Church and State


Apaquelypse

Delta Tau 04
So, in one of the threads in the round table dicussion, a few of the posters are in agreement that preachers should not discuss politics from the pulpit.

Where do you/we stand on this position?
 
I'm not sure on this one. Maybe someone can find a scripture. Many of our Black Leaders got organizations started through the church.
 



So, in one of the threads in the round table dicussion, a few of the posters are in agreement that preachers should not discuss politics from the pulpit.

Where do you/we stand on this position?

It is man's discretion to do as he see fit. However, based on my experience and what I have gleaned from scripture, I feel the Church should teach God's word and leave the selection of a particular candidate, to the parishioners. If God's word is preached effectively, Church members should be able to make an informed decision. To parade one candidate above another is only preferring one flawed sinful man to another flawed sinful man. Given that we only vote based on what we THINK is for our better Good (myself including), only God knows what is in our best interest. What is refreshing in the end, No candidate (good or bad) can be elected without God allowing him/her to be elected. So on/or before November 4th, I will cast my vote for Obama; on November 5th I will accept God's will and pray for the success of the next President.

Case in Point: Good or BAD?God allowed George W. Bush to become president.


Matthew 22:21. They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Local Churches should render God's work and the World (Caesar) should render that which is of the world. The Church should be the light that influence the world (through Biblical discernment) not the world influencing the Church (via political favors).​

Proverbs 21:1. The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

At the end of the day, God controls all. He will even use the errors and evil acts of Presidents and Kings to bring about His good works (Roman 8:28).​

Colossians 1:16-17
* For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
* And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Through God's will (direct or permissive) all thing are created and/or put in place. In simple terms, God allowed our country to have the office of President. Even though I do not understand, He allowed George W. Bush to be our President. Our God is both Omnipotent and Omniscient.​

Good Day and God Bless
 
I am starting to beleive more and more each day that the government and the country is in the shape that it is in because of the removeal of the church's doctrine from the heart of all policies and laws.

I think this is a major reason the church has lost its flavor... the church remains out of the loop because it doesnt want to pay taxes. How so sad. :smh:

I feel you though Illi, but I just beleive its time for christians and their churches to become proactive toward the way the country is lead.
 
I am starting to beleive more and more each day that the government and the country is in the shape that it is in because of the removeal of the church's doctrine from the heart of all policies and laws.

I think this is a major reason the church has lost its flavor... the church remains out of the loop because it doesnt want to pay taxes. How so sad. :smh:

I feel you though Illi, but I just beleive its time for christians and their churches to become proactive toward the way the country is lead.

This country IS in "BAAAADDD" shape. The school system failed miserably after Prayer was removed.
 
Government can be discussed in church, because there are several scriptures that talk about Christians "Obeying" Government. However, if a church is has a non profit status the IRS states that you cannot endorse a political candidate from the pullpit.
 
Government can be discussed in church, because there are several scriptures that talk about Christians "Obeying" Government. However, if a church is has a non profit status the IRS states that you cannot endorse a political candidate from the pullpit.


We must be cautious of 503c funding..

Ex 23:8 And thou shalt take no gift: for the gift blindeth the wise, and perverteth the words of the righteous.



All Gifts comes with a price. Nothing is free except the Blood of Jesus.
 
I am starting to beleive more and more each day that the government and the country is in the shape that it is in because of the removeal of the church's doctrine from the heart of all policies and laws.

I think this is a major reason the church has lost its flavor... the church remains out of the loop because it doesnt want to pay taxes. How so sad. :smh:

I feel you though Illi, but I just beleive its time for christians and their churches to become proactive toward the way the country is lead.

