spiritual power via the holy spirit. Not one time did he do so.
On the other hand, he DID state that the Jesus character had spiritual powers.

15:45 - The natural body is physical, the product of Adam who received life from God (Gen.2:7).
That life resides in a body, which is made up of material and immaterial elements and it eventually dies.

That's it, Adam had a physical body and nothing else to go with it. He had no holy spirit. These verses should settle this once and for all.

The resurrection body is spiritual, via Jesus Christ, the second Adam, who gives new life.
The Spiritual life will dwell in (our) body and will never die. Paul called it spiritual because it is prepared for the spiritual rather than the physical domain because it comes to us from Jesus Christ, not from a physical being, Adam.

When Paul mentions Adam, he's STRICTLY referring ONLY to the PHYSICAL.
When Paul mentions the Jesus character, he's referring to the SPIRITUAL. That's as clear as day. Nowhere does it even remotely hints at Adam having any spiritual power.

When properly read - you cannot use this verse to prove your point!

If you can't comprehend simple terminology used by Paul to describe a physical Adam versus a spiritual Jesus, then there's nothing more for me to say. If Paul can't convince you, I certainly can't.
Nowhere does Paul even remotely hint that Adam partook of any holy spirit. You have no grounds to believe such either, but you can if you want to.

Fact of the matter is that Adam wasn't given the same powers granted to the Jesus character. Paul seems to agree with this.

 

[Dr H..]

Spiritual Authority over what, animals and plants - that makes no sense, think about it - excuse me you have.

As for the Full Measure of the Holy Spirit, only God knows - however, again having a full measure, what purpose would it serve during his life span - and considering that you said Adam was three days old.

You still do not understand 1 Corinthians 15, this has nothing to do with what you are seeking -

I am glad you mentioned "simple terminology" because this applies to your understanding [confused] of scripture.1 Corinthians 1:27

Seriously you do not have a point - you are searching to disprove "something" but its not there.

Why would Adam need the same power as Jesus, Adam was not the Savior - he was no different the individuals living today.

 

[JayRob]

Spiritual Authority over what, animals and plants - that makes no sense, think about it - excuse me you have.

As for the Full Measure of the Holy Spirit, only God knows - however, again having a full measure, what purpose would it serve during his life span - and considering that you said Adam was three days old.

You still do not understand 1 Corinthians 15, this has nothing to do with what you are seeking -

I am glad you mentioned "simple terminology" because this applies to your understanding [confused] of scripture.1 Corinthians 1:27

Seriously you do not have a point - you are searching to disprove "something" but its not there.

Why would Adam need the same power as Jesus, Adam was not the Savior - he was no different the individuals living today.

The last sentence speaks volumes. Why would Adam need the SAME power as the Jesus figure? Simple. According to the bible, he was fighting for the rest of humanity. If he had not sinned, there would be no sin, no death and no need for a savior.
Had Adam been given the full measure of the holy spirit as was the Jesus character, he would've had the tools to challenge and overcome Satan, but he didn't and he wasn't able to overcome him according to the bible.

I really can't understand why something so simple is so difficult to grasp.
I can understand this and I don't even believe in any holy spirit, but it's right there in the bible stories.
Adam was clearly shortchanged, made a scapegoat and cursed for something the biblical god KNEW he couldn't and wouldn't accomplish.

Either you don't want to admit this for fear of incriminating the biblical god for a grievous injustice or you just don't comprehend what I'm saying. Perhaps it could be both.

What I do understand is that there's not a single verse in the bible linking Adam with any parts of having the holy spirit internally. Thus far, you can't point to one verse which clearly links Adam to having the holy spirit.
On the other hand, there are multiple verses linking the Jesus character to it.

 

[Dr H..]

I am not sure if you understand the bible or the role of Adam – Nowhere does it state that “he was fighting for the rest of humanity” he was made to be a caretaker of what God had created, he degree failed. When Adam and Eve rebelled, man was separated from God through sin. God's holiness required punishment and payment / atonement for sin, which was (and still is) eternal death.

