The end of the sermon


Pops Stargell

New Member
One day while I was at work I asked my co-worker, who is Catholic, how does she know when the sermon or message is about to conclude for that day?

She was like what do you mean?

So I attempted to explain that at the church I go to, and others I've been to, the preachers usually get really excited at end and then music starts to play. Then normally you know that the sermon is about to be over.

She said it did not work that way at her church.

That got me thinking. Is it me, or do most of the preachers end their messages or sermons with these loud, out of breath, wailing, fidgety and bouncy crescendos?

If so, why? I never read anywhere in the Bible where Jesus or his disciples did that with the piano and drums playing in the background while evangelizing.
 
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...That got me thinking. Is it me, or do most of the preachers end their messages or sermons with these loud, out of breath, wailing, fidgety and bouncy crescendos?

If so, why? I never read anywhere in the Bible where Jesus or his disciples did that with the piano and drums playing in the background while evangelizing.
It depends on your exposure.

It is not specific to race, gender, ethnicity, creed or national origin.

It is primarily specific liturgical and homiletic tradition.
 



One day while I was at work I asked my co-worker, who is Catholic, how does she know when the sermon or message is about to conclude for that day?

She was like what do you mean?

So I attempted to explain that at the church I go to, and others I've been to, the preachers usually get really excited at end and then music starts to play. Then normally you know that the sermon is about to be over.

She said it did not work that way at her church.

That got me thinking. Is it me, or do most of the preachers end their messages or sermons with these loud, out of breath, wailing, fidgety and bouncy crescendos?

If so, why? I never read anywhere in the Bible where Jesus or his disciples did that with the piano and drums playing in the background while evangelizing.

It's called exciting the crowd, in other words, Entertainment. Never mind the fact that no one in the congregation has learned anything from the message, but if the ending is exciting, pastor really preached today. :shame: I can't even stay at service anymore if the minister doesn't know what he's talking about.
 
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

One day while I was at work I asked my co-worker, who is Catholic, how does she know when the sermon or message is about to conclude for that day?

She was like what do you mean?

So I attempted to explain that at the church I go to, and others I've been to, the preachers usually get really excited at end and then music starts to play. Then normally you know that the sermon is about to be over.

She said it did not work that way at her church.

That got me thinking. Is it me, or do most of the preachers end their messages or sermons with these loud, out of breath, wailing, fidgety and bouncy crescendos?

If so, why? I never read anywhere in the Bible where Jesus or his disciples did that with the piano and drums playing in the background while evangelizing.

It is wise to question traditional practices to determine the validity and origins of its applications. If you searched the Bible end to end you will not find any means other than the word of God and/or the Preached word that God uses to bring sinners to Him, all else has little if any lasting effect on people. Even with the Written Word or Preached Word, God has to open man's ear before he can truly hear. God does the drawing; God opens the ear via a heart change and God Saves by providing the savior. Any means other than God's Word/Preached Word is using Carnal means. Music, praise dancing, whooping, Gospel comedy shows are the use of Man's wisdom to add to what God has ordained, these are carnal means.

2 Corinthians 10:4. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;

Salvation is a spiritual warfare against Satan's strongholds, we are all born under this stronghold and a war is required to remove our Bondage of Sin. The only weapon we have in this war is:

Ephesians 6:17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God

It's called exciting the crowd, in other words, Entertainment. Never mind the fact that no one in the congregation has learned anything from the message, but if the ending is exciting, pastor really preached today. :shame: I can't even stay at service anymore if the minister doesn't know what he's talking about.

I agree 100%. If anyone wish to test this theory, just ask a person who leaves these emotional driven session "What have you learned?" and then subject their answer to scripture; or better yet, after you leave an emotional driven session ask yourself. Please keep in mind that how we feel has nothing to do with what is right or acceptable to God.

The reason these tactics are used is because the natural man hates the Word of God and finds it to be boring. So instead of man accepting this fact, he add to the word to make it more palatable and thus gives the natural man what he/she likes which is really not the word of God but the entertainment. This has given many Church folk a false sanctuary. Paul encounter this problem also, this is not a new thing.

1 Corinthians 2:1-7. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Sadly, many people believe that this type of entertainment is the work of the Holy Spirit, when in fact it is just the Energy of the Flesh, which has little if any lasting effect.

