dacontinent
Preacher
I have not inferred anything EXCEPT that you probably meant IMPLYING rather than inferring. My ^^^^ reference was to JagHammer.
Have a good day.
Why doesn't Joseph get celebrated like Mary?
- Thread starter jsupop33
- Start date
Have a good day.
JayRob
TigaPaw
No, I meant inferred which means to conclude or deduce.
dacontinent
Preacher
Thank you for correcting my inference.
Again, my implication was a commendation to JagHammer on his perspective.
JayRob
TigaPaw
You better watch it dacon. Your folks gone get on you again for replying back.:lol::smh:
Dr H..
Active Member
JR
Something is wrong with you.
Joseph, did not know his father – well the same can be said about all of us, because we are only going on what we are told.
Two fathers, to explain this is quite simple, take and moment and read Deuteronomy 25:5-6.
Note: if you have studied the bible for years, then you would understand how Joseph “had” two fathers. It’s called the Jewish Levirite laws – go and study the law. If you have taken a moment to use two useful object pen and paper and start writhing you have concluded that Heli was Joseph's Father in Law.
The last person that challenged me on the SWAC Board, several years ago "got embarassed" so don't count your chickens before they hatch...
There is no way “then I could be wrong” that you do not understand adoption or how an individual can have two fathers –
A woman can be pregnant, husband dies and she re-marries. The child, would not know his “natural father” he would know and have a relationship with his mother second husband, which he would refer to as his father – but to an outsider the second husband, would be considered as the child’s stepfather.
Something is wrong with you.
Joseph, did not know his father – well the same can be said about all of us, because we are only going on what we are told.
Two fathers, to explain this is quite simple, take and moment and read Deuteronomy 25:5-6.
Note: if you have studied the bible for years, then you would understand how Joseph “had” two fathers. It’s called the Jewish Levirite laws – go and study the law. If you have taken a moment to use two useful object pen and paper and start writhing you have concluded that Heli was Joseph's Father in Law.
The last person that challenged me on the SWAC Board, several years ago "got embarassed" so don't count your chickens before they hatch...
There is no way “then I could be wrong” that you do not understand adoption or how an individual can have two fathers –
A woman can be pregnant, husband dies and she re-marries. The child, would not know his “natural father” he would know and have a relationship with his mother second husband, which he would refer to as his father – but to an outsider the second husband, would be considered as the child’s stepfather.
illinijag
Called to Serve
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).
Jsupop33, interesting discussion....
As Christians discussing spiritual things among Christians, all that we discuss must have Christ in focus; if not, we focus too much on man (in this case Joseph, Mary and earthly fathers) and not on how such centers around Christ. Thus, we will spend all our time debating the greatness (or the lack there of) of man and conclude with a man centered solution, which takes us far away from Christ.
Joseph did a good thing but not Joseph but the spirit of God that worked in him. Joseph actions were not typical but extraordinary. Why, because God did an extraordinary work in Joseph. So it is not Joseph whom we should attribute the greatness, it is God. Joseph also portrays (typifies, reflects, a picture of) the love of God in Christ to His redeemed elect by not forsaking Mary, given the traditional manner for which such matters would have been handle. I doubt if Joseph cared about receiving glory from man; Joseph actions glorified God. Glory of man by man means nothing to God.
1 Corinthians 1:31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
2 Corinthians 10:12. For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
As far as Mary (Joseph wife / earthly mother of Christ), we err greatly when we compare her earthly glory to that of Joseph or worst, when we praise her. Debating why people honor Mary more than Joseph has no spiritual merit. However, if we see Christ through Mary we see where honor truly resides. God used a poor humble vessel, who had no earthly honor, to give birth to the Savior of the World. Thus, Mary was given an honor from a Great God who deserves all of the Glory.
Jesus would always redirect man’s tendencies to convey honor of man back to Himself and His work, even when such honor was given to His earthy mom.