The plan is simple, however because so many are spiritual blind, they cannot comprehend / spiritually see or accept the plan.
Adam was not made to be the savior, please give Book, Chapter and Verse – to support your statement.

Overcoming Satan, wow, what an interesting statement, we “Christians today” does not have the “Full Measure of the Holy Spirit” First of all, Satan – Devil, has limited powers and influence over an individual, he is only allowed what God authorize him to do, according to According to the Book of Job and other N T Scriptures.

Note: Satan, will always be subject to “his creator” he had to get Gods permission to hurt Job – Chapter 1
According to 1 Peter 5:6 -9 “we can resist the adversary – Satan”

Satan, can only control or destroy an individual, if the individual allow this to happen, as did Adam and Eve. “Greater is He within you, than he that is in the world”. He Satan is not omnipotent, omniscient, nor omnipresent.

“Lest Satan should get advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices”. (2 Cor. 2:11) – Note: we are not stupid; we know when we are in sin, which is a violation of God’s word. And we know as well as Satan knows what it takes to cause us to sin. He has many devices / methods, to include women, money, gambling, stealing, telling lies, excuses, dishonesty and so on. His most powerful method is “temptation”, which we are all subject to..

The reason I can stand firm in my belief / bible teaching and have only a measure the Holy Spirit [Indwelling], not the Full Measure, I understand Ephesians 6 – I know my enemy and can fight him, Like Adam and Eve, could have “If I decide too, or I can go along with his plan” or I can be like Jesus, Matthew 4:4; Revelation 2:10; 12:1-11; James. 4:7-8-

Adam and Eve knew the what was right and wrong, because they had direct instructions from God "Lesson" We have the creature disobeying the Creator - and there is bible on that - NT

Truly, I am not hung up on linking Adam with the Holy Spirit; you appear to be struggling with the issue. However, did God not say?
"And the Lord said--my Spirit shall not always strive with man." Gen. 6:3.

For certain, there are many lessons that are implied in Genesis 6:3 –

God's Spirit strives with man, sometimes, and therefore mankind does resist the Spirit of God, which is the Holy Spirit. Striving is not a physical striving, but a moral influence, persuading, reasoning and convincing. This type striving; it is a striving of mind with mind, and not of body with body. The mind is the “heart, the Hebrew word is Lav and the Greek word is Kardea, both dealing with the mind –

Why would, God make this statement, if the Holy Spirit was not operating in the life of Adam’s and his decadents, life. Verification and this is what you are missing – Numbers 27:1; 1 Samuel 10; 16. In the OT, an individual having the Holy Spirit, doesn’t always indicate that person’s spiritual condition (Adam, Eve, Saul, Samson, Noah and others). Therefore, the Spirit came upon certain Old Testament individuals for a specific task assigned by God, regardless their spiritual condition. Once the task was completed, the Spirit presumably departed from that person.

- Regardless, how individuals try to undermine the scriptures "God, has already answered the mind of doubt" - thats why John 5:39; Acts 17:11 and 2 Timoty 2:15 -

 

[JayRob]

I am not sure if you understand the bible or the role of Adam – Nowhere does it state that “he was fighting for the rest of humanity” he was made to be a caretaker of what God had created, he degree failed. When Adam and Eve rebelled, man was separated from God through sin. God's holiness required punishment and payment / atonement for sin, which was (and still is) eternal death.

The plan is simple, however because so many are spiritual blind, they cannot comprehend / spiritually see or accept the plan.
Adam was not made to be the savior, please give Book, Chapter and Verse – to support your statement.

Seems like it's you who don't understand. If Adam wouldn't have sinned, there would be no sin. Based on the book of Revelation, Satan would've been banished to his place of torment much earlier had Adam not sinned. Had Adam not sinned, there would be no need for a savior because humans wouldn't have to be saved from anything or any sin. So yes, Adam was fighting for the rest of humanity at that time, but it's unfortunate that he wasn't given the tools to succeed.
As far as verses, it says sin came by ONE man. Who was that man? Adam.
Romans 5:12 backs up that statement: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Overcoming Satan, wow, what an interesting statement, we “Christians today” does not have the “Full Measure of the Holy Spirit” First of all, Satan – Devil, has limited powers and influence over an individual, he is only allowed what God authorize him to do, according to According to the Book of Job and other N T Scriptures.

