Why Is There A Need for A Hell Fire?

[Tpop33]

You say it's enlightening, then you turn around and say it's not healthy? Who is it not healthy for? Christians? Non-believers? Is that why you want it to end? I can assure you that as far as I know, I'm in good health, physically, mentally and spiritually. Debating on a forum is not going to cause me to fall apart. LOL!!

Why do you think (notice I didn't say feel, I can separate the two, feelings and beliefs can be mutually exclusive), any discussion, debate, or argument can't be enlightening as well as unhealthy? Well I'm glad you are faring well and I hope JR and DA are also, but the term was not meant in the physical sense, but more in the mental sense and as you already pointed out you're fine, and again that is good. I find it enlightening, but I'm different that way, but someone else may not. Which is probably why they've not contributed to the discussion.

But since I know this discussion will continue, then let me point out something;

It's not healthy, yet you're going to add more to it? Oh, ok. I knew there was an ulterior motive.

Nope not an ulterior motive, just wanted to comment on something, and as far as facts go, it is in the Bible, not something I made up, and I took the most literal stance I could.

You're leaving out more details that you don't seem to be aware of as it pertains to the garden of Eden. Adam eating from a tree? A piece of fruit being eaten caused man's downfall? That's not all there is to. Missing books of the bible add more to this subject as does Ezekiel 28.
Ok we already covered in Bible verses 101 that Adam took a bite from a fruit, from a tree called the "Tree of Knowledge", and it was not a piece of fruit that caused man's downfall, it was... say it with me now... DISOBEDIENCE, right, now go write it down there will be a quiz on it later. And what details have I left out, again I'm being literal, or did the Bible leave out details that did not satisfy your curiosity/concern?

 

[Tpop33]

It seems that the average fundamental Christian don't want ask the question as to why the serpent (Lucifer) was allowed in the garden in the first place.
Why is that? If you want to add to the discussion, I'd think you'd want to be as honest and objective as possible.
I'll ask you, and you may or may not answer: "why was the serpent allowed in the garden in the first place, to tempt weaker vessels?" Perhaps you can give an objective answer because I'm very curious as to why it occurred.

Your question of why the serpent was allowed in was it to test the weaker vesels, maybe so, (and for you I'll state it this way) the story of Job, says that God allowed Satan to tempt him (Job) and he fared well, yes he had to loose everything but gained more after the fact, Think of it this way, how do you make steel harder? You send it through fire, think of a blacksmith forging a sword. It goes through fire, gets beat a little, then a little more fire, and more beating, and back and forth until the blacksmith has something a king could be proud of

Ok you dont me, I am not your average nor fundamental Christian . I can be your best friend or your worst enemy when it comes to this conversation and make it so that it becomes endless.

As for your question about why the serpent was in the garden, I don't know, I wasnt there.
But you are right in the fact that people should ask questions. I do all the time, I am glad you have questions, but unfortunately we dont have all if many or any of the answers. Frankly I just dont believe the whole amoeba came out of the primordial ooze and thats how human life started, just seems to coincidental and convenient for non believers just as religion is to convenient for believers of any faith.

Your question of why the serpent was allowed in was it to test the weaker vesels, maybe so, (and for you I'll state it this way) the story of Job, says that God allowed Satan to tempt him (Job) and he fared well, yes he had to loose everything but gained more after the fact, Think of it this way, how do you make steel harder? You send it through fire, think of a blacksmith forging a sword. It goes through fire, gets beat a little, then a little more fire, and more beating, and back and forth until the blacksmith has something a king could be proud of.


Sorry for the number of posts, there was a paragraph the forum had and issue with and would not let me post something pertaining to the words beginning an advocate of satan but written using the four letter d word

 

[JayRob]

Wow, I really have no idea where to begin...
Well let me start with this,
Who said I wanted it to "abruptly end"? No where did I say it should end, nor did I suggest it. The statement was as I stated it, one of awe

You clearly hinted to dacon that he should discontinue this discussion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Now you presume to be a god and now what person is feeling by words alone without any factual information or prior knowledge of a person and again no where did I infer that the discussion/debate should end. I used an analogy that any Christian former or present should have and would have understood. Here's a better analogy for you "to continue this discussion is like beating a dead horse" Is that better?
In relation to the verse used, it was to help emphasize my point to DA and RB, but I guess you missed it, because you said
Have you really grown more in intellect or as a person through this discussion? You seem to have more questions, than answers, and no answer seems to be good enough. (I'll discuss this further at the end of this)

Sometimes it is like beating a dead horse, but sometimes it's growing in intellect a bit as well. Fact of the matter is that my mind is open to learning more, just as long as it's proven and supported by facts.
Much of the bible can't be supported by anything except an empty faith. No history, no archaeological data, no geological data, no nothing. Just simply words put on material and folks are expected to blindly accept it. That's what it boils down to.

Your analogy using President Obama, " was/is out of context as it pertains to this topic. For President Obama to debate, its about winning, (lower taxes, more jobs, green energy, etc) not just discussing, so that the Reps or the Dems can grow intellectually or on a personal level.

It wasn't out of context. It was the principle of the matter I was referring to, not necessarily the context of the matter.