Luke 11:27-28. And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Matthew 12:46-50. While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Luke 10:17-19. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
If man seeks to honor man or woman (living or dead) and thinks of that person as god like or equal to God; builds status of them, bow to them and/or kiss their rings; we my find ourselves one day praying to them or praying in their name. Maybe this is already being done. Such is an abomination to God; a God who shares His Glory with no one.
Isaiah 42:8. I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Also, if Fatherhood is devalued, it has nothing to do with the world honoring Mary above Joseph. Such is the result of man failing to be the Father God commanded him to be. If your men's retreat discussion was referencing Fatherhood in the black community, it is a mystery to me why God allows this problem to be more profuse in our community.
Good Day and God Bless
Again, this message is for those who are saved by Grace through the Person and Work of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As with all messages that exhorts the Lord and Savior, this is to all who would have a listening ear. However, to those who hate God’s word, please feel free to disregard; lest through me I have caused you to find offense in Holy God I so faithfully serve.
Jsupop33, interesting discussion....
As Christians discussing spiritual things among Christians, all that we discuss must have Christ in focus; if not, we focus too much on man (in this case Joseph, Mary and earthly fathers) and not on how such centers around Christ. Thus, we will spend all our time debating the greatness (or the lack there of) of man and conclude with a man centered solution, which takes us far away from Christ.
Joseph did a good thing but not Joseph but the spirit of God that worked in him. Joseph actions were not typical but extraordinary. Why, because God did an extraordinary work in Joseph. So it is not Joseph whom we should attribute the greatness, it is God. Joseph also portrays (typifies, reflects, a picture of) the love of God in Christ to His redeemed elect by not forsaking Mary, given the traditional manner for which such matters would have been handle. I doubt if Joseph cared about receiving glory from man; Joseph actions glorified God. Glory of man by man means nothing to God.
1 Corinthians 1:31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
2 Corinthians 10:12. For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.
As far as Mary (Joseph wife / earthly mother of Christ), we err greatly when we compare her earthly glory to that of Joseph or worst, when we praise her. Debating why people honor Mary more than Joseph has no spiritual merit. However, if we see Christ through Mary we see where honor truly resides. God used a poor humble vessel, who had no earthly honor, to give birth to the Savior of the World. Thus, Mary was given an honor from a Great God who deserves all of the Glory.
Jesus would always redirect man’s tendencies to convey honor of man back to Himself and His work, even when such honor was given to His earthy mom.
Luke 11:27-28. And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Matthew 12:46-50. While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Luke 10:17-19. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
If man seeks to honor man or woman (living or dead) and thinks of that person as god like or equal to God; builds status of them, bow to them and/or kiss their rings; we my find ourselves one day praying to them or praying in their name. Maybe this is already being done. Such is an abomination to God; a God who shares His Glory with no one.
Isaiah 42:8. I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Also, if Fatherhood is devalued, it has nothing to do with the world honoring Mary above Joseph. Such is the result of man failing to be the Father God commanded him to be. If your men's retreat discussion was referencing Fatherhood in the black community, it is a mystery to me why God allows this problem to be more profuse in our community.
Good Day and God Bless
Again, this message is for those who are saved by Grace through the Person and Work of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As with all messages that exhorts the Lord and Savior, this is to all who would have a listening ear. However, to those who hate God’s word, please feel free to disregard; lest through me I have caused you to find offense in Holy God I so faithfully serve.
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JayRob
TigaPaw
Dr H.. [QUOTE said:
What's wrong with me? I feel fine.
Another useless comment. Many of us can know who our father is, and how? It's called DNA testing. You're just making up stuff to coverup a major biblical blunder.
Deut. 25:5-6. If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.
And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.
Where's biblical evidence that this actually occurred? You're making up a wild guess at best. Where did Joseph's biological father die in the bible to begin with? If that was the case, BOTH fathers would be in the same geneology, one following the other.
In addition, if your theory is correct (which it isn't), why are the other names in the geneologies different? If it's the SAME brother, the names in the geneologies would be the same due to hereditary ties and genetics alone but the names are completely different. Nice try, but try again.