Note: Satan, will always be subject to “his creator” he had to get Gods permission to hurt Job – Chapter 1
According to 1 Peter 5:6 -9 “we can resist the adversary – Satan”
Satan, can only control or destroy an individual, if the individual allow this to happen, as did Adam and Eve. “Greater is He within you, than he that is in the world”. He Satan is not omnipotent, omniscient, nor omnipresent.

You just proved my point with a simple verse. Greater is he that is WITHIN you. Was this holy spirit within Adam? I'm still waiting on you to post the verses proving that Adam had this power within him when he was tempted.

“Lest Satan should get advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices”. (2 Cor. 2:11) – Note: we are not stupid; we know when we are in sin, which is a violation of God’s word. And we know as well as Satan knows what it takes to cause us to sin. He has many devices / methods, to include women, money, gambling, stealing, telling lies, excuses, dishonesty and so on. His most powerful method is “temptation”, which we are all subject to..

You keep proving my point. If Satan has these many powers and if he's the king of deception according to the bible, why wasn't Adam given the tools to combat this powerful enemy? Please post the verses specifically showing that Adam had the holy spirit.

The reason I can stand firm in my belief / bible teaching and have only a measure the Holy Spirit [Indwelling], not the Full Measure, I understand Ephesians 6 – I know my enemy and can fight him, Like Adam and Eve, could have “If I decide too, or I can go along with his plan” or I can be like Jesus, Matthew 4:4; Revelation 2:10; 12:1-11; James. 4:7-8-

If you only have a measure, you STILL sin. If you had the FULL measure, you wouldn't sin at all.

Adam and Eve knew the what was right and wrong, because they had direct instructions from God "Lesson" We have the creature disobeying the Creator - and there is bible on that - NT

Whether Adam knew right from wrong is not the issue. Many times folks in the bible knew right from wrong, but what did they say helped them do the right and reject the wrong? They gave credit to the holy spirit. Need I post verses supporting this? I don't think so.

Truly, I am not hung up on linking Adam with the Holy Spirit; you appear to be struggling with the issue. However, did God not say?
"And the Lord said--my Spirit shall not always strive with man." Gen. 6:3.
For certain, there are many lessons that are implied in Genesis 6:3

THIS is why you don't understand this issue. You refuse to acknowledge that Adam wasn't given a full measure of the holy spirit because you KNOW that it was not fair for Jesus to have been given this tool to overcome Satan, yet Adam wasn't given this same tool.
If you were to admit this, you'd be condemning the biblical god for not giving Adam the tools he needed.
It's really amazing that it's so difficult for you to grasp something so simple, then again you may understand but are just in denial.

God's Spirit strives with man, sometimes, and therefore mankind does resist the Spirit of God, which is the Holy Spirit. Striving is not a physical striving, but a moral influence, persuading, reasoning and convincing. This type striving; it is a striving of mind with mind, and not of body with body. The mind is the “heart, the Hebrew word is Lav and the Greek word is Kardea, both dealing with the mind –

Why would, God make this statement, if the Holy Spirit was not operating in the life of Adam’s and his decadents, life. Verification and this is what you are missing – Numbers 27:1; 1 Samuel 10; 16. In the OT, an individual having the Holy Spirit, doesn’t always indicate that person’s spiritual condition (Adam, Eve, Saul, Samson, Noah and others). Therefore, the Spirit came upon certain Old Testament individuals for a specific task assigned by God, regardless their spiritual condition. Once the task was completed, the Spirit presumably departed from that person.

So you're having to GUESS if Adam had the holy spirit? That's what it seems like. After all you've posted, you still haven't shown one verse indicating Adam had the holy spirit.
You're posting verses about other people, but not one time did you post one verse showing Adam having the holy spirit.
Striving in no form or fashion means that the spirit was operating WITHIN that person. The spirit can work with an individual outwardly and influence a person outwardly, but that's not the same as dwelling within. I mentioned this a few posts ago.
I'm waiting for you to post one verse from the entire bible showing that Adam (not Samson or Saul), had the holy spirit. I don't think you can.

