That Got Dam* Garner


DonTiger

DonTiger

The One....The Only
Now this is coming from an Astros fan of 23 years (don't try to put me on Social Security, I've been a fan since I was 5) so know that this aint no casual "Fair Weather Fan" Hatin'.

Phil Garner has got to be one of the dumbest managers in post season history. Now, much respect due for what he did to turn this team around and get us into the playoffs but now it seems that we are winning 'in spite of' rather than 'because of' our manager.

I am specifically talking about the way he's handling our pitching staff. WHY IN THE HELL IS HE STARTING MUNRO THIS AFTERNOON !!!!!!!!!
I mean, the only starting pitcher with a loss in this series is Munro.(I'll get to that sorry as* bull pen in a minute) The only starting pitcher with an era over the moon and into the stars is Munro. The last time we pitched the Rocket on three days rest he went 5 and only gave up 2 runs. WE'VE GOT A CHANCE TO GO TO THE GOT DAM* WORLD SERIES GARNER......GO OUT WITH YOUR BEST GUNS BLAZIN' !!!!!!! Munro probably gone get knocked out by the 4th and we gone have to go to the pen. AND I BET YOU THAT GOT DAM* GARNER BRING IN QUALLS AGAIN !!!!!!!! If I see Qualls warming up in the Bull Pen one more time I'm riding to St. Louis to slap Garner myself. Qualls done gave-up about 50 runs in the post season and Garner keep going to him in middle relief like he Marioano Rivera or something. I see it happening already....Start Munro, go to Qualls, we down by 5 runs before the 6th inning. Now what you gone do but pray for the best in a game 7 at night in cold as* St. Louis....

THAT GOT DAM* PHIL GARNER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
He can't start anyone else other than Munro. Clemens and Oswalt are needed for a possible game 7. Munro COULD end up giving them 6 decent innings.
 



I think Phil Gardner is right. Clemons can't start on 3 days rest back-to-back. He's too old for that. I think Houston can score enough runs to help Munro win today. If not you have a fully rested Clemons for game 7.
 
Or Munro could do what he's been doing the entire playoffs.

Why go into a crap shoot with Rocket on 4 days rest instead of trying to end it while you can with Rocket on 3 days rest. He PROBABLY WILL give you 6 decent innings.
 
Hey Que said:
I think Phil Gardner is right. Clemons can't start on 3 days rest back-to-back. He's too old for that. I think Houston can score enough runs to help Munro win today. If not you have a fully rested Clemons for game 7.
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You guys keep referring to a game 7. Why take the chance? Ask the Yankees if it's cool to play for a game 7.
 
DonTiger said:
Phil Garner has got to be one of the dumbest managers in post season history. Now, much respect due for what he did to turn this team around and get us into the playoffs but now it seems that we are winning 'in spite of' rather than 'because of' our manager.

I am specifically talking about the way he's handling our pitching staff. WHY IN THE HELL IS HE STARTING MUNRO THIS AFTERNOON !!!!!!!!!
I mean, the only starting pitcher with a loss in this series is Munro.(I'll get to that sorry as* bull pen in a minute) The only starting pitcher with an era over the moon and into the stars is Munro. The last time we pitched the Rocket on three days rest he went 5 and only gave up 2 runs. WE'VE GOT A CHANCE TO GO TO THE GOT DAM* WORLD SERIES GARNER......GO OUT WITH YOUR BEST GUNS BLAZIN' !!!!!!!

THAT GOT DAM* PHIL GARNER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Well I'm a avid baseball fan and coach myself. I would have to agree with Garner on this one and start Munro. And to correct you, none of the Astros starters have lost a single game in this series. In game 1, Garner jumped the gun and pulled Backe in the 5th inning when he had 2 outs. He made him intentionally walk Pujols to get to Edmonds who was not having a good post season at the time. He should have left Backe in to pitch to Edmonds. Qualls ended up giving up 5 runs for the 1 inning that he pitched(5th and part of the 6th). In game 2 Garner did the same thing to Munro and pulled him in 5th. He was pitching a decent game. This is the game where Miceli gave up 2 home runs in the 8th. Now I understand about wanting the Rocket to pitch in this game but his overall record on 3 days rest is not that good and he got a no decision in that game he did pitch on 3 days rest. This game is in St Louis where the temp will be lower and not good for a pitcher overall. I'd rather hold him for either a game 1 in the World Series or for game 7 if needed. You have to look at the whole picture and see where it would get you. If you use Clemons in game 6 and lose then you have to use Oswalt on 3 days rest for game 7. Now you would not have either one of those pitchers to start in the World Series until game 3 and 4 and then you would have to depend on Backe & Munro for games 1,2 and possibly 5 & 6 when you could have set your rotation up starting with your 2 aces.

