GSU losses - do they count????





The games listed below have been designated by the Conference office as games that will count towards this year?s Conference standings.

Western Division


<TABLE width=488><TBODY><TR class=skedtext><TH>Southern</TH><TH>Grambling State</TH><TH>Texas Southern</TH><TH>Ark.-Pine Bluff</TH><TH>Prairie View A&M</TH></TR><TR class=skedtext><TD>
Grambling State​



</TD><TD>
Southern​



</TD><TD>
Southern​



</TD><TD>
Jackson State​



</TD><TD>
Southern​



</TD></TR><TR class=skedtext><TD>
Texas Southern​



</TD><TD>
Texas Southern​



</TD><TD>
Grambling State​



</TD><TD>
Grambling State​



</TD><TD>
Grambling State​



</TD></TR><TR class=skedtext><TD>
Jackson State​



</TD><TD>
Ark.-Pine Bluff​



</TD><TD>
Ark.-Pine Bluff​



</TD><TD>
Texas Southern​



</TD><TD>
Texas Southern​



</TD></TR><TR class=skedtext><TD>
Prairie View A&M​



</TD><TD>
Prairie View A&M​



</TD><TD>
Prairie View A&M​



</TD><TD>
Prairie View A&M​



</TD><TD>
Ark.-Pine Bluff​



</TD></TR><TR class=skedtext><TD>
Alabama State​



</TD><TD>
Alabama State​



</TD><TD>
Alabama State​



</TD><TD>
Alabama State​



</TD><TD>
Alabama State​



</TD></TR><TR class=skedtext><TD>
Alcorn State​



</TD><TD>
Alcorn State​



</TD><TD>
Alcorn State​



</TD><TD>
Miss. Valley State​



</TD><TD>
Alcorn State​



</TD></TR><TR class=skedtext><TD>
Alabama A&M​



</TD><TD>
Alabama A&M​



</TD><TD>
Alabama A&M​



</TD><TD>
Alabama A&M​



</TD><TD>
Alabama A&M​



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
 
Yes they do count - the designated conference games (games that dont count in the standings) for each school are as follows:

AAMU - UAPB, PVU
ALAST - UAPB, PVU
ALCST - PVU
UAPB - ALL GAMES COUNT - YOU ONLY HAVE 7 CONF. GAMES
GRAM - MVSU, JSU
JSU - PVU - ONLY ONE DESIGNATED GAME - YOU HAVE 8 CONF GAMES
MVSU - UAPB, PVU
PVU - MVSU, JSU
SU - MVSU (SEE JSU)
TXSU - AAMU (SEE JSU)

My suggestion to the Council of Presidents would be - until the conference expands to 12 teams that is - to have on 7 conference games since thats all that is gonna count in the standings. 4 from your division, each school designates 1 team from the opposite division as a permanent "rival" for lack of a better term, and each school rotates the other 4 teams on 2 year contracts - home and home.

An example - Alabama St
AAMU
ALCST
JST
MVSU
TXSU - PERMANENT RIVAL FROM OPPOSITE DIVISION
SU & UAPB FOR 2 YEARS (HOME AND HOME) - THEY ROTATE OFF AFTER THE SECOND YEAR AND GRAM & PV ROTATES ON FOR 2 YEARS.

That gives you seven games, allows you to schedule 4 out of conference games and ease the confusion on what games count and what games dont count. I would also prevent schools from scheduling other conference teams when it is not their year to play.

The problem with doing that comes from - and this is not meant as smack at all - JSU, SU, & Gram. Which of the west schools gets to have JSU as a 'permanant' rival and which school is willing to play every 2 years? And I ask that from a TRADITION standpoint only - the tradition and history of the conference will make it hard on one of these schools playing only every 2 years....But Auburn and Tennessee did it when the SEC divided into divisions.

Just my take - and I know this is a subject that has been beat to death.
 
majiksity said:
The problem with doing that comes from - and this is not meant as smack at all - JSU, SU, & Gram. Which of the west schools gets to have JSU as a 'permanant' rival and which school is willing to play every 2 years? And I ask that from a TRADITION standpoint only - the tradition and history of the conference will make it hard on one of these schools playing only every 2 years....But Auburn and Tennessee did it when the SEC divided into divisions.

Just my take - and I know this is a subject that has been beat to death.
Click to expand...
When we had a 7 game conference schedule, the solution to this problem was real simple. The schools that wanted to play each other just scheduled the game anyway and the game did not count in the standings. Real simple but some folks could not understand that. I don't see SU and JSU not playing each other anytime in the near future.
 