The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to:
1. Bring not attention to Himself but to Christ and never to Man/Preacher (John 16:13-14)
2. Will give revelation to Christian of the spiritual things they hear and read (John 14:26)
3. Convict the world of sin (John 16:8-11)
4. The Spirit will always war against the flesh/world/things not of God. This is a problem a natural man do not have (Romans 7:15-25 & Galatians 5:17).

There a many other Biblical applications of the Holy Spirit, which are stated in scripture, none of which is reflected in what most, perceived to be the acts of the Holy Spirit.

Good Day and God Bless
 
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...I agree 100%. If anyone wish to test this theory, just ask a person who leaves these emotional driven session "What have you learned?" and then subject their answer to scripture; or better yet, after you leave an emotional driven session ask yourself. Please keep in mind that how we feel has nothing to do with what is right or acceptable to God...
You might be surprised. It was never a problem for me as a child and most certainly not for me as adult. For some people, "whooping" is a distraction and a turn-off so they get nothing because they already turned off their receptors. For others its noise. For others it is just a signal for a conditioned response to wake-up and pay some attention. The bottom line is that it is a simple matter of focus. By the way, I am not a big fan of "whooping" and gleen just as much from Minister Manuscript Reader.

...The reason these tactics are used is because the natural man hates the Word of God and finds it to be boring. So instead of man accepting this fact, he add to the word to make it more palatable and thus gives the natural man what he/she likes which is really not the word of God but the entertainment. This has given many Church folk a false sanctuary. Paul encounter this problem also, this is not a new thing...
This can be true. By the same token, there are people who present great information but have no passion for it. They are not boring; they are simply not believable. How one conveys the Word does not have to add or take away from it. The same One who inspired the written Word ought to be the same one who inspires the Spoken Word AND its presentation.

If we just want to put preaching in a box, just have the minister to write out a manuscript and give it to the youngest capable member of the audience to read it to the congregation. Or, do it like the Quakers: no one is the leader. Whoever quakes with the anointing for the day just gets up and delivers the Word.
 
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

You might be surprised. It was never a problem for me as a child and most certainly not for me as adult. For some people, "whooping" is a distraction and a turn-off so they get nothing because they already turned off their receptors. For others its noise. For others it is just a signal for a conditioned response to wake-up and pay some attention. The bottom line is that it is a simple matter of focus. By the way, I am not a big fan of "whooping" and gleen just as much from Minister Manuscript Reader.

Again, God did not ask man to wake up man with carnal means such as Whooping, God does not need help. God guides the Focus of man via the changing of man's heart; natural man has no basic will to focus on God (Romans 3:10-18). If Whooping wakes a man up, he who whoops is who man will follow, not God. If God has changed your heart to hear through the whooping, such does not prove that whooping is a tool God uses. I know a lot of good gospel-preaching preachers who whoop but I also know (based on scripture) that whooping is an add-on ..an emotional application ..the energy of the flesh and such is a carnal mean.

This can be true. By the same token, there are people who present great information but have no passion for it. They are not boring; they are simply not believable. How one conveys the Word does not have to add or take away from it. The same One who inspired the written Word ought to be the same one who inspires the Spoken Word AND its presentation.

If we just want to put preaching in a box, just have the minister to write out a manuscript and give it to the youngest capable member of the audience to read it to the congregation. Or, do it like the Quakers: no one is the leader. Whoever quakes with the anointing for the day just gets up and delivers the Word.

When has God ask us to seek out passion in lieu of Biblical facts? Jim Jones was passionate; what happened to his flock (those who BELIEVED in his passion)? Passion as a result of spiritual or worldly acts is just energy of the flesh, such may be good or bad. We should only rely on the merits of God's Word, God's preached word and the edification preaching should provide.

Also, as far as manuscripts, I have one that has no whooping, no music or no sound; it is called the Holy Bible and it serves me well; I read it daily and it never bores me.