Regardless, how individuals try to undermine the scriptures "God, has already answered the mind of doubt" - thats why John 5:39; Acts 17:11 and 2 Timoty 2:15

I don't have to undermine the scriptures. The scriptures do that on it's own. I just happen to ask the difficult questions and point out how scriptures undermine each other. I didn't write down the scriptures however I can read and ask difficult questions about them without feeling guilty that I'm blaspheming or committing an unpardonable sin of some sort.
It's called honesty.

 

[Dr H..]

Having a measure of the Holy Sprit, does not keep anyone from sinning! -

Having the full measure of the Holy Spirit, does not keep anyone from sinning!

Choosing to sin or not is an individual choice as it was with Adam, Eve, Dr H and JRob.

Choosing not to sin, is an individual choice as such was the decision of Jesus, and as such was Dr. H., last night when an old sweetie stopped for a little R & R, I decision was not to entertain her - however, If I decide to play house with her, I would have sinned = individual choice regardless of having the Holy Spirit or not.

Your questions are not difficult to answer, because the bile has already provided an answer - the problem is you are not willing to accept the answer, which is a problem of the heart.

I am not refusing, to say if Adam, had a full measure of the Holy Spirit or not, because the scripture does not say - to go beyond what the scripture say is pure speculation - all I can say is that he had the Holy Spirit, to what degree the bible does not say and your answer is pure speculation, unless you are quoting scripture.

The spirit can work with an individual outwardly and influence a person outwardly, but that's not the same as dwelling within.

Agree, the OT individuals, the Holy Spirit worked outwardly as I mentioned with the few individuals. However, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is for Christians as taught in the NT, beginning with the out pouring of the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts -

Call it honesty or not, but when you deny the Holy Spirit its blaspheming the Spirit of God - Understand that the OT people had contact with God "directly" and Jesus in the NT we have Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

 

[JayRob]

Having a measure of the Holy Sprit, does not keep anyone from sinning! -

I told you this.

Having the full measure of the Holy Spirit, does not keep anyone from sinning!

In the fictional bible, having a full measure of the holy spirit lessens one's chances of sinning to the point where he or she has no desire to sin.

Choosing to sin or not is an individual choice as it was with Adam, Eve, Dr H and JRob.

Your bible doesn't say that.

Choosing not to sin, is an individual choice as such was the decision of Jesus, and as such was Dr. H., last night when an old sweetie stopped for a little R & R, I decision was not to entertain her - however, If I decide to play house with her, I would have sinned = individual choice regardless of having the Holy Spirit or not.

When you're asleep and having a "wet dream", that's sin too eventhough you had no intentions of sinning by lusting in your sleep. How can you choose NOT to sin in your sleep? That's it, you can't. LOL!!

Your questions are not difficult to answer, because the bile has already provided an answer - the problem is you are not willing to accept the answer, which is a problem of the heart.

The bile has already provided an answer? I didn't call the bible bile, you did.:lol::lol::lol:

The bible has so many contradictions within it's pages it's not even funny. This is how I KNOW that it wasn't inspired by an "all-knowing" being. It was written and inspired by fallible men who plagiarized and stole stories from previous cultures and placed it in the bible.

I am not refusing, to say if Adam, had a full measure of the Holy Spirit or not, because the scripture does not say - to go beyond what the scripture say is pure speculation - all I can say is that he had the Holy Spirit, to what degree the bible does not say and your answer is pure speculation, unless you are quoting scripture.

You're speculating by claiming that Adam had the holy spirit. You've failed to post one verse supporting your theory.
I'm still waiting for the verse showing that Adam had the holy spirit.

The spirit can work with an individual outwardly and influence a person outwardly, but that's not the same as dwelling within.