Oh and Munro's playoff ERA is 5.79, the pitcher that St Louis is sending out(Morris) is 5.25. The Astros have got to get the bats rolling like they did in the last game against Atlanta and end it early and often. If they let St. Louis stay close they will torch them for runs.
 
DonTiger said:
You guys keep referring to a game 7. Why take the chance?
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There are a few reasons:

1. Starting Clemens does not guarantee a win.

2. Clemens would be pitching on three days rest. Pitchers pitching on three days rest are three times more likely to lose than win.

3. If the Astros would lose this game with Clemens starting, they would have have to start Roy Oswalt in Game 7 on three days rest and we all know that he was very shaky his last time out. The bullpen actually saved the Astros in Game 4 after Oswalt gave up 5 runs, 8 hits and 4 BB in six innings. I would not want to have Oswalt out there on three days rest considering that.

4. Even if the Astros would lose Game 6 with Clemens and win Game 7 with Oswalt, the Astros would have to start the World Series off with these young guys pitching and you really don't want that to happen. I would prefer having one of my top pitchers ready for Game 1.

5. If the Astros are able to win this game tonight, you will have a fresh Roger Clemens and a fresh Roy Oswalt for Games 1 and 2 of the World Series. It also means if the World Series would go 7 games, you would have each one of them for a second time. Roger Clemens vs. the Yankees in Game 1? That would be a helluva matchup.

With that being said, wouldn't it have been nice if the Astros had Andy Pettite and Wade Miller healthy?
 
Fiyah said:
If you use Clemons in game 6 and lose then you have to use Oswalt on 3 days rest for game 7. Now you would not have either one of those pitchers to start in the World Series until game 3 and 4 and then you would have to depend on Backe & Munro for games 1,2 and possibly 5 & 6 when you could have set your rotation up starting with your 2 aces.
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You make some excellent points about setting up the rotation for the world series. I guess my focus is on GETTING THERE 1st. Like you said, pitching Rocket doesn't guarantee us a win. We'll you got to apply that mentality to playing for a game 7 as well. Chances are 3 times more likely (just my opinion) to lose with Munro on the mound as apposed to pitching Clemens on 3 days rest. I recognize the point about him being 42, but he was 42 when he pitched game 4 against the Braves and did well and I just have to go with my gut and my heart when I'm trying to get to a world series.

Left turn here though.

I made this thread sound like I was purely focused on the decision to start Munro but it's more than that on Garner with me. Fiyah touched on it already. I just don't like the way he handles his pitching staff. Backe got the early hook in St. Louis and he brought in Qualls (BIG MISTAKE). Clemons got the early hook in game 4 against the Braves. He brought in Lidge to try and hold on and had him throwing all breaking balls for dam* near 3 innings and we got beat. He didn't bring in Lidge (Miceli I think) that last game in St. Louis when they beat us in the late innings. (LaRusa brought in his closer)

I'm just totally baffled as to how Garner is handling his staff. It seems he has the quick hook on his starters and continually and willingly exposes his weak bull pen. WHY DAM* IT !!!!!!!!!
 
GramFan said:
With that being said, wouldn't it have been nice if the Astros had Andy Pettite and Wade Miller healthy?
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You can say that again. We'd be getting fitted for rings already.
 
Harville stops the bleeding with a 96 mph fast ball.

GARNER LIFTS HIM AND REPLACES HIM WITH QUALLS IN THE 4TH ! :scared:


Dam* it Garner WHY !!!!!!!! We closed the gap to 4-3 !!!!!
 
He made the mistake of bringing in Miceli in the 12th and what did it get him....

Another home run ball over the fence for the lost.

Game 7 tomorrow......Roger "the Rocket" Clemons will be on the mound to send the Astros to the World Series.

The bullpen stepped up in this game with the exception of the last pitcher.
 
This is just what I feared though man. The bull pen stepped-up but.........

What if we had thrown the rocket and he gave us at least 5 or 6. Even if he matched Munro's 4 runs, if he could have strung them out over 5 or 6 instead of 2 1/3, then we don't have to get so deep into the bullpen. We get 2 strong from Harville and 2 more from Lidge then we bring in Oswalt to finish them off for a couple. NOW WE PROBABLY DON'T EVEN HAVE LIDGE AVAILABLE FOR TONIGHT !!!. Save Roger but throw Lidge 3 innings because you now realize you needed to win it in 6 while you had the chance. :look:

I know it's easy to be a post game manager but I saw this problem coming when Garner announced that Munro would get the start. The Yankees are sick this morning for not closing it out while they had the chance, let's just hope we don't feel the same way tonight.