Thank God that you see the truth and the sad thing is that most Christian don't know this! They think the government is going to help them but what they fail to see is that the government is hurting them. Christians sat back and allowed the people they elected into office take God out schools, courthouses, and etc. God has sat back and allowed the heathens to come in and secretly rob us........that's biblical. God gave us everything and yet we act as if we did it ourselves. We look to men instead of God and wonder why things are the way they are. We try to justify evil and call it politically correct. It's just a matter of time before Satan and his boys are kicked out of heaven and down to earth to bring a fake peace. The bible states the majority of the world will go whoring after Lucifer thinking he is Jesus. The world is not prepared for Satan and his bag of tricks. Everything is being set up and God is controlling it all. Chaos is what you have when you take God's name out of everything you do. The people have failed God by allowing idiots to take God's name out of schools, courthouses, and making efforts to take it off the currency. God has done everything He can to show us He's the one who's blessed us all along, however many say God has nothing to do with the US. We're the youngest and most dominant nation on earth and people think God is not involved.:smh: There is not a military on earth that can go against the Christian nations. All you have to do is look at the Aircraft carriers we have compared to the rest of the world. Look at our submarines, ships, weapons, planes, special forces and tell me God is not involved. There is not one foreign country that has a base on our soil but we have plenty on theirs. We control the world, the majority of us are Christians and people say God is not involved. What more does He have to do for people to believe this is His nation?
 
Prayer was never taken out of schools.

Also, we are encouraged to pray in private or in silence (unknown to man) so that we are doing so, not for man's approval but for the approval of God.

Matthew 6:5-6

*And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
*But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


Prayer begins First at home (in the family). Again, if we live as Christians, we will be the light, through Godly examples. If someone feel the need to fight the System, go for it; I favor Jesus example, he was more concerned about saving souls than the corrupt political system of the time. Souls are eternal but Political Systems are temporal.

Ponder this:

If we focus our efforts such that all schools, courthouses, police stations, libraries and any other public facilities allow prayer, what would we really accomplish? However, if we fail to seek God for personal salvation, we will have Hell to Pay:angry:.

Matthew 25:46. And these (Unsaved Souls) shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous (Saved Souls) into life eternal.

In life, there are many battles to choose. We must remember that we can not be, nor do, all things.

Ecclesiastes 7:16. Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself?

Good day and God Bless
 
God has sat back and allowed the heathens to come in and secretly rob us........that's biblical.

It's just a matter of time before Satan and his boys are kicked out of heaven and down to earth to bring a fake peace.

Everything is being set up and God is controlling it all... We're the youngest and most dominant nation on earth and people think God is not involved........ and tell me God is not involved.

Are contradicting yourself and tell us where is Satan? If God has allowed things to happen, is He still not in control? Who is the "us" What happening in the U S is a result of greed and not God. This country is suffering because of decision made by the government and individuals and thats Bible. Israel, suffered because of decision made by her leaders and not God. In fact if you do your research, God was not in the picture, before the leaders made their decisions and thats Bible. So this country has only itself to blame and not God.

You need to Let God be God. And stop attempting to figure out what He?s up to and get with the program. You?ll do a whole lot less running into brick walls.

There is not one foreign country that has a base on our soil but we have plenty on theirs. We control the world, the majority of us are Christians and people say God is not involved. What more does He have to do for people to believe this is His nation?

To be honest why should those nations want bases in the U S, when they control the U S via economics? A majority of "Big Business" in the U S is controlled by foreign investments. The U S is the world largest debtor, importer of foreign made goods. The only thing the foreign nations have to do is go on strike or call in their foreign debt and this country will fall like dominos.

China has the world largest gold deposits, they have to do is flood the U S economy with gold and this country will go bankrupted. All Saudi, Iran, Iraq and other Middle Eastern Countries has to do is stop producing oil and this country will "go crazy" look at what's happening now. Think back to the 70 with the oil embargo, this country was at the mercy of OPEC.

There is not a military on earth that can go against the Christian nations.

Militarily, the U S ?picks on / invades? weaker and smaller countries. Do you recall when North Korea, back down the all powerful U S. The U S lost the war in Vietnam. The U S threaten China and China said ?Bring it on? Not only China and North Korea there has been other Nations that has challenged the U S. The U S never invaded the Soviet Union or India, Pakastine and other Middle Eastern Nations, without the support of those nations that are friendly toward the US. There were (9/11) Saudi pilots, the U S did not invade Saudi (Why).