...and Lewis, that is why the mandate is going to be hard to get rid of. I think that JSU and SU can stand not to play each other....if we are that good, let's meet in Bham for it all. I believe that JSU and SU are attractive enough opponents to find a quality non-conference game if we had to. I am for the 7 game format where teams are not allowed to play each other if they are not on rotation.

Majicksity,

Having a permanent rival game is not fair to the AL and TX schools becasue they are not rivals. The rival clause will only benefit JSU-SU-Alcorn-Grambling whereas the BAMAs and TEXANs would be forced to make long trips for nothing EVERY year.
 
Lewis, you proved my point

TP, that was just one example but as it stands now we have to travel to TX - and vice versa - anyway and I think to be bale to play teams other than conference opponents its a small sacrifice to be made. And if the conference ever expands, this kind of format is whats going to happen.
 
majiksity said:
Yes they do count - the designated conference games (games that dont count in the standings) for each school are as follows:

AAMU - UAPB, PVU
ALAST - UAPB, PVU
ALCST - PVU
UAPB - ALL GAMES COUNT - YOU ONLY HAVE 7 CONF. GAMES
GRAM - MVSU, JSU
JSU - PVU - ONLY ONE DESIGNATED GAME - YOU HAVE 8 CONF GAMES
MVSU - UAPB, PVU
PVU - MVSU, JSU
SU - MVSU (SEE JSU)
TXSU - AAMU (SEE JSU)

My suggestion to the Council of Presidents would be - until the conference expands to 12 teams that is - to have on 7 conference games since thats all that is gonna count in the standings. 4 from your division, each school designates 1 team from the opposite division as a permanent "rival" for lack of a better term, and each school rotates the other 4 teams on 2 year contracts - home and home.

An example - Alabama St
AAMU
ALCST
JST
MVSU
TXSU - PERMANENT RIVAL FROM OPPOSITE DIVISION
SU & UAPB FOR 2 YEARS (HOME AND HOME) - THEY ROTATE OFF AFTER THE SECOND YEAR AND GRAM & PV ROTATES ON FOR 2 YEARS.

That gives you seven games, allows you to schedule 4 out of conference games and ease the confusion on what games count and what games dont count. I would also prevent schools from scheduling other conference teams when it is not their year to play.

The problem with doing that comes from - and this is not meant as smack at all - JSU, SU, & Gram. Which of the west schools gets to have JSU as a 'permanant' rival and which school is willing to play every 2 years? And I ask that from a TRADITION standpoint only - the tradition and history of the conference will make it hard on one of these schools playing only every 2 years....But Auburn and Tennessee did it when the SEC divided into divisions.

Just my take - and I know this is a subject that has been beat to death.
Click to expand...


Ok this post may take several post to complete but I think I might have a solution if the conference stays at 10 and does not expand.

I like everything you said but I would change the formula a little.
I would mandate 7 conference games, the 9 mandate is dumb , it benefits no one. I think we should play 4 division opponents, 2 PERMENANT teams from opposite division, and a widlcard (EXplanation - the three conference teams that you are not locked into playing would be on a wildcard rotation. Say one year AAMu plays Locked -alst, alcn, mvsu, jsu, su, txsu. They would have gram,pvamu, and uapb non conference wise to juggle. The wildcard element comes in when schedules are made out each year this slot will be reserved and a wildcard draft will be held. Their would be a draft order based on who finished highest in the standings the previous year.All teams would have a bucket with the 3 teams they are not playing in it , which one they choose out of the hat is who they would play. The team that is selected is then removed fhe draft and the teams reseeded. This is complicated and far to complex for our lazy swac office. I wish they would hire me as Commisioner of football operations for the conference, I would make this crap work. :angry:
 
Ok now here goes the solution. ( simulation of last year and what current schedule would look like.
Draft order - SU , alst, gram, alcr, aamu, txsu, uapb, jsu, mvsu, pvam
By the way the team with the better record would host the wildcard matchup.

SU schedule locked - gram, uapb, txsu, pvamu, jsu, aamu
SU wildcard opp - alcorn

Bama St locked - aamu, alcn, jsu, mvsu, gram, txsu
Bama St. wilccard opp - uapb

Gram schedule locked - su, txsu, pvamu, uapb, aamu, bama st.
gram wildcard opp - mvsu

Alcorn schedule locked - aamu, alst, mvsu, jsu, txsu, uapb
Alcorn wildcard - SU

AAMU schedule locked - alst, jsu,mvsu, alcn, gram, su
AAMU wildcard - PVAMU

and so on, do u get the picture
 
bighusky00 said:
Ok this post may take several post to complete but I think I might have a solution if the conference stays at 10 and does not expand.