If a person is bored with Biblical facts because it is not presented to their liking, this may be their problem:

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Also, I thought true belief/Faith comes from the word of God, not a fancy presentation:

Romans 10:17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Please consider this before you make a statement founded more on traditional beliefs/practices than Biblical facts:

Luke 16:15. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

:lecture:Maybe if Paul had Whooped in Troas (Acts 20:5-10), Eutychus would not have gotten bored, fell asleep and fallen out of the window. If Paul had Whoop him to stay awake, Eutychus would not known the true power of an awesome God. God has this thing figured out, He does not need us to add to it.

Good Day and God Bless
 
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).

Again, God did not ask man to wake up man with carnal means such as Whooping, God does not need help. God guides the Focus of man via the changing of man's heart; natural man has no basic will to focus on God (Romans 3:10-18). If Whooping wakes a man up, he who whoops is who man will follow, not God. If God has changed your heart to hear through the whooping, such does not prove that whooping is a tool God uses. I know a lot of good gospel-preaching preachers who whoop but I also know (based on scripture) that whooping is an add-on ..an emotional application ..the energy of the flesh and such is a carnal mean.



When has God ask us to seek out passion in lieu of Biblical facts? Jim Jones was passionate; what happened to his flock (those who BELIEVED in his passion)? Passion as a result of spiritual or worldly acts is just energy of the flesh, such may be good or bad. We should only rely on the merits of God's Word, God's preached word and the edification preaching should provide.

Also, as far as manuscripts, I have one that has no whooping, no music or no sound; it is called the Holy Bible and it serves me well; I read it daily and it never bores me.

If a person is bored with Biblical facts because it is not presented to their liking, this may be their problem:

1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Also, I thought true belief/Faith comes from the word of God, not a fancy presentation:

Romans 10:17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Please consider this before you make a statement founded more on traditional beliefs/practices than Biblical facts:

Luke 16:15. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

:lecture:Maybe if Paul had Whooped in Troas (Acts 20:5-10), Eutychus would not have gotten bored, fell asleep and fallen out of the window. If Paul had Whoop him to stay awake, Eutychus would not known the true power of an awesome God. God has this thing figured out, He does not need us to add to it.

Good Day and God Bless

I read you loud and clear.
  1. Nowhere in scripture is homily discussed. Nowhere. God did leave any direction as to the (lack of) flair to be enjoined in getting the Gospel out. He just told us to do it with honesty and integrity: not adding or taking away from it. In 1 Cor 1:21, Paul characterizes preaching as foolishness. I think that was a little tongue-in-cheek.
  2. Who's to say that Paul didn't whoop and Eutychus went to sleep anyway? That is merely our conjecture.
  3. Why do you assume that passion necessitates an absense of Biblical facts? Are the two mutually exclusive? Agrippa didn't seem to think so.
  4. You might want to check your manuscript. My bible has both whooping and music.
 
I read you loud and clear.
  1. Nowhere in scripture is homily discussed. Nowhere. God did leave any direction as to the (lack of) flair to be enjoined in getting the Gospel out. He just told us to do it with honesty and integrity: not adding or taking away from it. In 1 Cor 1:21, Paul characterizes preaching as foolishness. I think that was a little tongue-in-cheek.
  2. Who's to say that Paul didn't whoop and Eutychus went to sleep anyway? That is merely our conjecture.
  3. Why do you assume that passion necessitates an absense of Biblical facts? Are the two mutually exclusive? Agrippa didn't seem to think so.
  4. You might want to check your manuscript. My bible has both whooping and music.

:lol:HOMILY

Come on preacher, dial it down. It would be better if you use another word or atleast reference homily in the context of your message so all can be edified. Given I do not know what meaning of homily you are referencing, I will wait for your explaination before I reply.

:retard:Homily seem like FLAIR to me....am just a simple guy.:lol:

Good Day and God Bless
 
:lol:HOMILY

Come on preacher, dial it down. It would be better if you use another word or atleast reference homily in the context of your message so all can be edified. Given I do not know what meaning of homily you are referencing, I will wait for your explaination before I reply.

:retard:Homily seem like FLAIR to me....am just a simple guy.:lol:

Good Day and God Bless
Sorry. I thought I was being simple. Let's try this.

Definition of HOMILY
1: a usually short sermon
2: a lecture or discourse on or of a moral theme
3: an inspirational catchphrase; also : platitude

Definition of HOMILETICS
: the art of preaching

I hope these work for everyone.

Blessings on ya.
 