The point is whoever control the purse strings controls the country.

Prayer was never taken out of schools.

In 1960's the Supreme Court The Supreme Court ruled that prayer, devotional Bible programs / activities in public schools are unconstitutional. One of the cases involved Madalyn O'Hair. This was done by changing the First Amendment via several court cases. In fact if I recall correctly from a class in preaching school the National Council of Churches and some Jewish organizations agreed with O'Hair's. And not a single Christian organization filed a brief in support of school prayer.

I think this is a major reason the church has lost its flavor... the church remains out of the loop because it doesnt want to pay taxes.


What information do you have the support your comment or is this you opinion? Churches has never refused to pay taxes, however in the early 1900"s that the IRS exempted churches from paying taxes, because of their mission. Later on the IRS added other organizations such as educational instutions (colleges, school), sciencetific organizations.
 
In 1960's the Supreme Court The Supreme Court ruled that prayer, devotional Bible programs / activities in public schools are unconstitutional. One of the cases involved Madalyn O'Hair. This was done by changing the First Amendment via several court cases. In fact if I recall correctly from a class in preaching school the National Council of Churches and some Jewish organizations agreed with O'Hair's. And not a single Christian organization filed a brief in support of school prayer.

What the Supreme Court ruled was that state sanctioned/sponsored/promoted school prayer was unconstitutional. It is perfectly legal for any student, group of students, teacher, group of teachers, or group of teachers/students to pray at school, as long as it is voluntary and doesn't disrupt normal school activities.
 
What the Supreme Court ruled was that state sanctioned/sponsored/promoted school prayer was unconstitutional. It is perfectly legal for any student, group of students, teacher, group of teachers, or group of teachers/students to pray at school, as long as it is voluntary and doesn't disrupt normal school activities.

And we have some awesome and radical prayer groups that meet daily in our local schools.


KEEP POLITICIANS OUT OF THE PULPIT

Don't endorse candidates or chide the ones that you don't like from the pulpit. If you want to do that in casual conversation with friends, enjoy yourself. In the end, you will have to pray diligently for whomever is the winner.

You do need to speak up on matters of public policy that come up on the ballot. Where they approach subjects that address biblical principles (like the definition of marriage which comes up in the State of Florida in November) we have a responsibility to make the biblical position clear and urge people to vote the biblical position.
 
Cornerstone church here in Nashville, is under scrutiny by the IRS because the preacher was asking the members to support several members of the congregation that was running for public office. He was turned in by some church members, who had warned him about this in the past.
 
Are contradicting yourself and tell us where is Satan? If God has allowed things to happen, is He still not in control? Who is the "us" What happening in the U S is a result of greed and not God. This country is suffering because of decision made by the government and individuals and thats Bible. Israel, suffered because of decision made by her leaders and not God. In fact if you do your research, God was not in the picture, before the leaders made their decisions and thats Bible. So this country has only itself to blame and not God.


No, I'm not contradicting myself by saying Satan is in heaven because scripture states that God is holding the wicked angels until the appointed time in the book of Jude. Revelations states that a war is going on in heaven and Satan and his angels will be kicked out of heaven to deceive the nations. It also states that Satan will perform miracles for the world to see by making fire come from heaven. No one will be able to show you this in the "OT" because it hasn't happened yet.

To be honest why should those nations want bases in the U S, when they control the U S via economics? A majority of "Big Business" in the U S is controlled by foreign investments. The U S is the world largest debtor, importer of foreign made goods. The only thing the foreign nations have to do is go on strike or call in their foreign debt and this country will fall like dominos. China has the world largest gold deposits, they have to do is flood the U S economy with gold and this country will go bankrupted. All Saudi, Iran, Iraq and other Middle Eastern Countries has to do is stop producing oil and this country will "go crazy" look at what's happening now. Think back to the 70 with the oil embargo, this country was at the mercy of OPEC.

