Single, Saved —and



kendrick said:
Jay,

Come on, son. At this point no matter what I or anyone else post in response to the many questions you have, you won't accept our responses.

You are just looking for answers and explanations that fit your point of view.

Jay, you come on the Prayer Board frequented by believers and expect us to waver without providing any credible evidence to refute what's stated in the Bible.
Click to expand...

No, I don't expect anyone to waver nor is that my purpose. I would hope that you can post more than just verses from a bible. I can do that but that's not showing proof of anything, that's only showing your faith of what's in an already flawed book as being true.

I would like for folks to actually show proof that what the bible says is accurate. Is that too much to ask for or expect? If it is, please let me know.

Note: Are you going to answer my previous question or not? it's not that difficult an answer.
 
Last edited:
kendrick said:
So science is infallible, has no limits and can explain any and all things?
Click to expand...

Based on it's track record, science is hands down more accurate than the bible. Why? Because one depends on evidence while the other depends on faith. Let's not get the two confused.

For example:

Science never claimed that the sun ever stopped in midstream but the bible does.
Science never claimed that evil spirits are the cause of diseases but the bible does.
Science never claimed that the earth is the center of the universe but religion did.
Science never claimed that the male sperm was the only seed that enabled the birth of humans, but religion did once upon a time.

Now do folks see why it's not accurate to call the bible infallible or totally accurate, because it's not.
 
Last edited:
JagHammer said:
No, because science tests and rejects unproven and outdated information.
Click to expand...

BINGO!! It's called presenting evidence and double blind studies by INDEPENDENT parties. Without evidence, science couldn't exist.
Religion, on the other hand, thrives off of "faith", not evidence. That's the primary difference between the two that folks just want to ignore and not talk about.
 
That was a pretty interesting article......

Anyone who is a Believer knows it isn't easy living or trying to live for Christ. For those who are Believers, we know that even Jesus Christ Himself told us our walk wouldn't be easy. Everyone, Believers and non-Believers alike face temptation of some kind every single day, not only in the area of sex, but everything (food, alcohol, drugs, gambling, etc). But just because we're living in the season where now what was considered wrong has now become so familiar and practiced, does not mean that we (Believers) are not obligated to make a true concentrated effort to try and live as God would have us to live. Yes, it's hard trying to do good, trying to do better, trying to improve self when it comes to just about anything......and when you have more people waiting and watching to see you fail rather than encourage and inspire and support, it's really tough. But when it's hard in life, that's when you have to pray the hardest and truly put your mind on other things. Will you be successful all the time? I don't know, but if you continue to pray, and stay in the Word, and tap into the Holy Spirit, it will get easier.

And we also have to remember that there are no perfect people on this earth; there are no perfect religious leaders, and no perfect churches/synagouges (sp)/cathedrals, etc.....Believers know that while we ourselves are not perfect, we do serve a perfect God.....He'll help us....all we have to do is ask, believe, and know that He can and will help us.......
 
Last edited:
JayRob said:
Trying to insult whom and for what?

Which part are you referring to: the part about him ignoring the so-called righteous men who got their groove on OR the part about Onan?

If one is going to tell it, TELL THE WHOLE STORY, not just the parts that seem to be all lovey dovey.

First, what god is SO concerned about a man having sex with the wife of a dead brother he doesn't love? Why is he trying to force this man to have sex with a woman he doesn't love? Is THIS moral? Is this a standard that you'd want Americans to live by today? You claimed earlier that humans are "free moral agents", but this Onan person didn't have a free choice. It was either do it or die. Some choice.

Instead of the biblical god literally forcing another man to have sex against his will and impregnating a woman against his will, he could've used his miraculous powers to artificially inseminate the woman, as he supposedly did with others? He didn't have to force this man to implant his sperm into another woman against his will.

