College Admissions: Who should we really let in.

[jsupop33]

Now, I saw in the thread in the "On the Yard" forum where people were saying that SU's new standards were going to hamper their ability to get students but a counter-argument was made that it would increase their graduation rates and pay off in the long run. There was a similar debate here in DC when the University of the District of Columbia decided to raise tuition, increase standards, and create a community college for those students who did not qualify. People in DC protested. UDC really has a bad reputation in this area and it doesn't help that it is surrounded by American, Georgetown, Howard, George Washington, George Mason, UMD, and John Hopkins. I don't blame them for wanting to gain some credibility.

Let me say this, I have no quarrels with SU's new criteria. I have no dog in the fight but I wouldn't be mad if JSU adopted these same standards. Seriously, if a kid can't get atleast a 2.5 in high school, going to a 4 year university right away, might not be the best option.

Trust me, I understand that HBCU's were created and continue to serve the underprivileged and provide them an opportunity to have a better life. I think we must remember that. However, some kids are just not simply ready for a 4 year university after high school. I truly believe that is why we have community colleges. I think we are doing an injustice a lot of times when we let kids in, that we know are unprepared and allow them to rack up student loans, knowing that there is a good chance they won't finish and have mounds of debt waiting on them.

 

[dacontinent]

You are thinking of Jr College for those who did not perform particularly well in HS. The migration to the "community college" label came along to generate more interest for the working class to get extra training and possibly consider bachelors and higher degrees.

When I came to JSU in 1979, there were statements in the school charter that said that part of the school's objective was to give students a chance who would not have a chance at academia elsewhere. I loved that about JSU. Admissions standards were made an issue by the Board of Regents during the summer after my sophomore year. I got into a faculty meeting that Dr. Peoples held and they permitted me to speak. My bottom line was that it doesn't matter so much who you let in, but it does matter who you let out with a degree. The least performer of those who carry your certification will be the measure of your ability to produce.

I think there has to be a floor somewhere. The trouble with GPA's is a 2.5 is not a 2.5 is not 2.5. There are also the entrance exams. So, I think you have to develop a few combinations of stats to establish the floor (GPA, exams, community service, etc) and go from there.

 

[CEE DOG]

Higher admissions doesn't equate to the best people with degrees. Yale and Harvard students are not the best. In reality they are really mediocre. If you ever work with some them, you will be amazed at how they aren't as smart as folks make them out to be. To tell the truth, state universities produce better students and are actually better prepared.

 

[jsupop33]

Higher admissions doesn't equate to the best people with degrees. Yale and Harvard students are not the best. In reality they are really mediocre. If you ever work with some them, you will be amazed at how they aren't as smart as folks make them out to be. To tell the truth, state universities produce better students and are actually better prepared.

Not arguing with that. However, having a less than 33% on-time graduation rate is bad also.

 

[CEE DOG]

Not arguing with that. However, having a less than 33% on-time graduation rate is bad also.

While I agree, you also have to realize those schools pass folks to make themselves look good. We also serve a different kind of student. We serve first generation students, that come from a poor back ground. While we have made advances, we still have a large population of first generation college kids.

 

[jsupop33]

While I agree, you also have to realize those schools pass folks to make themselves look good. We also serve a different kind of student. We serve first generation students, that come from a poor back ground. While we have made advances, we still have a large population of first generation college kids.

I am with you on that one as well. Especially the poor part. That is why I dont want to see our tuitions shoot up. I have met a lot of former hbcu students that now owe 30k with no way of paying back because they didn't finish. Truth be told, some of them shouldn't have been in.

 

[SUJagFan]

My bottom line was that it doesn't matter so much who you let in, but it does matter who you let out with a degree. The least performer of those who carry your certification will be the measure of your ability to produce.

Aren't those two things inherently related? The quality of students entering and the the quality of students graduating? Is it realistic to expect poor performing high school students to improve their scholastic abilities to the level of your better prepared students? Or does the school accommodate them and thus lower the quality of every student's degrees?

Even if the school does maintain high graduation standards, many employers have a hard time reconciling that if a school has low admission standards. The perception is that the degree must have been acquired with low standards also. As we know, perception is reality.

I understand the historical mission of many HBCUs. However, times have changed. We are no longer denied the opportunity to get an education. Education is available to nearly everyone who wants it. Yet, there is a difference between going to school to take some classes and being a scholar. HBCUs must change with the times to stay relevant.