I like everything you said but I would change the formula a little.
I would mandate 7 conference games, the 9 mandate is dumb , it benefits no one. I think we should play 4 division opponents, 2 PERMENANT teams from opposite division, and a widlcard (EXplanation - the three conference teams that you are not locked into playing would be on a wildcard rotation. Say one year AAMu plays Locked -alst, alcn, mvsu, jsu, su, txsu. They would have gram,pvamu, and uapb non conference wise to juggle. The wildcard element comes in when schedules are made out each year this slot will be reserved and a wildcard draft will be held. Their would be a draft order based on who finished highest in the standings the previous year.All teams would have a bucket with the 3 teams they are not playing in it , which one they choose out of the hat is who they would play. The team that is selected is then removed fhe draft and the teams reseeded. This is complicated and far to complex for our lazy swac office. I wish they would hire me as Commisioner of football operations for the conference, I would make this crap work. :angry:
Click to expand...

The original system that was in place was working fine. Each team played the other four teams in its division, then three teams from the opposite division. You end up with the same number of games counting towards the standings as you do now, and you don't have games that count for one team and not the other. That leaves four games to play anyone, so traditional rivals such as JSU-SU could play each other in years when they weren't scheduled for a conference game, if they so desired. You can rotate non-divisional games every couple years, and devise a system for tiebreakers. It was a simple system that worked fine, the conference would be wise to go back to it.
 
JaguarNation99,

The original system that was in place was working fine. Each team played the other four teams in its division, then three teams from the opposite division. You end up with the same number of games counting towards the standings as you do now, and you don't have games that count for one team and not the other. That leaves four games to play anyone, so traditional rivals such as JSU-SU could play each other in years when they weren't scheduled for a conference game, if they so desired. You can rotate non-divisional games every couple years, and devise a system for tiebreakers. It was a simple system that worked fine, the conference would be wise to go back to it.
Click to expand...

Tigerpride is correct. You can't have it both ways. As long as, Jackson State and Southern as well as Grambling State and Alcorn State coaches and administrators believe it is more important to play these games even when they are considered non-conference games as they roll off the schedule, then every other coach and administrator will not support a measure that would only benefit these four schools without their schools being able to share in the benefit, as well.

Again, as Tigerpride suggest you can not have you cake and it eat it too. You either are going to live with the 9 game mandate for every SWAC member or go with a 7 game mandate and live with they fact that their are some years where these rivalaries are not played. They SEC and Big XII Conference where able to live through it. Remember, this was not something that was suggested by the SWAC Office. This particular measure was supported and push through by mainly Southern, Grambling State, and Jackson State, while they other programs followed along by supporting the measure.
 



majiksity said:
Lewis, you proved my point

TP, that was just one example but as it stands now we have to travel to TX - and vice versa - anyway ...
Click to expand...

Yeah but you don't have to do it every year. If TxSo is your permanent and then PV rolls on, you will be going to Texas quite a bit. One advantage of having divisions is to cut down on travel. Your example would defeat the purpose.
 
We go to TX now every year - TSU came to us Sat - but on Oct 16 we go to PV - we go to TX every year now so - and one of them comes to us. As a matter of fact - TSU came to us - and AAMU goes to them, we go to PV - but PV goes to AAMU - so it offsets in that manner every year - so again we have to do TX every year as it stands now.

And remember what I originally posted was only for "example" purposes anyway and not to suggest that the TX and Bama schools become permanent - if that kind of scheduling were to happen the Bama and TX schools might not be "permanent" rivals - I was only pointing out how you could have one permanent team from the other division and rotate the other 4 schools every 2 years.
 
majiksity said:
We go to TX now every year - TSU came to us Sat - but on Oct 16 we go to PV - we go to TX every year now so - and one of them comes to us. As a matter of fact - TSU came to us - and AAMU goes to them, we go to PV - but PV goes to AAMU - so it offsets in that manner every year - so again we have to do TX every year as it stands now.

And remember what I originally posted was only for "example" purposes anyway and not to suggest that the TX and Bama schools become permanent - if that kind of scheduling were to happen the Bama and TX schools might not be "permanent" rivals - I was only pointing out how you could have one permanent team from the other division and rotate the other 4 schools every 2 years.
Click to expand...

But with the rotation, there would be years where you would not have to go to Tx. (when UAPB, SU, and Gram are your Western opponents)....Or you may end up with at least only having to go once every four years if you only have one Tx school on the rotation...this ain't that hard. :rolleyes:
 
...and again, it still makes NO sense to have PV as a permanent team for AAMU or AlaState. PV would do better financially playing Langston and AlaState would do better playing Miles, Samford or somebody. The only REAL problem with the 7-game format is the SU-Grambling-JSU-Alcorn games. None of the other interdivisional games don't really matter that much. One would not miss the other if they did not play. Do you know how many games JSU is having to turn down because of this stupid mandate. It would hurt us to lose the SU game but we take financial hits in other areas by having to play less attractive opponents. This is also a major case of the haves and have not....the big dog and the little mutts...but that is a totally different thread. I just hope that this 9-game mandate never comes into fruition.
 