Disclaimer: This message is only to those who believe in the one and only true God, the God who provided the Saviour (Jesus Christ).



It is wise to question traditional practices to determine the validity and origins of its applications. If you searched the Bible end to end you will not find any means other than the word of God and/or the Preached word that God uses to bring sinners to Him, all else has little if any lasting effect on people. Even with the Written Word or Preached Word, God has to open man's ear before he can truly hear. God does the drawing; God opens the ear via a heart change and God Saves by providing the savior. Any means other than God's Word/Preached Word is using Carnal means. Music, praise dancing, whooping, Gospel comedy shows are the use of Man's wisdom to add to what God has ordained, these are carnal means.

2 Corinthians 10:4. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;

Salvation is a spiritual warfare against Satan's strongholds, we are all born under this stronghold and a war is required to remove our Bondage of Sin. The only weapon we have in this war is:

Ephesians 6:17. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God



I agree 100%. If anyone wish to test this theory, just ask a person who leaves these emotional driven session "What have you learned?" and then subject their answer to scripture; or better yet, after you leave an emotional driven session ask yourself. Please keep in mind that how we feel has nothing to do with what is right or acceptable to God.

The reason these tactics are used is because the natural man hates the Word of God and finds it to be boring. So instead of man accepting this fact, he add to the word to make it more palatable and thus gives the natural man what he/she likes which is really not the word of God but the entertainment. This has given many Church folk a false sanctuary. Paul encounter this problem also, this is not a new thing.

1 Corinthians 2:1-7. And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Sadly, many people believe that this type of entertainment is the work of the Holy Spirit, when in fact it is just the Energy of the Flesh, which has little if any lasting effect.

The purpose of the Holy Spirit is to:
1. Bring not attention to Himself but to Christ and never to Man/Preacher (John 16:13-14)
2. Will give revelation to Christian of the spiritual things they hear and read (John 14:26)
3. Convict the world of sin (John 16:8-11)
4. The Spirit will always war against the flesh/world/things not of God. This is a problem a natural man do not have (Romans 7:15-25 & Galatians 5:17).

There a many other Biblical applications of the Holy Spirit, which are stated in scripture, none of which is reflected in what most, perceived to be the acts of the Holy Spirit.

Good Day and God Bless

:tup:
 
Sorry. I thought I was being simple. Let's try this.

Definition of HOMILY
1: a usually short sermon
2: a lecture or discourse on or of a moral theme
3: an inspirational catchphrase; also : platitude

Definition of HOMILETICS
: the art of preaching

I hope these work for everyone.

Blessings on ya.

Never underestimate the value of simple, common and weak things for pride has no desire to reside with such. However, the simple, common and weak things are the means that God uses.

1 Corinthians 1:27. But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Scripture like that make me wanna "Whoop"!

Ok as promised, my reply…..

I read you loud and clear.

Nowhere in scripture is homily discussed. Nowhere. God did leave any direction as to the (lack of) flair to be enjoined in getting the Gospel out. He just told us to do it with honesty and integrity: not adding or taking away from it.

The Bible is not silent on preaching, if one consider the whole council of God (the whole Bible), we know that our first objective is to do/preach for the Glory of God, knowing that it is God and God alone Who saves, for we are just agents delivering a message. We must also fight against our will to judge our success by sight (numbers and applause) and more by faithfulness (our message as it relates to Biblical accuracy). This is what we are to do:

2 Corinthians 5:7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

Romans 1:17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


God provides the increase; we are only to be faithful in doing work that is pleasing to Him. All we need to be able to preach is Prayer (ask, seek & knock), the Holy Spirit (only given to the Saved) and God’s manuscript (The Holy Bible). The Holy Spirit will do as He was promised, He will provide revelation; if any other material is used to provide additional insight, it must be subjected to scripture (God’s Manuscript). In the end, if it pleases God, He will provide increase. Contrary to what most believe, the success of good Preaching is not the approval of the hearers, it is accuracy to Biblical Doctrine. Two of the best Preachers in the Bible (Isaiah and Jeremiah) got their messages directly from God, I don’t think they had any converts; Noah preached for 120 years and only gained eight. Yet, today many see preaching success based on membership rather than the measure of “Judgment, Mercy and Faith†applied in their preaching and practice by their congregants. Judgment, Mercy and Faith were the more important matters Jesus mentioned in Matthew 23:23. Based on what I see, we have strayed from what is right (God’s way) to what is wise (man’s way).

