Have Your Church Become a Spiritual "Night Club"


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Dr H..

Dr H..

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Has the worship service at your particular church become a ?pseudo spiritual night club? What has happen to the holiness of the black church?

- Jokes are being told from the pull pit

- Preachers [married] flirting and dating sisters in the church

- Preachers [married and single] are getting sisters in the church pregnant

- Secular music is being subsituted for the Songs of Zion

- Women dresses are so short you can see the print of their private parts and outline of their panty hose

- Parents are allowing their young boys to "sag"

- Is there a need for a "rock band" during worship service?

- When will we start going to Worship Service and not to Church? And there is a difference.

- Whe are "we" going to start worshipping God and not the building or the preacher?


I have visited and preached at a number of churches and the more I visit or preach, the more I am convinced that God is not pleased with the spiritual condition of the ?church?. I mean some preachers have allowed the worship service to resemble BET Comic View.

There are a few churches here that will dismiss or shorten worship service, so their members can see the Titans play.

God Forbid

There was a time that men were leaders in the church, now that responsibility is being fulfilled by women. There are just as many women ?preachers? as there are men, WHY? I am surprised at the number of Baptist Churches that are allowing women to preach. Is it because that there are more women in Church than men and the ?preacher? does not want to make the good sistas upset, thus with holding their contributions? Vocational Bible School has become free ?baby sitting? for a week or two for some parents. Individuals feel that they can follow ?televangelist? and be saved ? ?Just put you hand on the TV or Radio? and you can be saved.
 
I have a lot to say on this one...but I need my scriptures first.

To answer in short, NO, my church is not a spiritual night club.
 



Dr H.. said:
I am surprised at the number of Baptist Churches that are allowing women to preach.
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Do you have a problem w/allowing women to preach? Things have changed. I don't know why. I remember(in the 70's & 80's) when there were about 7 men (pastors & deacons)in the entire church & 300+ women.
 
Dr H.. said:
Has the worship service at your particular church become a ?pseudo spiritual night club? What has happen to the holiness of the black church?

- Jokes are being told from the pull pit

- Preachers [married] flirting and dating sisters in the church

- Preachers [married and single] are getting sisters in the church pregnant

- Secular music is being subsituted for the Songs of Zion

- Women dresses are so short you can see the print of their private parts and outline of their panty hose

- Parents are allowing their young boys to "sag"

- Is there a need for a "rock band" during worship service?

- When will we start going to Worship Service and not to Church? And there is a difference.

- Whe are "we" going to start worshipping God and not the building or the preacher?


I have visited and preached at a number of churches and the more I visit or preach, the more I am convinced that God is not pleased with the spiritual condition of the ?church?. I mean some preachers have allowed the worship service to resemble BET Comic View.

There are a few churches here that will dismiss or shorten worship service, so their members can see the Titans play.

God Forbid

There was a time that men were leaders in the church, now that responsibility is being fulfilled by women. There are just as many women ?preachers? as there are men, WHY? I am surprised at the number of Baptist Churches that are allowing women to preach. Is it because that there are more women in Church than men and the ?preacher? does not want to make the good sistas upset, thus with holding their contributions? Vocational Bible School has become free ?baby sitting? for a week or two for some parents. Individuals feel that they can follow ?televangelist? and be saved ? ?Just put you hand on the TV or Radio? and you can be saved.
Click to expand...

Interesting observations, Dr. H. I have noticed too that alot of secular music is starting to creep into the safe haven for Praise Worshippers.
 
As for the "Band" in the church...

Psalm 150
1 Praise the LORD . [1]

Praise God in his sanctuary;
praise him in his mighty heavens.
2 Praise him for his acts of power;
praise him for his surpassing greatness.
3<b> Praise him with the sounding of the trumpet,
praise him with the harp and lyre,
4 praise him with tambourine and dancing,
praise him with the strings and flute,
5 praise him with the clash of cymbals,
praise him with resounding cymbals. </b>

6 Let everything that has breath praise the LORD .

Praise the LORD .


