Play-in Game may be a good thing


Regarding RPI, let's remember one thing: the RPI's we see on tv and in the papers come from collegrpi.com. The guy who does them is pretty accurate but keep in mind that it's not what the NCAA uses. The NCAA's official RPI's could have had Alcorn worse than Winthrop, hence ASU and Siena in the play-in.

Keep in mind, Floyd Kerr is on the men's committee and he's well-respected. I'm sure that if he had an issue with what was going on he would have said something. That's why he's there. Let's be fair to him and give him the benefit of the doubt.

Also, each school has a right to voice it's complaints. The NCAA structure is set up that way. There is a process for each school and conference to become a part of the system. I can tell you right now that an arbitrary email from a fan won't do a thing as far as getting the process changed. I would suggest fans and alumni contact their AD's (unfortunately we don't have a conference commissioner) and voice their opinions. For years black folks have just complained among ourselves; we've never taken the complaint to the proper sources. That's the next step.
If participating in the play-in took a toll on the teams, then the NCAA needs to know. Things won't change unless we do something about it.

Also, when they added the Mountain West, I'm sure the Championships/Competition cabinet was concerned with keeping the at-large bids intact for several different reasons. Who really knows. All I know is that the MEAC and the SWAC each have members on that cabinet (a list of all committee members is public knowledge and on the NCAA website). There's a way to go through the process and a way to make the system work.
 

Click here to visit HBCUSportsShop
This is a good discussion. Here are a few of my feeling (feel free to comment, this is a discussion.<br><br>First, I am a person that tries to see both sides of something <br><br>First, "officially" the game tuesday is part of the tourment. Some call it a play-in-game as if they are not in. THAT IS BAD MARKETING BY THE NCAA. (Note: The NCAA calls the Opening Round Game)<br><br> Some have called it Instutional Racism. IF they singled out the MEAC and SWAC for the game this arguement would be different. I am not saying that there may not be some rasicm, but right now the SWAC is a super weak conference, and that probably has more to do with it. The Alcorn teams in the the 80's would have beat the living hell out of Siena and made this game a laugher. They would have made the NCAA to embarrased to keep it up. But instead, we(alcorn) lost. <br><br>Part of the rational for the 64/65 game is the NCAA wants to keep the number of at large bids at 34. Now if I were the NCAA, what would I do. Well , who usually gets these bids, a middle of the pack team from a major conference. Now given the cash cow here is the TV deal for the tournment, do I want, say, a Michigan State or Alcorn/Siena. Well, the answer to that is easy (although we don't like it) and that ain't racism, that's money. Who do you think has more "influence" on the rules.<br>Some call it a "bad ideal", but in big picture, you can make another BIG school happy and only have a few from a small school unhappy. And whoever wins this is probably gonna get blowed out anyway.<br><br>TO me, the first thing is we just gotta get better. IS our champ better that the 6th place team in the Big 10 or SEC? No matter what else is wrong, we gotta fix that.
 
Lewis and Jag-Tig I respect your opinion, however no matter how the pie is sliced; no matter what justification is used; no matter how eloquent facts are stated, I content that individuals who implement and maintain this selection process that is knowingly unfair is guilty of institutional racism. We have individuals who may sit on these boards or committees who become a part of institutional racism and they are black. Ofter times if these individuals will speak up it adds a different prospective to the decision makers. But if they have no dog in the fight they remain quiet.

Sometimes when a person who is present cannot see the practical implications of what is going on then they become part of the institution. Most people are not in a position to speak because it will effect their livelyhood. I understand this and they should understand this when they accept the position.

Am I upset about the SWAC having to participate in the Playin game, you bet I am. Do I think the ADs will fight the problem? Nooooooooo. All schools share in the revenue of the tournament is my rationale for them not fighting this issue.

Do I know what I am talking about all the time? Nooooooooooo.
But I would rather be wrong in some cases than to accept this crap. When a team win the conference and the tournament there is no logical reason that anyone can come with to keep them out. Either we have automatic bids or we eliminate them.