My heart and my mind still say Roger will beat them tonight.
 



DonTiger said:
This is just what I feared though man. The bull pen stepped-up but.........

What if we had thrown the rocket and he gave us at least 5 or 6. Even if he matched Munro's 4 runs, if he could have strung them out over 5 or 6 instead of 2 1/3, then we don't have to get so deep into the bullpen. We get 2 strong from Harville and 2 more from Lidge then we bring in Oswalt to finish them off for a couple. NOW WE PROBABLY DON'T EVEN HAVE LIDGE AVAILABLE FOR TONIGHT !!!. Save Roger but throw Lidge 3 innings because you now realize you needed to win it in 6 while you had the chance. :look:


My heart and my mind still say Roger will beat them tonight.
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Using your scenerio you would have rather used Roger with the same 4 run result instead of Lidge for 3 innings. I'm sorry i would not have wanted to do that because you just shorten your use of everyone else for game 7 and if possible game 1&2 of the world series. Although everyone is av available to pitch tonight if pressed to win, the decision to use Munro instead of Clemons was still the one to do. Why go into game 7 with no one rested to pitch instead of what they did do. Knowing that Suppan has not beaten the Astros all year when Clemons pitched is another thing to take into account. He pitched game 3 and didn't make it out of the 4th inning. So the odds are in the Astros favor, just hope the bats wake up early and often and put this game away quick.

ST. LOUIS (AP) -- Jeff Suppan led the St. Louis Cardinals with 16 wins this season. Take away his matchups against Roger Clemens and he might've had a few more.

Suppan opposed Clemens three times during the regular season and lost each outing to Houston. They met again in Game 3 of the NL championship series and the Astros took that one, too.

So who does Suppan face in Game 7 Thursday night? Yep, Clemens.
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Hey I've Been a fan since the glory days of JR Richards!

Phil made the right moves no matter how the series ends today. We have our best horse on the mound tonight! What more can we ask??? Game 7

I like the stros' odds :ebrow:
 
Fiyah said:
Using your scenerio you would have rather used Roger with the same 4 run result instead of Lidge for 3 innings. I'm sorry i would not have wanted to do that because you just shorten your use of everyone else for game 7 and if possible game 1&2 of the world series. Although everyone is av available to pitch tonight if pressed to win, the decision to use Munro instead of Clemons was still the one to do. Why go into game 7 with no one rested to pitch instead of what they did do. Knowing that Suppan has not beaten the Astros all year when Clemons pitched is another thing to take into account. He pitched game 3 and didn't make it out of the 4th inning. So the odds are in the Astros favor, just hope the bats wake up early and often and put this game away quick.
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Using my scenerio we would've won game 6 and we'd be talking about Boston right now !!!!!!

You talk like Clemens is going to be availble sooner since he started later :spin: Clemens aint gone be available for the start of the world series regardless. Lidge won't be available for GAME 7 tonight so we probably gone have to use Oswalt making his availability for the start of the world series questionable too. I think your logic was to save as many of your big guns for game 7 and I keep screaming at the top of my lungs WHY GO TO A GAME 7. Garner played for a game 7 in their ball park instead of going for it all in game 6 and letting Game 7 worry about itself if it would've even been necessary. Why am I the only one that's not content with basically conseeding game 6 and forcing your own back to the wall.
 
DonTiger said:
This is just what I feared though man. The bull pen stepped-up but.........

What if we had thrown the rocket and he gave us at least 5 or 6. Even if he matched Munro's 4 runs, if he could have strung them out over 5 or 6 instead of 2 1/3, then we don't have to get so deep into the bullpen. We get 2 strong from Harville and 2 more from Lidge then we bring in Oswalt to finish them off for a couple.
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DonTiger said:
Using my scenerio we would've won game 6 and we'd be talking about Boston right now !!!!!!
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How would they have won if Roger (using your scenerio above) would have given up the same amount of runs as Munro. The game would have still been tied at 4-4 and you've used all your horses for this game.

Whats left for game 7? Hmmmmm.... Munro :lmao:
 
DonTiger said:
Why am I the only one that's not content with basically conseeding game 6 and forcing your own back to the wall.
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Don, how did you come up with the idea that Game 6 was conceded. The Astros had just as much a chance in winning that game as the Cardinals did. Remember, it was 4-4 in the 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th innings. One more run in the 9th (which they had a chance to score with runners on 2nd and 3rd; Berkman struck out) or a run in the 10th or 11th and we'd be calling Garner a genius.