I applaud Southern's new standards. I think they are a move in the right direction.

 

[Storm96]

Since PV raised its admission standards in the 90s, enrollment has steadily increased to over 8,300. Personally, I think we should go up some more. In my opinion, if you can't meet the admission standards then community colleges or open admissions institutions might be a better fit.

 

[jsupop33]

Aren't those two things inherently related? The quality of students entering and the the quality of students graduating? Is it realistic to expect poor performing high school students to improve their scholastic abilities to the level of your better prepared students? Or does the school accommodate them and thus lower the quality of every student's degrees?

Even if the school does maintain high graduation standards, many employers have a hard time reconciling that if a school has low admission standards. The perception is that the degree must have been acquired with low standards also. As we know, perception is reality.

This the problem that UDC has. Perception is that it is a school for below average students. The law school gets credibility and a few more programs but I have heard far too many people bashing the school. However, Howard is well respected. Both are HBCU's. I am glad they created a community college for poor performing students.

 

[JR]

Higher admissions doesn't equate to the best people with degrees. Yale and Harvard students are not the best. In reality they are really mediocre. If you ever work with some them, you will be amazed at how they aren't as smart as folks make them out to be. To tell the truth, state universities produce better students and are actually better prepared.

State institutions will always produce the bulk of our best grads. Harvard and Yale are pretty much liberal arts schools for the rich and smart. Most of them just need the degree from those schools and don't have to work to get good jobs. They get connected based on their network. It is usually a platform for them to go on to Law or Medical school. I guess they produce some future MBA or CPA candidates . But in this high tech society. I doubt most of us who are in the Engineering area will work with any of those folks too much. I have not run across any of those Harvard or Yale grads during my time in the Navy or civilian work unless they were Doctors or Lawyers. To me going there is about name for folks. It is a good ole rich boys club. Basically a network for them. LOL. I have more respect for their grad programs than their undergrad programs. Not much separates many schools in undergrad except who they are paying as professors. You get the Cornell Wests at these schools who are famous and that gets them their name. The teachings are the same. No better than ours at HBCUs or at other public institutions.

Now I have met some pretty sharp M.I.T folks. Weird but smart. LOL.

 

[unknown]

While I agree, you also have to realize those schools pass folks to make themselves look good. We also serve a different kind of student. We serve first generation students, that come from a poor back ground. While we have made advances, we still have a large population of first generation college kids.

Please dont think that just applies to PWC's though... Ill leave that one at that.

 

[unknown]

State institutions will always produce the bulk of our best grads. Harvard and Yale are pretty much liberal arts schools for the rich and smart. Most of them just need the degree from those schools and don't have to work to get good jobs. They get connected based on their network. It is usually a platform for them to go on to Law or Medical school. I guess they produce some future MBA or CPA candidates . But in this high tech society. I doubt most of us who are in the Engineering area will work with any of those folks too much. I have not run across any of those Harvard or Yale grads during my time in the Navy or civilian work unless they were Doctors or Lawyers. To me going there is about name for folks. It is a good ole rich boys club. Basically a network for them. LOL. I have more respect for their grad programs than their undergrad programs. Not much separates many schools in undergrad except who they are paying as professors. You get the Cornell Wests at these schools who are famous and that gets them their name. The teachings are the same. No better than ours at HBCUs or at other public institutions.

Now I have met some pretty sharp M.I.T folks. Weird but smart. LOL.

I work with 2 MIT grads, a GT grad and a Vanderbilt grad and ill be real... those 2 dudes from MIT could literally build a car from scratch.:lol:

 

[CEE DOG]

Please dont think that just applies to PWC's though... Ill leave that one at that.

That also implies your Georgia Tech. You do know that GT got caught giving out grades like other schools not to long ago? Man I work with some GT grads that can't even read a circuit or let alone wire one. Please, all schools got folks who get away. Also lil bruh, I took some classes at GT, it was easier to cheat there as well. When you got student teachers teaching the class. I have been in this business for darn near 20 years. I have run into folks from all schools. I put it like this, ain't none of them better than the other. :lecture:

 

[skyvolt2000]

I am glad they created a community college for poor performing students.

They are not really for poor perfoming kids. A lot of kids I know attend those schools to get basic classes out of the way before going to a bigger school.

You can avoid thoes entracne exams (depending on the school) if you already have college credit.