If God did not leave directions for using flair with the Gospel, such must be a tradition man created. You should never try to justify your position based on something not in the Bible. If we follow this approach in search of truth, Truth will have no foundation.

In 1 Cor 1:21, Paul characterizes preaching as foolishness. I think that was a little tongue-in-cheek.

I really don’t know how this scripture apply to our discussion. I assume you know that “foolishness†is how the World view preaching and that this passage does not mean that preaching is actually foolishness. The world will and will continue to believe that preaching is foolishness and we should never modify it so that they will think otherwise.

Who's to say that Paul didn't whoop and Eutychus went to sleep anyway? That is merely our conjecture.

Again, your thesis proves to be an unworthy pursuit, given that the Bible provides no foundation for whooping or any animated approach to preaching. Thus, such must be a tradition man created. We should never do that which the Bible did not say, only because the Bible did not say we should not do it. We must do all things to the Glory of God based on our understanding of the Whole Council of God. God does not use carnal means to do His Work and that is clearly stated in the Bible:

2 Corinthians 10:4. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.

:kaioken:Flair may sparkle but is has no lasting effect: I choose that which will last, God’s Word.

Why do you assume that passion necessitates an absense of Biblical facts?

That is not my assumption, nor did I imply that. Almost all preachers and teachers including myself are passionate and many sometime uses flair (myself including). Passion here reflects the confident of the speaker in his/her message which is a good thing only if the message is truth. My point is that God does not use man’s passion or man’s flair, He only uses His word. Most of us (even those who are saved) still have the fleshly need for approval and often when that is not acknowledged by applauses or amen, we feel as though we have failed; thus we add carnal means (the flair). We should only measure our message against Biblical standard and never to man’s reception. This is just the inherent flaw that we have as seeds of Adam and this is why all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags before God; this is why we need a savior.

Are the two mutually exclusive?

No they are not as far as man having passion and preaching/teaching Biblical fact. They are mutually exlusive as to what God will use to save His elect. Again, if we follow passion only, we open ourselves up to deception (i.e. the likes of Jim Jones).

Agrippa didn't seem to think so.

Agrippa is a poor example to follow, look what passion got him. Agrippa was just like many who see Passion but not the Object of the Passion, which in Paul’s case was Christ.

You might want to check your manuscript. My bible has both whooping and music.
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My Bible does not whoop nor does it sings. It has scriptures, which includes both dance and music. However, never is dancing or music stated as the means God uses to save man nor does it imply that dancing provides revelation to man under sanctification.

Where is the Whooping in the Bible?

Good Day and God Bless
 
At my church, we know the sermon is about the end when the preacher starts to talk about Jesus rising from the dead.
"And on the third day..........."
 
...The Bible is not silent on preaching, if one consider the whole council of God (the whole Bible), we know that our first objective is to do/preach for the Glory of God, knowing that it is God and God alone Who saves, for we are just agents delivering a message. We must also fight against our will to judge our success by sight (numbers and applause) and more by faithfulness (our message as it relates to Biblical accuracy). This is what we are to do:

2 Corinthians 5:7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

Romans 1:17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


God provides the increase; we are only to be faithful in doing work that is pleasing to Him. All we need to be able to preach is Prayer (ask, seek & knock), the Holy Spirit (only given to the Saved) and God’s manuscript (The Holy Bible). The Holy Spirit will do as He was promised, He will provide revelation; if any other material is used to provide additional insight, it must be subjected to scripture (God’s Manuscript). In the end, if it pleases God, He will provide increase. Contrary to what most believe, the success of good Preaching is not the approval of the hearers, it is accuracy to Biblical Doctrine. Two of the best Preachers in the Bible (Isaiah and Jeremiah) got their messages directly from God, I don’t think they had any converts; Noah preached for 120 years and only gained eight. Yet, today many see preaching success based on membership rather than the measure of “Judgment, Mercy and Faith” applied in their preaching and practice by their congregants. Judgment, Mercy and Faith were the more important matters Jesus mentioned in. Based on what I see, we have strayed from what is right (God’s way) to what is wise (man’s way)...
Well thought out and articulated. I agree with you. However, it presents nothing from the scripture on homily/homiletics. NOTHING. The bible is absolutely silent on the subject. Consequently, there are times that it is appropriate to simply preach through articulating the language of the Word. There are times to preach in drama, music, and art. There are times to preach by trumpeting the message. There are times to preach in a whisper. All of these, regardless of the manner, are to be led and directed by the Spirit of God. That is part of the reason why He remains here in the Earth. When we try to box Him with our opinions, we establish or insulate traditions that hinder the lost from believing.