I don't know if you have ever heard the instruments above, but these are not quiet instruments. It could be perceived as a band... My church has one and I LOVE IT! Our band plays hymnals as well as more modern GOSPEL (and perceived secular) music in our church. As long as the song is uplifting Jesus or teaching us about JESUS, it is played in our church. Oh, I could write a book on this but I won't. Let me find more scriptures for some of the other things you said.




I am glad you brought this up. IT WILL MAKE FOR INTERESTING DISCUSSIONS!
 
Do I have a problem with women preaching? YES

Things may have changed but the qualifications "God's word" has not, regardless of what "Mankind" says.

I was raised in a Old Fashon "Hell Fire and Brimstone" Preachig MB Church. Women was not allowed to preach in the Baptist Church.


Qualifications of Bishops [Preachers] & Deacons

1 Timothy 3

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Note: I have not found where God outlines the qualifications for a woman to become a Bishop [Preacher], Elder or Deacon.

Some folks beleive that because you husband is a Preacher, Elder or Deacon, that automatically place his wife in a similar position. That is not so and it can not be proven by God's word.
 
<font color=blue>As for women teaching/preaching in the church, my father (an old-time baptist preacher) feels women should not be the sheppard of the flock...

The churches I know that prohibit women from speaking or force women to stand to the side if they even so much as read a scripture are all dying churches. They are small in number and the number keeps dwindling.

Forgive me, I am looking for a scripture...There is nothing wrong with women teaching/preaching.


Genesis

26 Then God said, "Let <b>us make man</b> in our image, in our likeness, and let <b>them</b> rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
<b>male and female he created them.</b>

28 God blessed <b>them and said to them,</b> "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.


Read these scriptures...find them in your own Bible. You also need to look up the origin of the words and the context in which they were used in that day. Consider this. I highlighted the words I want you to remember. God created THEM. He told THEM to "be fruitful and increase in number...Rule over the fish of the sea..etc." He was not talking to just a man (gender-wise). He was speaking to man (mankind) that he had created. Also, you have to understand that when he created man/mankind: He created both....one was called in greek form isha/aisha. One meant male and one meant female. Forgive my spelling of the greek words, but I am going off memory, but at the time I was given this lesson, I had been shown in text and biblical dictionaries and greek translations...of the "human" that GOD created. If this was not so, then why did God say he was speaking to THEM and why does the scripture say "male and female" he created them. I am saying all this to say that dominion of the earth was not given to only man mankind but to female mankind as well. What does that have to do with a woman being a preacher. It means that God can speak to her just as he spoke to man...and I find over time that churches that give women and men authority to teach and preacher usually grow and teach more people than those that do not. At least, this has been MY experience.

Please respond. Thanks for bringing up the topic.</font>
 
Dr H.. said:
Has the worship service at your particular church become a ?pseudo spiritual night club? What has happen to the holiness of the black church?

- Jokes are being told from the pull pit

- Preachers [married] flirting and dating sisters in the church

- Preachers [married and single] are getting sisters in the church pregnant

- Secular music is being subsituted for the Songs of Zion

- Women dresses are so short you can see the print of their private parts and outline of their panty hose

- Parents are allowing their young boys to "sag"

- Is there a need for a "rock band" during worship service?

- When will we start going to Worship Service and not to Church? And there is a difference.

- Whe are "we" going to start worshipping God and not the building or the preacher?


I have visited and preached at a number of churches and the more I visit or preach, the more I am convinced that God is not pleased with the spiritual condition of the ?church?. I mean some preachers have allowed the worship service to resemble BET Comic View.

There are a few churches here that will dismiss or shorten worship service, so their members can see the Titans play.

God Forbid

There was a time that men were leaders in the church, now that responsibility is being fulfilled by women. There are just as many women ?preachers? as there are men, WHY? I am surprised at the number of Baptist Churches that are allowing women to preach. Is it because that there are more women in Church than men and the ?preacher? does not want to make the good sistas upset, thus with holding their contributions? Vocational Bible School has become free ?baby sitting? for a week or two for some parents. Individuals feel that they can follow ?televangelist? and be saved ? ?Just put you hand on the TV or Radio? and you can be saved.
Click to expand...

Is this in reference to Bishop Walker who services are televised on "The Word Chanell" on digital cable? Isn't he located in Nashville?l
 
Dr H.. said:
Do I have a problem with women preaching? YES

Things may have changed but the qualifications "God's word" has not, regardless of what "Mankind" says.