If the SWAC accepts this ruling then I understand, but as a supporter I will not accept the action of the NCAA Selection Committee. I know they don't care what I think and this is what institutional racism is all about.
 
My 3 Cents

The NCAA has always been perceived by me as a racist organization. I feel that they are an accessory to the crime of exploiting young black athletes. The main culprit would be these large universities that make millions off of African American students and don't educate or care to educate our children. In many instances parental ignorance is also exploited. I also feel that when the NCAA allowed D-1 to be split in 2 tiers in football it was not only racial but socio-economic discrimination against smaller and less lucrative schools. If memory serves me correctly, when S.U. upset #2 in the country Cal-State Fullerton several years ago in baseball, the NCAA rewarded the SWAC by taking our automatic bid away from us to the tourney. Albeit, it was reinstated at a later date. I do concur however that we must get better as a conference in basket ball. I don't think that we are to far from re-establishing ourselves in basketball. Within the last 9 years S.U. upset the ACC champs, TXSU took the defending NCAA champions of the SEC to the final seconds and Alcorn gave a Pac 10 school the scare of their lives in the NCAA tournament. In addition J State took out a Big East team in the NIT. This represents excellent showings three out of the last 9 years of post season play. IMHO, the NCAA is a suspect institution that should be watched closely and engaged by not only HBCU's top administrators but the "so called" mid major (subliminal devaluation) colleges as well......One Black Man's Opinion.....One Love!!!
 
I have a lot I could say about this, but I'll try to be brief. First, I'll say that I agree with Lewis.

Second, one must remember or at least know WHO the NCAA really is. Those who work in the NCAA national office do not have the power. The decisions of the NCAA are made by those same AD's and conference commissioners that you call racist. But, I'm not arguing whether or not they are racist. I do know that the big time schools don't care about the small time schools. Why should they? Is it their responsibility to care about them? Should that be a part of their mission statement?

Heck, the top DIA programs are trying to find a way to remove the mediocre DIA programs (UL-Monroe, etc.) so you know that they don't care about "us". But, come on...isn't that attitude prevelant in everyday society? Sports mirrors society. Why woud you think we would receive fair treatment on the playing field or court? I'm not saying you shouldn't be anger about it, all I'm saying is you need to know who to direct your anger towards.

Remember this: The NCAA is an association. The members of that association are the institutions (student-athletes, AD's, commissioners, etc.) Those members make the rules and they can also change the rules. And, I'm of the opinion that black folks have more power than we think we do.

We could go on and on because the issues are numerous. College athletics is a huge business, we just need to find a way to get a piece of that pie and stop complaining that no one is sharing that pie with us.
 
Jag-Tig, You said it better than I did ( I tried ). It is my belief that let's say if Alcorn State (I won't say my school, Southern) was as BIGTIME as Michigan State (Alumini, National name reconition, potential revenue) it would be a different story. More of the reason they put us here is because we are small time (in thier eyes) not just because we are black (now that don't help either). It won't do us much good crying about we black and the massa' still don't like us. WE GOTTA BE SMARTER AND REALIZE WHAT IT REALLY IS ABOUT. Automatically crying rasicm ain't gonna get us anywhere anymore. The NCAA tournament is about money (for example, moving the #1 seed closer to home).
 
Jag-Tig,

I dont know if you are responding directly to me but if you are everything that you stated I know and if you read my post closely it is in there.

"Those who work in the NCAA national office do not have the power. The decisions of the NCAA are made by those same AD's and conference commissioners that you call racist. But, I'm not arguing whether or not they are racist."

My Post:I feel that they are an ACCESSORY to the crime of exploiting young black athletes.



"I do know that the big time schools don't care about the small time schools. Why should they? Is it their responsibility to care about them? Should that be a part of their mission statement?"