TigerPride, majiksity,

First, it makes no sense for Southern and Jackson St. not to play. Irregardless of the records, that game will put 40,000+ in the stand. It is one of if not the biggest regular season "non classic" game in IAA. The fact is we cannont find anyone to replace that. Take this weekend, yall played Northerwestern, a highly ranked, and only drew 10,000. You can't name me 1 other 1AA school that is gonna draw every year like that.

Sometimes folks here need to stop comparing us to the SEC. The whole game is different in the SEC when it come to scheduling because of a few facts. First, MOST SEC SCHOOLS CAN EASILY SELL OUT THIER OWN STADUIM, wheras only 2 SWAC schools can come close, SU and JSU (we will call 30,000 at Jackson a "sellout" not because the staduim is full but that is more than any other confernce school, thier staduim is just so big). The 7 game thing worked for them because THEY REPLACED THE INTERDIVSION GAME WITH A HOME GAME EVERY YEAR. BECAUSE THEY WILL SELLOUT THIER STADUIM ANYWAY and make enough pay out a guareentee and still make a truckload of money. Take this week, LSU played Arkansas state. Game sold out. The 7 game thing allowed them to schedule 2 game they don't have make a return visit to. SO they can easily afford to not play TEN or South Carolina anymore. In the SWAC, that is not the case, for anyone competitive, we gotta do a home and home, and the games will probably draw a lot less than a "conference" game would, whether it counts or not.

Finally, another issue in the the SWAC is the TEXAS/BAMMA School thing. They are just not rivals like SU, JSU, GRAMBLING, ALCORN are. THe history, tradition, close proximity, and (what this all adds up to) fans interest/attendance will probably never be the same. The SWAC can either built on it or tear it down for a pipe dream that looks good on paper.
 
No its not that hard and if that would be the case fine - it makes no difference - obviously if you make those kinds of changes in scheduling you wont play someone. And if we only went to TX every 2 years versus every year - so what?

You are getting caught up in semantics of what I put up - all of that can be worked out - I only was trying to show how you could play 7 conference games and have those count and still be able to schedule 4 non conference games.
 
And once again Lewis and TP you proved what I said was the problem in going to a 7 game system - TRADITION.

And just so you know Lewis, I was not comparing the SWAC to the SEC from a competion stand point - only to show that they had some pains in scheduling when they went to a split division...Auburn lost Tennessee as an every year rival and their rivalry is just as deep as the Alabama/Tennesse game.

TP if there were 7 games, PV could schedule Langston with one of the 4 open games they would have and the same for Bama State.

But as bad as you guys dont like it - if the conference does expand to 12 teams, you will see that kind of schedule and it might be even worse because you would have more years to pass before you would be able to play certain teams.
 
majiksity, I was not talking about a competive stand point, I am talking about scheduling Home only money games instead of HOME and HOME games. These schools make big money by schedule a home game that they don't have to return a visit to next year. That's my point. They can pay schools off to only come to them, and still sellout. Most swac schools cannot.

In the SWAC, those traditional rivals fill the seats. What if we split the leauge into north and south instead of east, west and put Ala State and AAMU in different division and said yall ain't playing each other every year. No way in hell would yall go for that. Who are you gonna replace them with, Pine Bluff, or some non conference game, just to make a conference schedule balanced.

It's not rocket science to arbitralily figure out a 7 game conference schedule. The real art of it is doing it in a way that doesn't sacrifice the good things some schools have built up over the years (like JSU-SU-ALCORN-GRAM, PV-GRAM, PV-TSU, AAMU-Ala STATE)
 
majiksity said:
But as bad as you guys dont like it - if the conference does expand to 12 teams, you will see that kind of schedule and it might be even worse because you would have more years to pass before you would be able to play certain teams.
Click to expand...

And that would not bother me one bit. I think that all things would balance out in the end. In the two years that we don't play SU, we would lose money but it would not be tramatic if the two schools planned it right. And that is what AD's get paid for. When the SU game is in Jackson (50K fans at $15 each) is roughly 750K before expenses. I would assume that after expenses, we get in the neighborhood of 500K off of the SU game. If we can get two decent classics in those two years (ie the CCC) that pays 200K each, you are not losing much. We are getting calls for classics right now that I know pay that much. A home-home with FAMU for SU is probably about as lucrative as a home-home with JSU since their stadium only holds 30K. The only team that would lose money here would be JSU but when you think about how much money we lose when we play PV (5000K fans max), we are doing better by breaking even with the NWStates of the world.
 
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