I was raised in a Old Fashon "Hell Fire and Brimstone" Preachig MB Church. Women was not allowed to preach in the Baptist Church.


Qualifications of Bishops [Preachers] & Deacons

1 Timothy 3

This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Note: I have not found where God outlines the qualifications for a woman to become a Bishop [Preacher], Elder or Deacon.

Some folks beleive that because you husband is a Preacher, Elder or Deacon, that automatically place his wife in a similar position. That is not so and it can not be proven by God's word.
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Co-Sign Dr.H.

But you know people dont see this anymore. They are quick to hide behind the term "God is doing a new thing." But first to sing "He's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." or "He is ever lasting." or "God never changes."

What!!!?????

This thread is about to change direction. Grab your seat and your Bible.
 
Dr. H

I truly hope the things you listed are exaggerations and aren't happening at many churches. If not, this is more than sad. Fortunately none of this goes on at my church. A few (like two) of our teen boys do wear the throwback jerseys and baggy jeans sometimes but not to the point of underwear being exposed. It's rare if a woman wears something inappropriate, i've never seen one wear a dress that was too short/tight or low cut. Now, most sisters (the fit ones) are shapely and they'll be noticeable regardless even though they're dressed appropriately. Not that i'm looking. :lol: To bottom line it: The pastor has a responsiblity to keep order and deliver the word, the congregation has the reponsibilty to come in focused, ready to worship and receive the word.
 
docmump said:
Co-Sign Dr.H.

But you know people dont see this anymore. They are quick to hide behind the term "God is doing a new thing." But first to sing "He's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." or "He is ever lasting." or "God never changes."

What!!!?????

This thread is about to change direction. Grab your seat and your Bible.
Click to expand...
This is getting very interesting and very good. :)
 
What's wrong with a joke if it is used in context with teaching a scripture or something? Are jokes prohibited in the Bible? If so, show me where. I do not mean magic/witches/and hocus-pocus stuff... I am talking about a good "gospel" joke.
 
Also, as for people coming in to worship...vs... going to church is just a play on words. However, I get the underlying meaning that you give.

You have to realize that everyone you see in church is there for different reasons. Realize that not everyone is a seasoned/holyghost filled/revival going/fire and brimstone walking Christian. They are in THEIR OWN WALKS with GOD...not yours nor mine. There are Babes in Christ and their are the seasoned worshippers. Thru time, those that don't know will learn. It is not for us to judge when that will be...but we can gently help them along.

Why not now? BECAUSE GOD's word says..."FOR EVERYTHING, there is a time and a season..." Let me find the scripture so you can know it came from the bible...and not me...

Ecclesiastes 3


A Time for Everything

1<b>
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under heaven:

2 a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3 a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
4 a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5 a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6 a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7 a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8 a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace. </b>

9 What does the worker gain from his toil? 10 I have seen the burden God has laid on men. 11 He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. 12 I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live. 13 That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil-this is the gift of God. 14 I know that everything God does will endure forever; nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it. God does it so that men will revere him.

15 Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account. [1]

16 And I saw something else under the sun:

In the place of judgment-wickedness was there,
in the place of justice-wickedness was there.

17 I thought in my heart,

"God will bring to judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time for every deed."

18 I also thought, "As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [2] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return. 21 Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal [3] goes down into the earth?"
22 So I saw that there is nothing better for a man than to enjoy his work, because that is his lot. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?



Footnotes


3:15 Or God calls back the past
3:19 Or spirit
3:21 Or Who knows the spirit of man, which rises upward, or the spirit of the animal, which


With all that being said, I submit to you to the following:
1. Aint nothing new under the sun
2. We are in different phases of our walk with God; Who is to say when my phase 2 should end or begin, but God?
3. God can give discernment and understanding to those who diligently seek him
4. God is not limited to what is written the book we all read called the Bible.
5. God can do/change anything he wants to at any time.
......
 
J4J said:
What's wrong with a joke if it is used in context with teaching a scripture or something? Are jokes prohibited in the Bible? If so, show me where. I do not mean magic/witches/and hocus-pocus stuff... I am talking about a good "gospel" joke.
Click to expand...
I believe you can have fun at church. Not too many jokes but you should at least have fun.
 