And you claim that we're free moral agents? Yeah, upon pain of death I see. That's no more freedom than someone giving me the choice of jumping off a bridge or drowning myself.
Click to expand...
Trying to insult believers for believing in Someone that you don't. You have somehow determined that faith is less than science and have made yourself the arbiter. That is an extremely narrow perspective.

From the text, Onan was sought to raise a child to honor his brother. This was a custom of the Jews. A similar situation would be later posed to Jesus and raise the question of who the woman would be married to in heaven. So, he goes in to have sex with the woman, but instead of contributing his seed to fulfillment, he spills it. In Jewish culture, this is an effective raping of the woman. THAT is what displeased God and cost Onan his life. No where in Scripture is there any allusion to Onan being given an ultimatum. He chose poorly and reaped the consequences.

Rape is immoral and I would not want Americans to find it acceptable today.
 
dacontinent; [QUOTE said:
Trying to insult believers for believing in Someone that you don't.
Click to expand...

Seems like Christians have no problem insulting the beliefs of non-believers non-stop by claiming that you have the ONE and ONLY TRUE god and that non-believers are all damned to hell if we don't accept the Jesus character. How is that not an insult from the start?

You have somehow determined that faith is less than science and have made yourself the arbiter. That is an extremely narrow perspective.
Click to expand...

Faith is far less than science. Science and religion reminds me of the old saying, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". A bird in the hand equates to scientific evidence because you have it right there before your very eyes. The phrase, "two in the bush equates to faith" meaning you don't know what's in the bush. You're just hoping that two birds are there.

From the text, Onan was sought to raise a child to honor his brother. This was a custom of the Jews. A similar situation would be later posed to Jesus and raise the question of who the woman would be married to in heaven. So, he goes in to have sex with the woman, but instead of contributing his seed to fulfillment, he spills it.
Click to expand...

So what, the man changed his mind and didn't want to father a child by his dead brother's wife. He didn't deserve to die for it. If that's the norm and for the sake of consistency, EVERY Israelite brother who didn't impregnate his dead brother's wife should've been killed.
Thank goodness folks have the commonsense not to practice such nonsense today. We'd have a lot of dead men on our hands.

In Jewish culture, this is an effective raping of the woman. THAT is what displeased God and cost Onan his life. No where in Scripture is there any allusion to Onan being given an ultimatum. He chose poorly and reaped the consequences.
Click to expand...

Dacon, why do you continue to just make up stuff or just flat out fabricate in order to free the biblical god from obvious blame?
If the sex was CONSENTUAL, it was NOT RAPE.
You continue to make up stories in your own mind from already fictional stories, thus making matters worse for the naive reader.
In no way, form or fashion was that rape. Rape is taking sex by force and without the consent of the other party involved.

Here are the verses showing that Onan was commanded by his father, Judah, to have sex with his dead brother's wife, Tamar. But first of all, he asked Onan to do something first....TO MARRY HER. So how could he have raped his own wife?

Genesis 38:6-10: "...Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar. And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.Onan did not do this against her wishes.

Onan practiced a form of birth control that many deadbeat dads today would've done well to have taken heed before they spread their seed to their baby's momma.
If you don't want to take care of them, don't spread your seed around.

Onan is to be applauded for his action. He did more in that one night and was more responsible that one time than many men living today who go off and leave their children for the woman to raise all by herself. He refused to become a deadbeat dad and he unjustly paid the price.
For you to claim that this was rape is not accurate at all, nowhere near being accurate.

Rape is immoral and I would not want Americans to find it acceptable today.
Click to expand...

You need to get your definition of what rape is first before speaking on the subject. If your definition of what rape means is correct, then any and every man who has consentual sex with a woman can be accused of rape.
 
Last edited:
JayRob said:
...Dacon, why do you continue to just make up stuff or just flat out fabricate in order to free the biblical god from obvious blame?
If the sex was CONSENTUAL, it was NOT RAPE.
You continue to make up stories in your own mind from already fictional stories, thus making matters worse for the naive reader.
In no way, form or fashion was that rape. Rape is taking sex by force and without the consent of the other party involved.