Agree, the OT individuals, the Holy Spirit worked outwardly as I mentioned with the few individuals. However, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, is for Christians as taught in the NT, beginning with the out pouring of the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts

You continue to contradict yourself. First you claim that Adam HAD the holy spirit. Now you're claiming that the indwelling of the holy spirit is for Christians. You sound confused.
How could Adam have the holy spirit if it was ONLY for Christians after Pentecost? A major contradiction on your part.

Call it honesty or not, but when you deny the Holy Spirit its blaspheming the Spirit of God - Understand that the OT people had contact with God "directly" and Jesus in the NT we have Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Call it what you will. When you can prove scientifically that there's a "holy" spirit, then I'll give it some credence, otherwise it's fictional.

Now you're saying Old Testament people had direct contact with the biblical god, while New Testament people had Jesus and the holy spirit? If this is the case, then Adam didn't have the holy spirit since he was in the Old Testament. You just said so in your own words.
It seems like you're all over the place to the point that you're confusing yourself.

 

[Dr H..]

Adam & Eve sin or not to sin -

Questions: Do you always make the right choice or do you decide to sin at times?

In the garden, Adam and Eve were given free will [period], as well as some very specific instructions [clear and directly from God]. They could eat of the fruit of every tree except one, which God declared - Genesis 3:1.

Though Eve blamed Satan, and Adam blamed Eve, they each bore the consequences of their individual sins, as each had made the choice to commit that sin. Pointing the finger does not negate the individual choice to sin, violation of God's law, nor does it remove the consequences.

The Bible teaches that sin is a matter of individual choice (Ezekiel 18). It begins with discerning good from evil (Hebrews 5:14) and then refusing the evil and choosing the good (Isaiah 7:15).

So if you don't think Adam and other O T individuals did not have contact with the Holy Spirit, explain whey God stated "my Spirit shall no dwell with you always"

No Matter how you attempt to twist the scriptures, it God have spoken -

 

[JayRob]

Adam & Eve sin or not to sin -

Questions: Do you always make the right choice or do you decide to sin at times?

In the garden, Adam and Eve were given free will [period], as well as some very specific instructions [clear and directly from God]. They could eat of the fruit of every tree except one, which God declared - Genesis 3:1.

Though Eve blamed Satan, and Adam blamed Eve, they each bore the consequences of their individual sins, as each had made the choice to commit that sin. Pointing the finger does not negate the individual choice to sin, violation of God's law, nor does it remove the consequences.

You actually believe that the fate of billions of people depended on whether or not a man ate from a tree? I'm ashamed to admit that I used to believe such nonsense.
When I look back on it, it's both funny and sad. I'm so glad I'm free of such fiction.

Any how and after all of your posting, you still haven't provided one verse indicating that Adam had a holy spirit.

The Bible teaches that sin is a matter of individual choice (Ezekiel 18). It begins with discerning good from evil (Hebrews 5:14) and then refusing the evil and choosing the good (Isaiah 7:15).

So when you have lustful dreams at night, you can actually control them?

So if you don't think Adam and other O T individuals did not have contact with the Holy Spirit, explain whey God stated "my Spirit shall no dwell with you always"

I mentioned this before. Dwelling "amongst" is different from dwelling "within". I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

No Matter how you attempt to twist the scriptures, it God have spoken

Scriptures are mere words written by fallible humans with no proof whatseoever that they were inspired by any god.
I base this statement on dozens and dozens of unfulfilled biblical prophecies, unscientific biblical statements, historical biblical inaccuracies, plagiarized and COPIED material from previous historical writings and imaginary miracles (such as water to wine, the sun stopping in midstream, evil spirits causing diseases, one man killing a THOUSAND men with a bone).

An all-knowing god would NEVER make so many hundreds blunders in one book IF it was inspired by such an entity.

 

[Dr H..]

Really, “So when you have lustful dreams at night, you can actually control them”

What does a dream; have to do with mankind deciding to disobey God. Why are you spending so much time attempting to prove the Bible is wrong?

The Bible defines a dream in Job 33:15 - The cause of dreams: Ecclesiastes 5:3 - The Reality of Dreams Isaiah 29:8

Do you understand, why we dream, God uses dreams for various reasons.