...If God did not leave directions for using flair with the Gospel, such must be a tradition man created. You should never try to justify your position based on something not in the Bible. If we follow this approach in search of truth, Truth will have no foundation...

Again, your thesis proves to be an unworthy pursuit, given that the Bible provides no foundation for whooping or any animated approach to preaching. Thus, such must be a tradition man created. We should never do that which the Bible did not say, only because the Bible did not say we should not do it. We must do all things to the Glory of God based on our understanding of the Whole Council of God. God does not use carnal means to do His Work and that is clearly stated in the Bible:

2 Corinthians 10:4. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.

:kaioken:Flair may sparkle but is has no lasting effect: I choose that which will last, God’s Word...

Where is the Whooping in the Bible?...
Okay. Here is a DIRECTIVE to whoop/flair:

Isa 58:1-8 KJV
1 Cry aloud, spare not , lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. 2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. 3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. 4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. 5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord? 6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? 8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rearward.​

Here is Paul using his own ministry as an example.
1 Cor 9:20-23 KJV
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.​

Nowhere in the scriptures are synthesizers, djembes, claves, steel drums, harpsichords, dulcimers, harmonicas, or washboards addressed as instruments to be used in worship ... or not. But, the scripture does tell us to worship in psalms (songs sung to musical accompaniment), hymns (songs sung a cappella), and spiritual songs (instrumentals). He simply left it for us to decide. In some places that comes out in bluegrass; other places Hebraic, African, raggae, jazz, urban, rap, hip-hop, and even grunge. We measure the success of the delivery by the lives that are changed through the substance of the Word that is delievered and received.


...I really don’t know how this scripture apply to our discussion. I assume you know that “foolishness” is how the World view preaching and that this passage does not mean that preaching is actually foolishness. The world will and will continue to believe that preaching is foolishness and we should never modify it so that they will think otherwise...
It applies because the world will see it as foolishness until it comes to understand that it applies to them.

Why do we not simply stand up and read the text? Simply reading the text IS NOT preaching.

1 Cor 2:14 KJV
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

Hence, we have homiletics/flair/whooping as a tool of unfolding revelation: the task of preaching.



...
That is not my assumption, nor did I imply that. Almost all preachers and teachers including myself are passionate and many sometime uses flair (myself including). Passion here reflects the confident of the speaker in his/her message which is a good thing only if the message is truth. My point is that God does not use man’s passion or man’s flair, He only uses His word. Most of us (even those who are saved) still have the fleshly need for approval and often when that is not acknowledged by applauses or amen, we feel as though we have failed; thus we add carnal means (the flair). We should only measure our message against Biblical standard and never to man’s reception. This is just the inherent flaw that we have as seeds of Adam and this is why all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags before God; this is why we need a savior.
...
There are people who will not listen to Joel Osteen, Billy Graham, TD Jakes, Rod Parsely, Charles Stanley, Chuck Swindoll, Benny Hinn, Marilyn Hickey, Joyce Meyer, nor the late Adrian Rogers, but they will listen to me because of what God has placed in my personality, demeaner, enunciation, articulation,...whatever that those other people don't have. He does the same with you. He uses your passion to speak His Word to people that others simply don't reach. Now, there is nothing for you or I to take credit for outside of being obedient to His active direction. But, our passion and flair is absolutely used by God to reach people. That was true of Jesus and it must be true of us who carry out His commission.

...
Agrippa is a poor example to follow, look what passion got him. Agrippa was just like many who see Passion but not the Object of the Passion, which in Paul’s case was Christ...
Passion got him to pay attention for the first time in his life. The hardness of his heart prevented him from going further.