NT

Walker is located here in Nashville.

Mt. Zion use to be a Baptist Church - Now it is "Full Gospel" when he came in and changed the name a lot of the older generation left. A majority of the congregation consist of college students and "women"


docmump

God said stir them up..

Some folks use the OT to justify their actions [we know it was just a school master]. Yes it is inspired and true; but it [OT] is not our law or the standards for Christians. The fact is no one can live by both [OT & NT]. The OT is either binding or it is not, if it is those who teach that it is not are wrong. If it is not binding those that teach it is, is wrong. Both cannot be right. No one can follow Moses and Jesus you have to choose one or the other - cannot worship two masters.

God is doing new things [Yea right] that is an argument for those that does not want to obey.

God's plan for salvation / redemption has never changed and it can be seen from Genesis to Revelation.

"God is the same today, tomorrow and forever" That is true, but the writer is talking about the divinity and soverenty of God.

Some say "In my opinion" but the reality is "What is God's Opinion" "In my opinion" everyone is saved and is going to heaven. However, "In God's Opinion" everyone is not saved and the are some folks going to hell. The question is who's opinion has the authority, mine or Gods?
 
Dr. H & Docmump,

Are ya'll saying a Deacon has to be married? Apparently, my pastor, elders and the other deacons think not. There's two of us patiently waiting on our board. Reveal her soon Lord! :D


As for the musicians/choir....I totally agree w/J4J. You may hear some secular riffs in some of the upbeat songs but it only adds to the worship and praise experience for me. They never cross the line, there's a very nice mix of the traditional and contemporary. :nod:
 
Dr H.. said:
NT



God is doing new things [Yea right] that is an argument for those that does not want to obey.
Click to expand...

YES, God is doing new things. There is a scripture that speaks to that. It is in Isaiah...as soon as I find it, I will post it for you.

Now, overall the things that God does may not be new...but it may be new to SOMEBODY.
 
As for the young boys....

Train up a child in the way it should go, that when he grows old, he will not depart from it.
 
J4J said:
YES, God is doing new things. There is a scripture that speaks to that. It is in Isaiah...as soon as I find it, I will post it for you.
Click to expand...


Is it Isaiah 43:19?
"Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert."
 
CriTAUcal said:
Is it Isaiah 43:19?
"Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert."
Click to expand...


THAT IS IT! THANK YOU!


:tup:
 
Dr H.. said:
I was raised in a Old Fashon "Hell Fire and Brimstone" Preachig MB Church. Women was not allowed to preach in the Baptist Church.
Click to expand...
Now, I understand.

Dr H.. said:
Note: I have not found where God outlines the qualifications for a woman to become a Bishop [Preacher], Elder or Deacon.
Click to expand...
So when the great commission was given...it was only for men? Women shouldn't/can't "go ye forth into all nations & spread the gospel...?" I ask because women share/testify/teach the word all the time. They may not do it from a pulpit in a church but, the MAY do it via email, in the grocery store, or at the bank. Do you have a problem w/them presiding over a congregation? Being in the pulpit period? Should their role be limited to "student?"
 
docmump said:
Co-Sign Dr.H.

But you know people dont see this anymore. They are quick to hide behind the term "God is doing a new thing." But first to sing "He's the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." or "He is ever lasting." or "God never changes."

What!!!?????

This thread is about to change direction. Grab your seat and your Bible.
Click to expand...


So true! God does not change, and He is the same God yesterday as He is Today!
HOWEVVVVVVVVVer, we DO change!
God can use whomever He wishes! And if man can or doesn't step up to the plate, God can use those who are willing! UNLIKE us, He doesn't have a respect a person.
Truth is... we should all be ministers/preachers, because all a minister is... is a Servant!
It's "Us" who turns everything into "religion" and gives the "preacher's licenses."
There is work for EVERYBODY--- behind the pulpit and out in the world.
What we all need to be concerned with is that "are we doing what God has called us to do?"
Man, I'm glad God is not like man... He's able to look beyond color and gender.
No wonder in the latter parts of the Bible, the book addresses THE CHURCH! We too need to get it together.
 
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