We have Early & Middle college in DISD. A kid enters in the 10th grade and by graduation can have 1-5 college credit hours. SAD thing is the main ones going for it are our Latino students.

In fact you have more programs aimmed for first generation colelge students than you know. The thing is getting US to enroll in those programs. Our superintendent oldest son is in Harvard thanks to that program.

Is it realistic to expect poor performing high school students to improve their scholastic abilities to the level of your better prepared students?

Two things-
1) What high school are they coming from? Would you want one of SOC's basketball players after all those grade scandals? A low performing school? High staff turnover?

2) Who is the kid? Would you accept a kid that bounced around 10 different schools? 55% attendance rate? changes in graduation plans yearly? Yearly trips to the AEP? You have to know that kid BEFORE you accept them.

Also you kids that are poorly prepared because of STAFF. Lets say you have a kid that is a good basketball player. How many folks are going to push that kid to take EASIER classes versus harder ones?

Truth be told, some of them shouldn't have been in.

I have no issue with HBCU trying to weed those folks out. They went to school to stay kids a little longer and failed. I know one school sent a few kids to PV and almost all of them came back. Why? Some got into fights former kids from a rival school.

 

[SUJagFan]

Two things-
1) What high school are they coming from? Would you want one of SOC's basketball players after all those grade scandals? A low performing school? High staff turnover?

2) Who is the kid? Would you accept a kid that bounced around 10 different schools? 55% attendance rate? changes in graduation plans yearly? Yearly trips to the AEP? You have to know that kid BEFORE you accept them.

Also you kids that are poorly prepared because of STAFF. Lets say you have a kid that is a good basketball player. How many folks are going to push that kid to take EASIER classes versus harder ones?

What college admissions department has the time or resources to investigate applicant's backgrounds like that? Is is worth it to put forth that much effort to admit a marginal student? It is much more efficient to raise entry requirements and let a student with all of those problems go a different route. The student can still get an education although they may have to go to junior college first.

Sometimes, I think we can over-complicate the issue in our attempt to help and end up making the situation worse for everyone involved - the poor students, the good students and the university.

 

[skyvolt2000]

What college admissions department has the time or resources to investigate applicant's backgrounds like that? Is is worth it to put forth that much effort to admit a marginal student? It is much more efficient to raise entry requirements and let a student with all of those problems go a different route. The student can still get an education although they may have to go to junior college first.

Sometimes, I think we can over-complicate the issue in our attempt to help and end up making the situation worse for everyone involved - the poor students, the good students and the university.

If all your school is getting are marginal students-you might have to.
Some of that you can do once you get either a working document or transcript.

We in Texas have 4 graduation plans. If you see an application with graduation plan 1-you might need to tell that kid do some junior college work and apply for the second semester.

If your school keeps getting kids from a local school district and most don't make it. Might be time to get active in that school district. Create some program where college students can mentor with middle-high school kids.

But I'm with you raise the standards and if parents complain-tell them to be more active in thier schools.

 

[SUJagFan]

If all your school is getting are marginal students-you might have to.
Some of that you can do once you get either a working document or transcript.

We in Texas have 4 graduation plans. If you see an application with graduation plan 1-you might need to tell that kid do some junior college work and apply for the second semester.

If your school keeps getting kids from a local school district and most don't make it. Might be time to get active in that school district. Create some program where college students can mentor with middle-high school kids.

But I'm with you raise the standards and if parents complain-tell them to be more active in thier schools.

We definitely agree there. Parental concern and involvement from an early age would minimize the issue we're discussing.

 

[unknown]

That also implies your Georgia Tech. You do know that GT got caught giving out grades like other schools not to long ago? Man I work with some GT grads that can't even read a circuit or let alone wire one. Please, all schools got folks who get away. Also lil bruh, I took some classes at GT, it was easier to cheat there as well. When you got student teachers teaching the class. I have been in this business for darn near 20 years. I have run into folks from all schools. I put it like this, ain't none of them better than the other. :lecture:

Dude...you must've forgotten I went to HBCU AND PWC? Like I said this is NOT isolated to PWC's. Im not going to throw anyone under the bus but hell I saw whole classes given A's on exams just for showing up for class. I'll just stop there because I could easily go on.

 

[CEE DOG]

Dude...you must've forgotten I went to HBCU AND PWC? Like I said this is NOT isolated to PWC's. Im not going to throw anyone under the bus but hell I saw whole classes given A's on exams just for showing up for class. I'll just stop there because I could easily go on.