...
My Bible does not whoop nor does it sings. It has scriptures, which includes both dance and music. However, never is dancing or music stated as the means God uses to save man nor does it imply that dancing provides revelation to man under sanctification.
Your bible whoops all over the place. I pointed out a couple of those earlier. The entire book of Psalms sings as well as Miriam, Moses, Deborah, Jehoshaphat, Jesus & His disciples, and others.
 
Well thought out and articulated. I agree with you. However, it presents nothing from the scripture on homily/homiletics. NOTHING. The bible is absolutely silent on the subject. Consequently, there are times that it is appropriate to simply preach through articulating the language of the Word. There are times to preach in drama, music, and art. There are times to preach by trumpeting the message. There are times to preach in a whisper. All of these, regardless of the manner, are to be led and directed by the Spirit of God. That is part of the reason why He remains here in the Earth. When we try to box Him with our opinions, we establish or insulate traditions that hinder the lost from believing.


Okay. Here is a DIRECTIVE to whoop/flair:

Isa 58:1-8 KJV
1 Cry aloud, spare not , lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. 2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. 3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. 4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. 5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord? 6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? 8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the Lord shall be thy rearward.​

Here is Paul using his own ministry as an example.
1 Cor 9:20-23 KJV
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.​

Nowhere in the scriptures are synthesizers, djembes, claves, steel drums, harpsichords, dulcimers, harmonicas, or washboards addressed as instruments to be used in worship ... or not. But, the scripture does tell us to worship in psalms (songs sung to musical accompaniment), hymns (songs sung a cappella), and spiritual songs (instrumentals). He simply left it for us to decide. In some places that comes out in bluegrass; other places Hebraic, African, raggae, jazz, urban, rap, hip-hop, and even grunge. We measure the success of the delivery by the lives that are changed through the substance of the Word that is delievered and received.



It applies because the world will see it as foolishness until it comes to understand that it applies to them.

Why do we not simply stand up and read the text? Simply reading the text IS NOT preaching.

1 Cor 2:14 KJV
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.​

Hence, we have homiletics/flair/whooping as a tool of unfolding revelation: the task of preaching.




There are people who will not listen to Joel Osteen, Billy Graham, TD Jakes, Rod Parsely, Charles Stanley, Chuck Swindoll, Benny Hinn, Marilyn Hickey, Joyce Meyer, nor the late Adrian Rogers, but they will listen to me because of what God has placed in my personality, demeaner, enunciation, articulation,...whatever that those other people don't have. He does the same with you. He uses your passion to speak His Word to people that others simply don't reach. Now, there is nothing for you or I to take credit for outside of being obedient to His active direction. But, our passion and flair is absolutely used by God to reach people. That was true of Jesus and it must be true of us who carry out His commission.


Passion got him to pay attention for the first time in his life. The hardness of his heart prevented him from going further.


Your bible whoops all over the place. I pointed out a couple of those earlier. The entire book of Psalms sings as well as Miriam, Moses, Deborah, Jehoshaphat, Jesus & His disciples, and others.

I can't find anything here I agree with. We are so far apart I don't even know where to begin. Here is one example. You say the Bible in silent on "how we should preach or how to preach or Homily". If this is true the Bible has failed to provide insight to the only mean God will use to save His Elect. If you are right, this scripture is wrong:

2 Timothy 3:16-17. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

That is enough for me and nothing any man can say will change that. The Bible is not silent to ME on how to preach!

Good Day and God Bless
 



I can't find anything here I agree with. We are so far apart I don't even know where to begin. Here is one example. You say the Bible in silent on "how we should preach or how to preach or Homily". If this is true the Bible has failed to provide insight to the only mean God will use to save His Elect. If you are right, this scripture is wrong:

2 Timothy 3:16-17. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

That is enough for me and nothing any man can say will change that. The Bible is not silent to ME on how to preach!

Good Day and God Bless
The scripture that you reference says nothing about HOW to preach (style/homily). It references WHAT to preach (content) and the objective. The scripture is absolutely correct. All of those things can be accomplished by preaching comedically, dramatically, musically, stoically, etc. How you choose present it (style/homily) is something that is cultivated through your imagination, wisdom, and intellect as guided by the Holy Spirit. This is where homiletics is born in you.