You didn't even touch upon the other contradicting names in the geneologies because you can't, no matter how much you try. I give you credit for trying though.:tup:
Like I stated earlier, if your theory is correct, the geneologies still would be the same because the other brother would have married the wife of the deceased brother. This would mean that the brother's geneology and hereditary history would've been exactly the same all the way up until the father. This is not the case.
Look at both geneologies, they're completely different, thus debunking your theory. The geneology listed in Matthew 1:1-16 is totally different from the one in Luke 3:23-38.
Dr. H, it's not my intention to embarass anyone, however sometimes that happens regardless.
Fact of the matter simply is that many folks think they know the bible, but when it comes down to it, they don't really know it as well as they'd previously thought.
Many folks rely on sheer faith without checking into the history of the bible. I made this mistake as well. I must admit that I was wrong to do so.
Many don't know it's history, the contradictions within it, the historical inaccuracies, the prophetic inaccuracies, the archaeological inaccuracies, the plethora of plagiaristic writings within it and the unscientific data within it's pages. They don't know and they don't seem to want anyone else to know either, so they talk others into not asking questions or responding, even if it's out of sincere curiosity.
When it comes to the bible, it has some good points and not so good points and then some outright terrible points. It's honesty to talk about all of the above, not just the good deeds of the bible.
Dr. H, I commend you for your efforts, but according to the bible, the Jesus character never claimed Joseph as HIS father. I gave you the verse where he told Joseph TO HIS FACE, that I MUST BE ABOUT MY FATHER'S BUSINESS, and he was only twelve years old when he said it.
Where in the bible did the Jesus character claim Joseph as his father?
On the other hand, if Jesus was the god of the Old Testament (which the bible confirms), it simply means that it was HIS spirit that impregnated Mary thus making Jesus his own daddy. LOL!!
Most of that's basic knowledge, but please show me where the Jesus character, from his own mouth ever claimed Joseph to be his father. Whenever he said "father", he never intended for it to mean Joseph, not one time. If he didn't, how can you?
Please show me ONE verse where Jesus ever referred to Joseph as his father.
dacontinent
Preacher
Illinijag ... nice post; well-stated.
In similar fashion, we know that Jesus and Joseph were interacting at least until age 12. We also read Luke 2:48 where Mary refers to Joseph as Jesus' father. V.49 comes the declaration about His Father's business...V.51 the explanation that Mary and Joseph had no clue as to what that meant ... V.52 that Jesus remained subject to THEM.
How would Jesus have referred to Joseph? What would he have used to call him for assistance or referred to him when in conversation with another?
One more thing ... many Jewish scholars who dare to delve into the geneologies validate the lineage in Matthew through Joseph and the lineage in Luke through Mary, showing that both parents descended from David.
Just food for more conversation ... which has absolutely nothing to do with honoring Joseph or Mary.
Just to help the conversation along ... I don't recall a specific biblical reference to a brother and widow marrying et. al, but that does not mean that it did not occur. However, application of the law does occur in Ruth 4. Makes for a nice read.
In similar fashion, we know that Jesus and Joseph were interacting at least until age 12. We also read Luke 2:48 where Mary refers to Joseph as Jesus' father. V.49 comes the declaration about His Father's business...V.51 the explanation that Mary and Joseph had no clue as to what that meant ... V.52 that Jesus remained subject to THEM.
How would Jesus have referred to Joseph? What would he have used to call him for assistance or referred to him when in conversation with another?
One more thing ... many Jewish scholars who dare to delve into the geneologies validate the lineage in Matthew through Joseph and the lineage in Luke through Mary, showing that both parents descended from David.
Just food for more conversation ... which has absolutely nothing to do with honoring Joseph or Mary.
JayRob
TigaPaw
dacontinent
Preacher
:lmao:
JayRob
TigaPaw
In addition, one of the more illogical quirks of Christianity is that Jesus is "fully god and fully man", as is often said.
He's not a distinct person from god, he IS god. That's all well and good until you apply a modicum of logic to it for two seconds. Here are some of the glaring anomalies that cannot be explained using simple logic:
--The biblical god supernaturally impregnates Mary, so Jesus is his own father.