I could easily go on about GT. Like i said I work with them all. Ain't none of them better than the others. I know yall like to pump yourself up about these PWC's, but sorry, I ain't gone let it happen. They are just like HBCU's, it's all about the money. They all let students slide by sometimes. The same problems you find at a HBCU is the same thing going on at a PWC. That is my point, but we as black folks like to make it seem like because we on the other side of the tracks it's better. When in reality it is the same. :lecture:

 

[buckwheat]

I could easily go on about GT. Like i said I work with them all. Ain't none of them better than the others. I know yall like to pump yourself up about these PWC's, but sorry, I ain't gone let it happen. They are just like HBCU's, it's all about the money. They all let students slide by sometimes. The same problems you find at a HBCU is the same thing going on at a PWC. That is my point, but we as black folks like to make it seem like because we on the other side of the tracks it's better. When in reality it is the same. :lecture:

I agree with you!

 

[CEE DOG]

I agree with you!

I mean bruh some of these folks act like PWC's got secret wonder twin powers or something. :lol: Life i simple, either you know circuit analysis or you don't, you know calculus or you don't, you can program or you can't, you know physics or you don't, you know linear algebra or linear vectors or you don't. I have even heard folks say "Man our books are more advanced than yalls". :shame: Anything to to make themselves look better. I tell them like this, the only thing you got better than me at a PWC is student loans. :lol: You paid 50K for school and I paid 13K to make the same amount of money you make. You lost, and I won. :lol:

 

[THAMES]

The Formula


State budget cuts .... vaguely disguised as raising of academic standards ... + layoffs & program cuts ... +a few bought off and high paid leaders ... = the demise of HBCU's.

Once it's gone ... it's gone.

The board of regents says there are already too many 4 year colleges in the state of Louisiana. The governor of the state is hell bent on cutting even the flagship LSU to the bone. So what does that say about us?

Once we cave and give up our historical mission ... there will be no reason to exist. They don't really care about us.

Folks ... we don't need this formula to raise our academic standards. It may be a done deal ... but everyone doesn't have to drink this Jim Jones ... Kool Aid.

 

[unknown]

:lol:

I could easily go on about GT. Like i said I work with them all. Ain't none of them better than the others. I know yall like to pump yourself up about these PWC's, but sorry, I ain't gone let it happen. They are just like HBCU's, it's all about the money. They all let students slide by sometimes. The same problems you find at a HBCU is the same thing going on at a PWC. That is my point, but we as black folks like to make it seem like because we on the other side of the tracks it's better. When in reality it is the same. :lecture:

Well I could easily say you wasted your time writing this since my bachelors came from Georgia State not GT. But carry on whatever works. And regardless of what you say, there were a TON of things that WERE better. Not all but im sorry.. real is just real. I could start with registration for one and run off a list. You're talking from the outside looking in im talking from actually having ATTENDED two different HBCU's and PWC's. There are obvious differences but this conversation wont be productive so ill just leave it at that.

 

[unknown]

I mean bruh some of these folks act like PWC's got secret wonder twin powers or something. :lol: Life i simple, either you know circuit analysis or you don't, you know calculus or you don't, you can program or you can't, you know physics or you don't, you know linear algebra or linear vectors or you don't. I have even heard folks say "Man our books are more advanced than yalls". :shame: Anything to to make themselves look better. I tell them like this, the only thing you got better than me at a PWC is student loans. :lol: You paid 50K for school and I paid 13K to make the same amount of money you make. You lost, and I won. :lol:

Well for one I didnt pay 50K, for two who's to say you make the same thing I make?:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: lol im done with this topic it wont end well.

 

[CEE DOG]

Well for one I didnt pay 50K, for two who's to say you make the same thing I make?:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: lol im done with this topic it wont end well.

Dude please. I have been in big boy league for years. I don't work on folks budgets, I allow folks to work on mines. :lecture: I love to see how these PWC grads paid all that big time money and knowledge to have to kiss my azz to stay on my charge number. :emlaugh: See when you get to my level bruh, you don't apply for jobs or seek out jobs, folks seek you out an you name your price. :lecture: Plus son, that lil 80k or 90k you make is spending change for me. I couldn't even live off of that shyt. If you can't go to Vegas and loose 20K and not worry about it, don't come to my table.