My post: My Post:
The main culprit would be these large universities that make millions off of African American students and don't educate or care to educate our children. (clearly understand their selfish agenda and clearly it would be assinine for one to expect it to be their "mission statment")


"Heck, the top DIA programs are trying to find a way to remove the mediocre DIA programs (UL-Monroe, etc.) so you know that they don't care about "us". But, come on...isn't that attitude prevelant in everyday society? Sports mirrors society. Why woud you think we would receive fair treatment on the playing field or court? I'm not saying you shouldn't be anger about it, all I'm saying is you need to know who to direct your anger towards. Remember this: The NCAA is an association. The members of that association are the institutions (student-athletes, AD's, commissioners, etc.) Those members make the rules and they can also change the rules. And, I'm of the opinion that black folks have more power than we think we do. "



My Post: IMHO, the NCAA is a suspect institution that should be watched closely and engaged by not only HBCU's top administrators but the "so called" mid major (subliminal devaluation) colleges as well.
I also feel that when the NCAA allowed D-1 to be split in 2 tiers in football it was not only racial but socio-economic discrimination against smaller and less lucrative schools. (clearly understand that athletics is a microcosm of society. When there is no justice in our society engagment is necessary. So should the NCAA be engaged. In terms of "so called" medocre programs see sumbliminal messages above)

"We could go on and on because the issues are numerous. College athletics is a huge business, we just need to find a way to get a piece of that pie"

Agree


"and stop complaining that no one is sharing that pie with us"

Disagree: Engagment of proper authorities is the only way to correct a problem.
 
Jag-Tig, the NCAA might pay your bills and stuff but they are a waste of time if you tell me.

Any fool can see you got have $$$ and white skin if your ever going to make a mark in the NCAA. Black folks made the NCAA and will keep on making it what it is today.

The play-in game was a waste of time if you tell me. Why punish a team if they play in a weak conference? What can they do about that?

Look at Hampton, a No, 15 seed with 20+ wins and a NCAA win on their resume'? What gives? We need blacks on that tournament committee. That is the only way we are going to get anything accomplished.
 
PF you had to go there...why?

Well, Panther Fan,

I thought we were having an interesting discussion...I don't believe it was necessary to make it personal, but since you did...

The NCAA may pay my bills, but that has nothing to do with what we are discussing. It also has nothing to do with what I've observed from the inside. Trust me, don't think for one minute that I don't see or hear what goes on. But in saying that I'm also saying that there are tons of ways around the current state of affairs our black schools are in right now. Crying about institutional racism won't improve our lot in life.

Believe me, there are tons of things I don't agree with that occur within college athletics. But, to continue to holla racism is not going to help us. Lewis was right: 'It won't do us much good crying about we black and the massa' still don't like us. WE GOTTA BE SMARTER AND REALIZE WHAT IT REALLY IS ABOUT. Automatically crying rasicm ain't gonna get us anywhere anymore. The NCAA tournament is about money (for example, moving the #1 seed closer to home).'

You said a mouthful when you said we need more blacks on those committees. We also need more blacks athletic administration at schools other than HBCU's. Just like we need more blacks in coaching, etc. So again I say, it's also a societal issue because we need more blacks in every facet of life. Until we increase those numbers, we won't be able to increase the numbers on the committee. And, until HBCU's band together to demand more "representation" on the committees we won't get anywhere. (as a side note: Did any of you know that there is a DIA Athletics Directors' Association? Why can't there be an HBCU Athletic Association? It's a stretch, but you get my drift.) "They" make a way for themselves and we sit around complaining about it.

Believe it or not, there is a method to the madness, but we won't figure out what that is by complaining. That's all I'm trying to say. If you can find a way to make a difference than do that...but to continue to talk about what's wrong with the system is like complaining about the government but you aren't registered to vote. If we became more involved in our own schools and inquired about how things work and why things work the way they do, then maybe we could have a hand in making a difference. But to continue to perpetuate the "I HATE THE NCAA AND BIG TIME SPORTS" mantra does no good. (by the way, what you read in the newspapers about the NCAA is, by most accounts inccurate) Educate yourselves on the process and then work to see what can be done about it.

And on a personal note, I hate seeing my black kids exploited as well. It is truly sad that our black student-athletes are the ones going without. So what are we going to do about it?
 
before I rant, what is the criteria to be on the selection committee? Cash?
They screwed Gonzaga, let an average NC Charlotte team in (prez on committee) and then they create "pods" for homrtown teams. ($$$$).