Any how and after all of your posting, you still haven't provided one verse indicating that Adam had a holy spirit.
I mentioned this before. Dwelling "amongst" is different from dwelling "within". I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

If you do not understand, the scripture that has been mention, it’s not my fault. The scripture has been presented / quoted.

Please answer my question, why would God say “My Spirit shall not dwell with you always, if they did not have the Spirit of God” although, the Spirit of God “dwelled” among and not within [indwelling], the point is the Spirit of God, was there with Adam; Eve and other’ God was referring to – The Spirit of God, is still present within [indwelling, of those that has obeyed God] and among us today – 2013.

True, that you are repeating yourself, however you don’t understand what you are saying [repeating].

You actually believe that the fate of billions of people depended on whether or not a man ate from a tree? I'm ashamed to admit that I used to believe such nonsense.

I can’t speak for others, however I know what I believe, and that is:

Adam and Eve sinned; God developed the plan of redemption via His Son, who died for the sins of the world [including yours] – that’s what I believe and stand on.

“Mere words / fallible humans”

Yeah, we have discussed your disbelief before, to no avail. Believe it or not, but the Bible also address’s your comment:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” 2 Timothy 3:15 – 17

There is too much external and internal evidence that proves the Bible, the inspired word of God, whether you accept it or not.

So when the Bible contains information about Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, that a lie, based on “your opinion” however, archeologist have discovered the City of Babylon and stone inscriptions referring Nebuchadnezzar – please explain how this can happen

In the year that Tartan came unto Ashdod, (when Sargon the king of Assyria sent him,) and fought against Ashdod, and took it; Isaiah 20:1

The Bible talks about Sargon, King of Assyria. Pleas explain [IF] the Bible is what you have said. How It make reference to the King, and archeologist has discovered clay pots and other inscriptions making reference to the king “University of Chicago” – is this by coincident or what

Matthew Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king– if what you are saying is true, please explain, how coins has been found with Herod inscribed on them. Herod the Great, was a Roman client-king of Judaea (c. 74 BC – c. 5, 4 or 1 BC in Jerusalem –

Matthew 2:13 Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Does the County of Egypt exist or not, if what you are saying is true, then Egypt is only an imaginary country.

Ethiopia, is mention twenty times in the bible, beginning in Genesis 2:13, how could this be if the Bible is the type of book that you proclaim. Please Explain

If what you are saying is true, then the Bible would have had to be written after the counties of Egypt, Rome and Etheopia came into existance. Or within the past century to mention some of the planets, that was previously mentioned in the O T... Please Explain how this is possible..

 

[JayRob]

Really,
What does a dream; have to do with mankind deciding to disobey God.

You claimed that folks can control ALL of their thoughts, I say they can't always do that. You claimed that sin is sin no matter what. If you sin in your dreams, it's still sin according to you. I say that makes no sense because humans can't control all of their thoughts while sleeping.

Why are you spending so much time attempting to prove the Bible is wrong?

I don't need to disprove the bible. It does that to itself and I don't have to add one word to it.

The Bible defines a dream in Job 33:15 -The cause of dreams: Ecclesiastes 5:3 - The Reality of Dreams Isaiah 29:8
Do you understand, why we dream, God uses dreams for various reasons.

So what does it mean when you wake up with wet sheets. What's your god trying to tell you?
There's little to no evidence showing that any biblical god controls what one dreams at night.

If you do not understand, the scripture that has been mention, it’s not my fault. The scripture has been presented / quoted.

Scripture can be mentioned until one is blue in the face. It doesn't make it true. Please tell me at what time did the sun stop in the middle of the day so that a small obscure tribe could win a war under Joshua. Prove that this event happened.

Please answer my question, why would God say “My Spirit shall not dwell with you always, if they did not have the Spirit of God” although, the Spirit of God “dwelled” among and not within [indwelling], the point is the Spirit of God, was there with Adam; Eve and other’ God was referring to – The Spirit of God, is still present within [indwelling, of those that has obeyed God] and among us today – 2013.

If the biblical god's spirit was with Adam and not within him when he "sinned", why did the biblical god have to ask Adam what happened if he was already there in spirit?