Here are the verses showing that Onan was commanded by his father, Judah, to have sex with his dead brother's wife, Tamar. But first of all, he asked Onan to do something first....TO MARRY HER. So how could he have raped his own wife?
...
For you to claim that this was rape is not accurate at all, nowhere near being accurate.
...
You need to get your definition of what rape is first before speaking on the subject. If your definition of what rape means is correct, then any and every man who has consentual sex with a woman can be accused of rape.
Click to expand...
For you to understand that rape - like many other terms - is defined differently in different cultures is narrow and unlearned. Studying the culture of the Scripture makes a huge difference in one's understanding of the Scriptures. You haven't done due diligence on this subject. Furthermore, if you think that a married person cannot rape a spouse then you have still further work to do even in western society.
 
dacontinent said:
For you to understand that rape - like many other terms - is defined differently in different cultures is narrow and unlearned. Studying the culture of the Scripture makes a huge difference in one's understanding of the Scriptures. You haven't done due diligence on this subject. Furthermore, if you think that a married person cannot rape a spouse then you have still further work to do even in western society.
Click to expand...

You intentionally skipped over most of my last post to post this? In that biblical culture, a woman was treated as PROPERTY. She was not an equal to her husband nor was a female equal to the man. If this was the case, then mothers could sell off their sons to their female rapists if that was the case.

In that culture, a married Israelite male had far more rights than the married woman.
Even when one reads the ten commandments, guess what's lumped in the last commandment with asses, maidservants and manservants? The wife is lumped in with them. Shows one how women were looked at during that time. They were a notch above being treated as slaves and they were the property of the man, plain and simple.

This was sanctioned by the biblical god, but folks don't want to talk about that.

Isaiah and Paul seem to have no problem degrading women in the following verses: Isaiah 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Without even blushing, Isaiah is saying that it's literally a CURSE for women to rule over men.
Paul is saying in clear words that women are to keep their mouths shut while in church and if they need to know anything, they need to WAIT UNTIL THEY GET HOME and ask their husband.

One can try and deny that this is in the bible until the cows come home, but that's in plain English right there in black and white. Women are NOT supposed to speak in the church and they're treated as second or even third class citizens.

Now please show were Onan raped Er's wife.
 
Last edited:
Young people are now becoming wise to the fact that the bible is outdated. Many go to church on Sunday simply because they grew up doing so. It's a tradition to them, but when it comes to admitting that they believe in everything that's written in the bible, many say that there's no way they'd follow those outdated and ancient rules.

Tell a woman to not speak in church today as Paul supposedly commanded, and you'd get cussed out right where you stand. LOL!!
 

JayRob said:
Young people are now becoming wise to the fact that the bible is outdated. Many go to church on Sunday simply because they grew up doing so. It's a tradition to them, but when it comes to admitting that they believe in everything that's written in the bible, many say that there's no way they'd follow those outdated and ancient rules.

Tell a woman to not speak in church today as Paul supposedly commanded, and you'd get cussed out right where you stand. LOL!!
Click to expand...
Especially in a church where the woman is the pastor.
 
JayRob said:
You intentionally skipped over most of my last post to post this?
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I took it for what it was worth.

JayRob said:
In that biblical culture, a woman was treated as PROPERTY. She was not an equal to her husband nor was a female equal to the man. If this was the case, then mothers could sell off their sons to their female rapists if that was the case.

In that culture, a married Israelite male had far more rights than the married woman.
Even when one reads the ten commandments, guess what's lumped in the last commandment with asses, maidservants and manservants? The wife is lumped in with them. Shows one how women were looked at during that time. They were a notch above being treated as slaves and they were the property of the man, plain and simple.

This was sanctioned by the biblical god, but folks don't want to talk about that.