Only way HBCUs will ever see the bigtime again if segregation comes back. You would not have to worry about RPIs or anything becasue you already know the Dukes and Kentucky's will suffer.

I like your ideas but a lot of HBCUs have presidents who don't care about athletics ? meaning they don't care what happens as long as it is not causing the schools black eyes.

My school, PV, has a president like that. We win, nothing gets done and when we lose we surely have nothing done about it. After we lucked up and won the 98 NCAA bid, he did not do anything to ensure that our program stays on that level. He sat back and watched it go all the way back down and ultimately it led to the firing of our coach.

As a fan, I would love for folks with the "name" recognition to step up and speak out. But it seems like HBCU state institution presidents are nothing but figureheads who will not go out of their way to criticize mainstream ideas.

Alcorn's president or AD should have spoken out about the play-in game in my book. I did not like the way they sat back and accepted this nonsense. You win 20-plus games and a conference title and your not accepted to play in the actual tournament?

Since Whitney is old, he will not cause a ruckus like he should. PV has several coaches like him and that's why we suffer athleticially.

As a fan, going to my president will not help. How do I get in and cause influence on the national level?
 
a side note: Did any of you know that there is a DIA Athletics Directors' Association? Why can't there
be an HBCU Athletic Association? It's a stretch, but you get my drift.) "They" make a way for
themselves and we sit around complaining about it.
Click to expand...
Jag-Tig, this is were we may differ althought your intent is well taken. The first thing an HBCU Athletic Association screams is "help up cause we black". Now I am not saying it is a bad idea, but we need to think broader than that. If we got ALL the schools in the conferences (Black AND WHITE, it ain't just HBCU's playing in that play in game) the could go to the play in game and complain about it, would be a better direction to head.<br><br>As far as the other arguements go (they are taking advantage of OUR black athletes) get over that. The NCAA takes advantage of ALL ATHELETES not just Black. When they did not let us play on thier teams (and they were only taking advange of white players), we complained (and took advantage of our black players ourselves) now that we can play on thier teams and they take advantage of everyone ......<Br><br>And Panther Fan, since you wanna make everything personal, look at your school, at least the white schools give them a scholarship.
 
Lewis,

I agree that the NCAA is an equal oportunity exploiter. I am firmly in favor of some type of stipend for all athletes on the collegiate level or even some type of trust fund. The only thing that concerns me is how it would be regulated and checks and balances to avoid improprieties.
 
equal oportunity?

Do you think the $6 billion CBS TV deal was made due to the play of white basketball players? hardly, take us away from the NCAA Tournament and you'll see if they'll explot the white folks. Take us away from the NCAA period you'll see how much of an impact we have.

Lewis, we offer scholarships through athletics, they just don't come to us. You got more resources than us and you seem to always have trouble landing the star players also.
 
Lewis, we're actually on the same page. I only mentioned the fictious HBCU Association as an example to those folks who want something just for 'us'. I wasn't saying we should have one. And that D IA organization is just a subgroup of AD's, but it's not separate from anything...kinda like being a member of the Black Coaches Association.

PF: You said, "As a fan, going to my president will not help. How do I get in and cause influence on the national level?"

We've always had problems motivating our HBCU administration. If we knew the answer to your question we wouldn't talking about this right now. We wouldn't continue to have the same problems with our conference office. So if our own administration doesn't care about making changes or improvement who else will?

I don't know if making noise through our alumni associations would be the answer. That's a totally different problem. When the boosters and alumni at the Alabamas and the Notre Dames and the Nebraskas make noise and complain, the administration takes notice. Why? Because historically they are giving back the dollars that make things run. And I don't mean the yearly dues (cause unfortuately that's all I can afford right now). I mean MAJOR donations. As black folks we have a lot of bark but no bite. I know we've got business owners who can make a huge statement with a check. Once again, it's about money. You let someone who gives a lot of money to the schools threaten to pull that funding away if changes aren't made. I guarantee things will get done and in a hurry. That's the major difference between 'us' and 'them'. And the folks that make the decision know what our weaknesses are...
 