True, that you are repeating yourself, however you don’t understand what you are saying.

I know exactly what I'm saying and I know exactly what I've asked you to produce. Up until now, you still haven't produced one verse showing that Adam had the holy spirit within him according to the biblical story.

I can’t speak for others, however I know what I believe, and that is:
Adam and Eve sinned; God developed the plan of redemption via His Son, who died for the sins of the world [including yours] –that’s what I believe and stand on.

You have the right to believe what you wish, and I support that right. However don't expect another person to believe what you do if you can't support it with pure facts.

Yeah, we have discussed your disbelief before, to no avail. Believe it or not, but the Bible also address’s your comment:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work” 2 Timothy 3:15 – 17

I know the bible addresses comments as such, but that's no proof that the bible is any more accurate just because it claims it's "god-breathed".
The bible is full of errors and inaccuracies. As I've stated before, what "all-knowing and all-powerful" god would take credit for the hundreds of errors and inaccuracies in his book? Many people give this biblical god credit for such errors and inaccuracies.
I don't.

There is too much external and internal evidence that proves the Bible, the inspired word of God, whether you accept it or not.

There are parts of the bible that might be accurate, but what about the many parts that aren't? That's the issue.
If this biblical god is all-knowing and all-powerful, there wouldn't be so many errors, inaccuracies and inconsistencies in one whole book inspired by such a great entity. This alone proves the bible as not being an all-inspired book.

So when the Bible contains information about Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, that a lie, based on “your opinion” however, archeologist have discovered the City of Babylon and stone inscriptions referring Nebuchadnezzar – please explain how this can happen

In the year that Tartan came unto Ashdod, (when Sargon the king of Assyria sent him,) and fought against Ashdod, and took it; Isaiah 20:1

The Bible talks about Sargon, King of Assyria. Pleas explain [IF] the Bible is what you have said. How It make reference to the King, and archeologist has discovered clay pots and other inscriptions making reference to the king “University of Chicago” – is this by coincident or what

Easy response. How do you know these verses weren't written AFTER the fact? You don't.
How do you know that this information wasn't copied from previous artifacts after that time from other cultures? You don't.
Even with that said, none of your verses prove that a biblical god inspired verses that could easily have been copied by the writer of the book at that time.

Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king– if what you are saying is true, please explain, how coins has been found with Herod inscribed on them. Herod the Great, was a Roman client-king of Judaea (c. 74 BC – c. 5, 4 or 1 BC in Jerusalem –
Matthew 2:13 Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

You just posted a prime example of a biblical contradiction.

The Gospel of Luke claims (2:1-2) that Jesus was born during a census according to the historian Josephus, which took place after Herod the Great died, and after his successor, Archelaus, was deposed.
On the other hand, Matthew claims (2:1-3) that Jesus was born when Herod the Great was still alive--possibly two years before he died (2:7-16).
Other elements of their stories also contradict each other. Since Josephus precisely dates the census to 6 A.D. and Herod's death to 4 B.C., and the sequence is indisputable, Luke and Matthew contradict each other.

To add to the above, there's no evidence that there was a census at that time.

Does the County of Egypt exist or not, if what you are saying is true, then Egypt is only an imaginary country.

Naming a country after the fact proves nothing. It only shows that the writer perhaps knew about a country named Egypt.

Ethiopia, is mention twenty times in the bible, beginning in Genesis 2:13, how could this be if the Bible is the type of book that you proclaim. Please Explain

If what you are saying is true, then the Bible would have had to be written after the counties of Egypt, Rome and Etheopia came into existance.Please Explain how this is possible..

Same as the previous post AND you just answered your own question. Naming a country AFTER it already existed means nothing. Now if this writer had named the country BEFORE it came into existence, then he'd be on to something.
There's no evidence proving the bible was written before either country came to be.
Anyone can write a book and mention a certain country. Would that PROVE that their book was inspired by an all-knowing entity? No.

Or within the past century to mention some of the planets, that was previously mentioned in the O T...

What planet (besides Earth) are mentioned in the bible? The writers of the bible didn't know about other planets so they didn't write about them.
More proof that the bible was inspired and written by men.