Isaiah and Paul seem to have no problem degrading women in the following verses: Isaiah 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
Without even blushing, Isaiah is saying that it's literally a CURSE for women to rule over men.
Paul is saying in clear words that women are to keep their mouths shut while in church and if they need to know anything, they need to WAIT UNTIL THEY GET HOME and ask their husband.

One can try and deny that this is in the bible until the cows come home, but that's in plain English right there in black and white. Women are NOT supposed to speak in the church and they're treated as second or even third class citizens.

Now please show were Onan raped Er's wife.
Click to expand...
And what you continue to fail to understand is that this Onan's travesty was not about the woman at all. It is about the will of God within the culture. You choose not to study up on that so you remain ignorant to it. That is your choice and I will not make any attempt to move you from that.
 
dacontinent; [QUOTE said:
Absolutely. I took it for what it was worth.
Click to expand...

Dacon face it, you have no logical rebuttal to my previous posts because there are none. You know it's accurate and you know it's right on the mark, that's why you had to take it for what it was worth.

Women were treated as prime property in the bible in those days. If men actually lived by both the Old and New Testament laws and statutes, women would STILL be treated like property today.
As a matter of fact, in many religious cultures, women ARE treated like property and why? Because of what's written in their holy books by men who claim that they were inspired to do so by their supposed god.

Thank goodness most women in our society now have the freedoms they don't have via the bible and koran, to do as they please without such shackles holding them back.

And what you continue to fail to understand is that this Onan's travesty was not about the woman at all. It is about the will of God within the culture. You choose not to study up on that so you remain ignorant to it. That is your choice and I will not make any attempt to move you from that.
Click to expand...

Whether it's about the will of the biblical god or not, how is it just for one to be killed because he didn't want to father a baby by a woman he simply didn't love?

Would such nonsense be accepted as being moral and ethical in our society today? Heck no. Thank goodness for that.
 
JayRob said:
...Whether it's about the will of the biblical god or not, how is it just for one to be killed because he didn't want to father a baby by a woman he simply didn't love?

Would such nonsense be accepted as being moral and ethical in our society today? Heck no. Thank goodness for that.
Click to expand...
How you determined he didn't love this woman I do not know. Perhaps you will tell us.

With abortion, euthanasia, pedophilia, mass murder, racism, sex slavery, etc., rampant in our moral society today, you want to hold today’s standard up as a measuring stick??!! I don’t think so. That’s just my opinion.
 
dacontinent; [QUOTE said:
How you determined he didn't love this woman I do not know. Perhaps you will tell us.
Click to expand...

Because he had to be encouraged to marry the woman by his father, but that's just my opinion.

With abortion, euthanasia, pedophilia, mass murder, racism, sex slavery, etc., rampant in our moral society today, you want to hold today’s standard up as a measuring stick??!! I don’t think so. That’s just my opinion.
Click to expand...

For a moment there I thought you were describing the actions the Israelites were ordered to perform on surrounding nations.

As far as a measuring stick is concerned, I sure wouldn't want to hold biblical standards of the Old Testament up as a measuring stick either.
As a matter of fact, I'd gladly hold up most of the standards we live by today over the ancient biblical standards, ESPECIALLY when it comes to how women were treated.

Note: I see you skipped over the part about how women were treated in the Old Testament.:snicker:
 
dacontinent said:
How you determined he didn't love this woman I do not know. Perhaps you will tell us.

With abortion, euthanasia, pedophilia, mass murder, racism, sex slavery, etc., rampant in our moral society today, you want to hold today’s standard up as a measuring stick??!! I don’t think so. That’s just my opinion.
Click to expand...
Why does all this happen in a nation where over 60 percent state is Christian?
 
dacontinent said:
Probably the same reason they happen in nations where over 60 percent are Muslim, Bhuddist, agnostic, etc. People are people; sin is sin. It is why Jesus died for ALL.
Click to expand...

Wrong. The U.S. has the highest crime rate in the world. Muslim nations have some of the lowest as does secular nations like Japan.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top