Click here to visit HBCUSportsShop
Com'on Panther Fan, do you always have to be contrary for no real reason. The NCAA exploit everyone as far as they can. Basketball is different from football which is different from baseball. But they get everything they can out of all of it, irregardless of the final total money.
<br><br>Jag-Tig<br> We are on the same page. Crying racism by itself ain't gonna help.
 
Originally posted by Lewis
Com'on Panther Fan, do you always have to be contrary for no real reason. The NCAA exploit everyone as far as they can. Basketball is different from football which is different from baseball. But they get everything they can out of all of it, irregardless of the final total money.
<br><br>Jag-Tig<br> We are on the same page. Crying racism by itself ain't gonna help.
Click to expand...

With no pun intended, initially I looked at TBF spelling of exploit and felt that he did not understand what was typed. But after reading your post and thinking about his habits it is almost a sure bet that he was being contrary. I agree also with you all on the racism mind set (but cant be ignored). My socio-economic statement along with with mid-major (subliminal devaluation) statement mind set is geared more so to the white colleges that are also in the same boat as we are......Peace
 
how many of our schools have someone with $$$$ in their back pocket? I know we don't off-hand.
 
The play-in game is not good no matter how you slice it.

First, its bad enough being a 16th seed, but to be a play-in team suggests that the teams are the worse of the worse. Given the emphasis on strength of schedule, RPI index, etc., a team (and a conference) who has the play-in stigma will be hard pressed to get quality teams to play them in a non-conference schedule.

Second, some teams with high power ratings and strength of schedule are skating by on the one, two, or three teams in the conference that actually deserve the rating. Fourth, fifth, or sixth place teams in a power conference will automatically have a higher RPI and schedule index just because they play three deserving teams six times a year. And because the three lesser teams play each other four more times, the impact of the higher schedule rating caused by the three top teams which the lesser teams benefit from is compounded (i.e. it appears that they are playing two more teams with high schedule ratings). Look at the impact this has on a team like Gonzaga. Their program has steadily improved over the last few years, yet despite a number six national ranking, the selection committee deemed them a number six seed. I know that there is small college representation on the committee, however, they carry only so many votes and not nearly enough voting power to off-set impacts like this and/or the decisions of the voters from the bigger conferences on the committee.

Third, it adds to the stigma of our schools already discussed. As students, especially our students, see our schools continuously ranked at bottom, they infer (along with their parents) that the quality of ALL of our schools programs are at the bottom. This is the fault of the parents of our kids for thinking this and us as Alumni for not getting the word out that the education at a school does not hinge on the quality of its athletics.

Fourth, I agree that its up to us and the administrators of our schools to work to improve the quality of our programs so that we move beyond play-in status and a 16th seed. It takes money, motivation, and commitment to do this. This is on us and us alone. However, like I stated earlier, a sixteenth seed has recruiting implications and public persona implications for our schools. Its going to take a lot of effort to overcome the stigma associated with this. We're talking, for example, playing on the home courts of the other schools and taking our lumps while we grow, improve our teams, and improve our facilities. We must be ready to continue to support our programs while they go through these growing pains financially and otherwise, and not complain while we are taking our beatings.

Fifth, And its going to take playing the bigger schools. Playing smaller mid-majors with power rating barely better than ours is not going to help us much. Their situation is barely better than ours.

Finally, while I agree that all situations and decisions are not rooted in racism, and that it might be hard to make a case on racism being the cause of the play-in, seeding, and scheduling situation that our institutions face (especially since 80+% of the faces we see on the teams of the other schools are black), it does not mean that I, as an African American, will turn my head and ignore racist actions just because white America doesn't want to deal with it or have their actions inconvenienced. I don't think that that is what's being implied; however, let's not just close our eyes to racism as a factor in decisions when it could be one just because some in society think this as a factor is insulting their character.

Regards.
 
At the next NCAA meeting, the NAACP or Jesse should raise "havoc" til the final day of the meeting. :redhot: :redhot:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top