By all means keep preaching. Keep allowing God to express His Word through your personality. Redeem the lost. Disciple the saved. Set the captive free!
 
The scripture that you reference says nothing about HOW to preach (style/homily). It references WHAT to preach (content) and the objective. The scripture is absolutely correct. All of those things can be accomplished by preaching comedically, dramatically, musically, stoically, etc. How you choose present it (style/homily) is something that is cultivated through your imagination, wisdom, and intellect as guided by the Holy Spirit. This is where homiletics is born in you.

By all means keep preaching. Keep allowing God to express His Word through your personality. Redeem the lost. Disciple the saved. Set the captive free!

You actually believed God used that stuff. Those are carnal means. You may filled the church using those things that only mean that people like to be entertained. Such is to live by sight (what is seen).

The Holy Spirit does all of the work. No matter how many books, study groups you attend, or class you take, only the Bible, Prayer, Holy Spirit and if it pleases God he will give you insight. I stand by what I posted %100 but I cannot convey my faith and insight to you, such is done via the Holy Spirit. You speak of Style/Homily, which has nothing to do with conveying God's message; You NEVER SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! Holy Spirit provides the increase not style, or methods (flare/whooping/passion) of man. You cannot work your way to spiritual revelation, such is God Given. He will give you both the desire to study and the insight and you will not need a label for People will be able to see God's work.

No man in need of a Savior cares about HOMILY, they just need a message about a Living Savior and care less about homily (which is not even in the Bible). It is a definition man created to assess or define only that, which is God Given.

Again, God does not used carnal means to save people, if He did, man would have a reason to Boast.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God's word does not entertain, it cuts and destroys strong hold. Most will hate it...

I pray that God will reveal this to you.

Good Day and God Bless
 
You actually believed God used that stuff. Those are carnal means. You may filled the church using those things that only mean that people like to be entertained. Such is to live by sight (what is seen).

The Holy Spirit does all of the work. No matter how many books, study groups you attend, or class you take, only the Bible, Prayer, Holy Spirit and if it pleases God he will give you insight. I stand by what I posted %100 but I cannot convey my faith and insight to you, such is done via the Holy Spirit. You speak of Style/Homily, which has nothing to do with conveying God's message; You NEVER SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! Holy Spirit provides the increase not style, or methods (flare/whooping/passion) of man. You cannot work your way to spiritual revelation, such is God Given. He will give you both the desire to study and the insight and you will not need a label for People will be able to see God's work.

No man in need of a Savior cares about HOMILY, they just need a message about a Living Savior and care less about homily (which is not even in the Bible). It is a definition man created to assess or define only that, which is God Given.

Again, God does not used carnal means to save people, if He did, man would have a reason to Boast.

1 Corinthians 2:4-5. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Ephesians 2:8-10. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God's word does not entertain, it cuts and destroys strong hold. Most will hate it...

I pray that God will reveal this to you.

Good Day and God Bless
Yes, God uses that stuff. No one gets saved BECAUSE of it.

I agree with everything else in your post EXCEPT
 
Illinijag,

Yes, God uses that stuff and things like warm greeters, pleasant and loving people, and clean bathrooms. No one gets saved BECAUSE of it. One more time: HOMILY, WHOPPING, FLAIR, WARM GREETERS, PLEASANT AND LOVING PEOPLE, AND CLEAN BATHROOMS NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL SAVE ANYONE!!! Unbelievers can't even come to Christ when they want to; they must come when they are drawn.

I agree with everything else in your post EXCEPT for one thing: You said ...
...You speak of Style/Homily, which has nothing to do with conveying God's message; You NEVER SPEAK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT! ...

after posting my quote
dacontinent said:
... How you choose present it (style/homily) is something that is cultivated through your imagination, wisdom, and intellect as guided by the Holy Spirit. This is where homiletics is born in you...

Maybe you just looked right past that. It happens to us all.

That has been my point in the entire homily/flair/whooping discussion. Without the leading of the Holy Spirit, all we are doing is making noise and presenting artistry. Working WITH the Holy Spirit, whatever we are doing is taking people to Christ.

As you might close: Good day and God bless!
 
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