--Jesus prays to god. That means he prays to himself.
--He knew what he wanted to ask himself before he prayed, then granted (or not) his own request.:lol:
--Jesus offers himself to god on our behalf as a sacrifice of atonement – so god is sacrificing himself to himself.
--He ascends to heaven and sits at the right hand of god, meaning that he is literally beside himself.:lol:
In 2 Samuel it says: "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22.
It says there is NO god besides you. If there was no god anywhere else (according to 2 Samuel), then Jesus was the ONLY god of the Old Testament....until the New Testament came along, then there came to be another god called the father.
So putting the numbers together, Jesus was the god of the Old Testament and he was his own father after impregnating Mary, his soon to be mother.
He's not a distinct person from god, he IS god. That's all well and good until you apply a modicum of logic to it for two seconds. Here are some of the glaring anomalies that cannot be explained using simple logic:
--The biblical god supernaturally impregnates Mary, so Jesus is his own father.
--Jesus prays to god. That means he prays to himself.
--He knew what he wanted to ask himself before he prayed, then granted (or not) his own request.:lol:
--Jesus offers himself to god on our behalf as a sacrifice of atonement – so god is sacrificing himself to himself.
--He ascends to heaven and sits at the right hand of god, meaning that he is literally beside himself.:lol:
In 2 Samuel it says: "You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22.
It says there is NO god besides you. If there was no god anywhere else (according to 2 Samuel), then Jesus was the ONLY god of the Old Testament....until the New Testament came along, then there came to be another god called the father.
So putting the numbers together, Jesus was the god of the Old Testament and he was his own father after impregnating Mary, his soon to be mother.
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dacontinent
Preacher
Dr. H,
I was enjoying my laughter in solitude and you come along and want to wake him up again. :smh:
JayRob
TigaPaw
I explained it in detail in post 37. 2 Samuel 7:22, he makes the claim that there's no other god besides the Old Testament god. If there's no other god, then Jesus was clearly the god of the Old Testament. Not until the New Testament came along did ANOTHER god come on the scene.
Here are similar verses:
Psa 86:10 For thou [art] great, and doest wondrous things: thou [art] God alone.
Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.
Deu 32:39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand. (He says I over and over, not WE. I denotes ONE person. The Trinity doctrine was created thousands of years later for ulterior motives, so there was no three in one god when this verse was written.)
Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me...
All of the above verses clearly denote ONE god. Folks will try their best to say otherwise but there's no doubt that the singular pronouns and verbs throughout denote a singular "being".
When the New Testament was written, this other god, AS WELL AS THE TRINITY DOCTRINE, had to be created in order to validate Jesus as being a son. If there was never a father, there could never be a son. So out of sheer magic, the New Testament writers created god the father, Mary being the mother and the son, being the Jesus character.
The Old Testament verses clearly support what I'm saying. There was ONE god in the Old Testament. Jesus was that one god.
According to the New Testament, this god impregnated Mary. She became pregnant. The god of the Old Testament became human, meaning that the Old Testament god impregnated Mary and fathered HIMSELF, who became Jesus.
That's as clear as day.
I know this is shocking, but it's right there in the bible.
So in short, Jesus was his own father; the son, being his own father, impregnated his mother and she bore the person who impregnated her in the first place.
If you or anyone else can provide Old Testament documentation proving that there is more than one god (in contradiction to 2 Samuel and the other verses), I'd welcome it.
Note: Someone I'm sure will claim that Genesis 1:26 where it says, "let US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness", denotes more than one god.
This could clearly be referring to angels and lower level beings created by the one and only god of the Old Testament because some angels are said to have human qualities.
Inspite of that, the Old Testament verses overwhelmingly support the theory of there being only one god, not three in one or two in one, but one.
JayRob
TigaPaw
It's not Dr. H's fault that you've chosen to voluntarily mute yourself for obvious reasons. You can't hang, so the easy thing to do is bow out.
I do applaud you for hanging in there as long as you did though.:tup:
dacontinent
Preacher
Thanks for being so gracious.