I agree there is nothing wrong with respectful debating, and yes the three of you have been very respectful, which is usually hard to find when debating a topic of this sort, but again you think I'm allowing personal feelings to enter into this, go back and read above comment, and the same goes for as it relates to why I decided to speak now, it is to get wrapped up in these types of discussions.

You seemed to have a personal agenda when you quoted from the bible. I have an idea that you were standing up for the bible and there's nothing wrong with that. You have that right. Oftentimes I can read between the lines.

 

[JayRob]

Why do you think (notice I didn't say feel, I can separate the two, feelings and beliefs can be mutually exclusive), any discussion, debate, or argument can't be enlightening as well as unhealthy? Well I'm glad you are faring well and I hope JR and DA are also, but the term was not meant in the physical sense, but more in the mental sense and as you already pointed out you're fine, and again that is good. I find it enlightening, but I'm different that way, but someone else may not. Which is probably why they've not contributed to the discussion.

This is a public forum, so one is free to post if he or she pleases. They don't have to post, but they are free to read each post as well.
I'm still trying to understand how it's mentally unhealthy to debate on a public forum. I'm not being stressed out in any form or fashion because I can actually prove most of what I'm talking about.

Nope not an ulterior motive, just wanted to comment on something, and as far as facts go, it is in the Bible, not something I made up, and I took the most literal stance I could.

Most things in the bible are made up. I could list a hundred things in the bible that are totally made up and unprovable.
Didn't you just mention that you walk by faith? Faith is believing in something that's not there, but you're hoping that it comes to pass. Is that accurate enough?

Ok we already covered in Bible verses 101 that Adam took a bite from a fruit, from a tree called the "Tree of Knowledge", and it was not a piece of fruit that caused man's downfall, it was... say it with me now... DISOBEDIENCE, right, now go write it down there will be a quiz on it later. And what details have I left out, again I'm being literal, or did the Bible leave out details that did not satisfy your curiosity/concern?

When did "we" cover bible verses 101?
Who was this Adam? Where is the proof that he ever existed? Where was this garden of Eden located and the evidence that it ever did? How do you know that there even was an Adam to disobey in the first place? Who wrote the book of Genesis and where's the proof that he wrote it?
Those questions are only the tip of the iceberg, yet they're legitimate questions that deserve logical answers, especially if one is to be teaching the Genesis story as fact.

 

[JayRob]

Your question of why the serpent was allowed in was it to test the weaker vesels, maybe so, (and for you I'll state it this way)

This has nothing to do with Job. The situation in the garden was completely different from Job's situation. The situation with Adam was warfare that "supposedly" would determine which direction the human race would ultimately go. Job's situation was nowhere near that serious. It only involved him and perhaps a couple of friends and family members.

Do you admit that the serpent was wiser and more powerful than Adam? If you do, you're indirectly admitting that the biblical god wasn't fair and just in putting Adam up against a stronger power than himself. Adam was doomed to disobey if only because of him being spiritually weaker.
In addition, the biblical god KNEW that Adam would fail, yet he still allowed him to be tested. Poor Adam didn't have a chance.

the story of Job, says that God allowed Satan to tempt him (Job) and he fared well, yes he had to loose everything but gained more after the fact, Think of it this way, how do you make steel harder? You send it through fire, think of a blacksmith forging a sword. It goes through fire, gets beat a little, then a little more fire, and more beating, and back and forth until the blacksmith has something a king could be proud of

Job had the holy spirit, so he had assistance, but Adam was never allotted such help. There was no way Adam could overcome the serpent (Lucifer) without the help of the holy spirit. Just telling a person to obey is not all there is to it. If there was, then there'd be no need for the holy spirit who is called the "helper".
I mentioned this to dacon recently. He has yet to show me where Adam had the holy spirit. Perhaps you can.

Ok you dont me, I am not your average nor fundamental Christian . I can be your best friend or your worst enemy when it comes to this conversation and make it so that it becomes endless.

It's your prerogative to be who you want to be. I'm prepared to respond respectfully either way, so have at it.

As for your question about why the serpent was in the garden, I don't know, I wasnt there.

You just hinted that the serpent was there to perhaps make Adam stronger by tempting him to do evil. Thanks for your honesty.

But you are right in the fact that people should ask questions. I do all the time, I am glad you have questions, but unfortunately we dont have all if many or any of the answers.

If you don't have many of the answers, does this mean one should merely accept that he doesn't know the answers simply because it's in the bible, yet still accept the doctrine? I don't think so.

Frankly I just dont believe the whole amoeba came out of the primordial ooze and thats how human life started, just seems to coincidental and convenient for non believers just as religion is to convenient for believers of any faith.

Who believes that? I surely don't.

Your question of why the serpent was allowed in was it to test the weaker vesels, maybe so, (and for you I'll state it this way) the story of Job, says that God allowed Satan to tempt him (Job) and he fared well, yes he had to loose everything but gained more after the fact, Think of it this way, how do you make steel harder? You send it through fire, think of a blacksmith forging a sword. It goes through fire, gets beat a little, then a little more fire, and more beating, and back and forth until the blacksmith has something a king could be proud of.

Why did the biblical god need to test Adam since he already knew that he was the weaker vessel? Sounds kind of redundant to me and illogical.
As mentioned earlier, Adam's situation was completely different from Adam's situation.