 

[Dr H..]

Please explain how Job mention certain constellations, he was not an astronomer, neither did he have a telescope – the knowledge had to come from somewhere.

Who is the He, Job is talking about

He made all the stars--the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the southern sky.

"Can you direct the movement of the stars--binding the cluster of the Pleiades or loosening the cords of Orion? Job 38:31; 9:9
You are the one that introduced “Dreams’

You claimed that folks can control ALL of their thoughts, I say they can't always do that.

Quote the statement where I stated that a person can control “All” of their thoughts. True, a person can control their thoughts – if they desire.

Proverbs 23:7

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart (mind) is not with thee.
Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things. Philippians 4:8

Question: are you saying a person cannot control what they think and do?

 

[JayRob]

Please explain how Job mention certain constellations, he was not an astronomer, neither did he have a telescope – the knowledge had to come from somewhere.

Who is the He, Job is talking about

He made all the stars--the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the southern sky.

"Can you direct the movement of the stars--binding the cluster of the Pleiades or loosening the cords of Orion? Job 38:31; 9:9
You are the one that introduced “Dreams’

First of all, you said that other "planets" were named in the bible. Orion and Pleiades are not planets.
Where are the names of other planets mentioned in the bible?

The constellations back then could be seen with the naked eye in certain instances.
The Chinese, Egyptians, Babylonians and other ancient cultures could actually SEE star clusters, Orion and Pleiades even back then.
It didn't take a "god" to point that out, so the bible mentioning them is nothing spectacular at all.

In addition to the above, Orion and Pleiades are names taken from Greek mythology. The Greeks came on the scene hundreds of years AFTER Job, so how did Job happen to use these Greek names when they weren't even in existence at the time.
I'll tell you how. The words were simply COPIED from the Greek language and placed in the bible by human translators.
This had nothing to do with any god inspiring these words.

Another blatant contradiction and startling question is, why would the biblical god give credit to pagan gods by naming the stars after them, stars that HE supposedly created? LOL!!
To me, this is more evidence that the bible is man-made.

Quote the statement where I stated that a person can control “All” of their thoughts. True, a person can control their thoughts – if they desire.
Proverbs 23:7

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart (mind) is not with thee.
Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things. Philippians 4:8

Question: are you saying a person cannot control what they think and do?

Name one person who can control their thoughts while they're asleep or dreaming.

I see you have no defense against information from post 121.

 

[dacontinent]

Name one person who can control their thoughts while they're asleep or dreaming...

Note that I am speaking ONLY for myself. I don't control my thoughts while I am sleeping. I leave that to God. I go back to the scriptures that Dr. H referenced (Pr 23:7, Phip 4:8) and I go to sleep. I BELIEVE that He that is within me (Holy Spirit) is greater than he that is in the world and that He keeps my thought life even while I sleep. As I have leaned on Him the last 34 years of my life I have not had a dream of sin and rested well.

You mileage may vary.

 

[JayRob]

Note that I am speaking ONLY for myself. I don't control my thoughts while I am sleeping. I leave that to God. I go back to the scriptures that Dr. H referenced (Pr 23:7, Phip 4:8) and I go to sleep. I BELIEVE that He that is within me (Holy Spirit) is greater than he that is in the world and that He keeps my thought life even while I sleep. As I have leaned on Him the last 34 years of my life I have not had a dream of sin and rested well.

You mileage may vary.

Quit making Dr. H statements look inaccurate. Folks may think you and I are agreeing with each other.:emlaugh:

If all else fails, always fall back on the holy spirit theory. There's no evidence that a holy spirit controls the thoughts of any person.
Faith in a holy spirit doesn't equate to evidence.
And for you to claim that you've NEVER had a dream of sin in 34 years is unprovable and quite amusing. I thought one of the fruits of the holy spirit was humility, but after what you just said about not having a sinful dream in 34 YEARS, I find that even more amusing.

 

[dacontinent]

Just sharing my EXPERIENCE with the TRUTH. If that does not count as evidence for anyone reading, that is okay. My only intent was to offer a PERSONAL perspective.