JayRob
TigaPaw
You served your purpose, now it's time for you to rest from your labor.:emlaugh:
Dr H..
Active Member
JR
I sure hope 2 Samuel 7:22 is not the verse you are hanging you hat on to prove your point. This verse / chapter is David's prayer of thanksgiving, nothing more or less.
David prayer is to thank God for His present favor (vv. 18-21), to praise for what God had done in the past (vv. 22-24), to petition for future fulfillment of God's promises (vv. 25-29). David included humility (v. 18), gratitude (v. 19), praise (v.22), remembrance (vv. 23-24), and acknowledgment (vv. 25-29),
David’s attitude - In this prayer David showed a proper attitude toward himself, toward Yahweh, and toward their relationship.
Question: Did Jesus, ever say that He was God, The Father?
Dac, I was just reading, until JR - mentioned "Jesus was his own daddy"
I sure hope 2 Samuel 7:22 is not the verse you are hanging you hat on to prove your point. This verse / chapter is David's prayer of thanksgiving, nothing more or less.
David prayer is to thank God for His present favor (vv. 18-21), to praise for what God had done in the past (vv. 22-24), to petition for future fulfillment of God's promises (vv. 25-29). David included humility (v. 18), gratitude (v. 19), praise (v.22), remembrance (vv. 23-24), and acknowledgment (vv. 25-29),
David’s attitude - In this prayer David showed a proper attitude toward himself, toward Yahweh, and toward their relationship.
Question: Did Jesus, ever say that He was God, The Father?
Dac, I was just reading, until JR - mentioned "Jesus was his own daddy"
JayRob
TigaPaw
Dr. H, I know you saw the other verses I posted. I could've posted several more verses saying the same thing. I know you saw and read the other verses which were saying the same thing.
Simply put, the god of the Old Testament was said to be the Jesus figure. It was not until the New Testament that this god the father theme was created. There was never any father mentioned in the Old Testament. Only one biblical "true" god was mentioned in the Old Testament, not two in one or three in one. Only one god in one was mentioned.
This is even more evidence showing that the Jesus character was his own daddy, after he technically impregnated his physical mother. This is how fiction works and this is how mythology works.
As far as Jesus claiming to be his own daddy, he never mentioned it in the Old Testament. If there was a father lingering around somewhere, he was never mentioned in the Old Testament.
Abraham didn't know about him. Moses didn't know about him. Isaiah didn't know about him. Job didn't know about him. David didn't know about him. Joshua didn't know about him. Isaac didn't know about him.
If there was this father lingering somewhere during the Old Testament period, why didn't any of the so-called great prophets know about him? None of the Israelites spoke about this father.
The Old Testament god (being Jesus) never mentioned this father one time during the entire Old Testament.
This father just appeared in the New Testament all of a sudden. Only the writers of the New Testament knew about this father and why? Because they created him out of nothing to justify the story of a "son" being born.
They knew that if a son was born, he had to have a father, so guess what? They created one to make sense of the story. It's as simple as that.
If there was this father figure, why didn't major prophets like, Moses, Elijah and David know about it?
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dacontinent
Preacher
I was going to try to break up my responses to this but the more I read it, the funnier it got.
JayRob, you should try stand-up comedy with this stuff
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
JayRob
TigaPaw
Why am I not surprised at this response? You're not equipped to respond with logical explanations, so you bail out by doing the easiest, most elementary thing....which is to post icons. Oh well.
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JayRob
TigaPaw
You tell me. Where was this kind of talk during Old Testament times? Where is this father figure mentioned in the Old Testament? Who was the mother in the Old Testament? Now if anybody should post laughing icons all over the place after that question, it should be me.
dacontinent
Preacher
I have no idea at all why you are not surprised. If I were to give them, my explanations would be Biblical and logical. However, I am not going to do that. It is sufficient to allow you to display your understanding and authoritative views for all to see. This way there is no debate and I get to enjoy what I have known for some time.
Thanks for making my day a little lighter.