Now to try and answer your question, I'm thinking the reason you're the only one that's not content with what has happened is because you have yet to truly consider how the cards are stacked against any pitcher, let alone a 42 yr. old one, when they are asked to pitch on three games rest. I may have posted this before but a pitcher starting on three games rest is three times as likely to lose as they are to win.
 
Fiyah said:
How would they have won if Roger (using your scenerio above) would have given up the same amount of runs as Munro. The game would have still been tied at 4-4 and you've used all your horses for this game.

Whats left for game 7? Hmmmmm.... Munro :lmao:
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Oswalt or Lidge in there in the 12th instead of Miceli because Roger would have ate up more innings on the front end. We hold them down and score before they do.

Again, are you saying it's better to hold back on game 6 so you can try harder when willingly facing elimination in game 7.

I say win it now while you have the chance and not facing elimination rather than give the home team life. and putting one of your own feet in the grave.
 
GramFan said:
Don, how did you come up with the idea that Game 6 was conceded. The Astros had just as much a chance in winning that game as the Cardinals did. Remember, it was 4-4 in the 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th innings. One more run in the 9th (which they had a chance to score with runners on 2nd and 3rd; Berkman struck out) or a run in the 10th or 11th and we'd be calling Garner a genius.

Now to try and answer your question, I'm thinking the reason you're the only one that's not content with what has happened is because you have yet to truly consider how the cards are stacked against any pitcher, let alone a 42 yr. old one, when they are asked to pitch on three games rest. I may have posted this before but a pitcher starting on three games rest is three times as likely to lose as they are to win.
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What's the reasoning for pitching Munro instead of Clemens yesterday? Obviously because you'd rather have the Rocket on a full 4 days rest for a game 7 right !!! We'll if that's not conceeding a loss in game 6 so you can be strong in game 7 then I need to delete this whole thread. Dude, by saying that it's better to have Clemens in game 7 rested you are ultimately saying that it's not that huge to lose game 6. Am I the only poster here that knew Munro would get knoced out early? I DON'T WANT TO GO INTO SAINT LOUIS WITH 1 FOOT IN THE GRAVE. If we pitch him in game 6 and lose, then we still have game 7 with no second guesses as to if we did all we could to avoid it. Like you said, he's 42, 24 hours later doesn't make him 24. And for the record, Clemens on 3 days rest has already proven to be WAY more effective than that sorry as* Munro on full rest in these very playoffs. So again, why conceede game 6.

Dam* it, if we'd had Miller or Pettite we'd be drinking champagne right now instead of debating this whole pitching situation :bawling:
 
DonTiger said:
What's the reasoning for pitching Munro instead of Clemens yesterday? Obviously because you'd rather have the Rocket on a full 4 days rest for a game 7 right !!! We'll if that's not conceeding a loss in game 6 so you can be strong in game 7 then I need to delete this whole thread.
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Don delete the thread, bruh.
 
GramFan said:
Don delete the thread, bruh.
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O.K. Fan,

I got a question for you on this. If last night was game 7, would Munro or the Rocket been starting? HMMMMMMM.

So since it wasn't game 7, AND GARNER FELT LIKE HE DIDN'T ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO WIN THE GAME as if it was a game 7............

I'll change my terminology, conceede the loss outright, maybe not that blatent. BUT HAVE IN THE BACK OF HIS MIND, WE CAN LOSE GAME 6 AS LONG AS WE'RE STRONG IN GAME 7...... Definatley.

I just happen to strongly disagree with that philosophy.
 
DonTiger said:
O.K. Fan,

I got a question for you on this. If last night was game 7, would Munro or the Rocket been starting? HMMMMMMM.

So since it wasn't game 7, AND GARNER FELT LIKE HE DIDN'T ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO WIN THE GAME as if it was a game 7............

I'll change my terminology, conceede the loss outright, maybe not that blatent. BUT HAVE IN THE BACK OF HIS MIND, WE CAN LOSE GAME 6 AS LONG AS WE'RE STRONG IN GAME 7...... Definatley.

I just happen to strongly disagree with that philosophy.
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Don, no doubt, Roger Clemens would have started Game 7 if it had been played last night.

And I agree with you. Garner, like those of us who think he made the right decision not to start Clemens, knew that he DIDN'T HAVE TO WIN GAME 6 so he gave Munro the start, gave the ace of his pitching staff a chance to be fully rested in case there was a Game 7 and at the same time hoped to win Game 6, which they definitely had a chance to do. You may call it conceding. I don't.
 
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