The "US" is the greatest nation on earth the world has ever seen. We don't need China, China needs us. Why do we import from China when we can make the same product in the US? There is no reason we should be owing a heathen nation when God blessed us with better in our own back yard. The reason we import is because of the clowns we put into office. They sent our wealth to people who hate us. Why?

I'm letting God be God but some people think God is not involved in what goes on in the world. If He controls it then it's impossible to say He's not involved.

Militarily, the U S ?picks on / invades? weaker and smaller countries. Do you recall when North Korea, back down the all powerful U S. The U S lost the war in Vietnam. The U S threaten China and China said ?Bring it on? Not only China and North Korea there has been other Nations that has challenged the U S. The U S never invaded the Soviet Union or India, Pakastine and other Middle Eastern Nations, without the support of those nations that are friendly toward the US. There were (9/11) Saudi pilots, the U S did not invade Saudi (Why).

If China is so great then their military would be more powerful than the US. Any military person will tell you there is no military in the nation that can touch America. How many battle groups does China have? How many nuclear powered submarines does China have? The nation that controls the seas control the world. Who control the seas? The US Navy and there is not a force on earth that can battle us in the air or sea.
 



RB, it's apparent that you cannot comprehend. I attached data on the size of world militaries. Have you ever been in the military, if so what branch.
 
RB, it's apparent that you cannot comprehend. I attached data on the size of world militaries. Have you ever been in the military, if so what branch.

Yes, the US Navy for 5 1/2 years. If you read the wars in the bible you'll discover it's not about the size because God is with us when we go to battle. Most of God's armies were fewer in number compared to the enemy. If God is for you then who can stand against you? What's my point? China, India, Russia, and many other non-believing nations don't have God. It doesn't matter how many are with the heathen because God is with the Christians. Read about the thousands Joshua and David slayed with only a chosen few hundred men. They went up against thousands and dismantled their army.

2Ki 6:14 Therefore sent he thither horses, and chariots, and a great host: and they came by night, and compassed the city about.

2Ki 6:15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

2Ki 6:16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that [be] with us [are] more than they that [be] with them.

2Ki 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain [was] full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
 
Welcome from Pastor Arnold Murray:
"I'm so glad we are able to present yet another format for bringing our unique verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book teaching of the Holy Bible. From the Shepherd's Chapel in Gravette, AR we have been presenting our Father's Word via satellite since 1985 and today our daily one-hour Bible class is viewed on over 225 television stations in the United States and Canada. We have thousands of home satellite dish students throughout the western hemisphere who can view our Bible study 24-hours each day and thousands more listen via shortwave around the world. And now you too can join our Bible study over the Internet. Welcome to our daily Bible study hour!"

http://www.shepherdschapel.com/index.cfm

I also should point out to those not familiar with the Shepherd's Chapel that we are completely independent; therefore we are not affiliated with any other church, denomination or group. As a matter of record, the only group of which I am a member is with the "Chosin Few" which is a group of Korean War veterans comprised of various military factions who fought in one of the more famous battles of that war. I am very proud to have served as a U.S. Marine in this severe winter battle in which approximately 12,000 of our troops faced a massive surprise attack by an estimated 120,000 of the Chinese communist enemy. Although suffering many casualties, the Marines and our British allies inflicted far more damage to the Chinese and were able to ultimately escape (with our dead and injured) from the Chosin Reservoir where we were at a grave disadvantage. Despite being wounded I survived this war because, I believe, the Lord had further plans and a purpose for my life. I have never forgotten the discipline of the U.S. Marine Corps and the lessons learned in war. If I teach like a Marine DI (Drill Instructor) it is with love because I know first hand the value of well educated and trained troops. In fact the root word behind the word "disciples" is "discipline". The Bible frequently uses military terms to convey how we must prepare to face spiritual warfare. As Christians our ultimate enemy is not "flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, to wit we must put on the whole armour of God" (Ephesians 6:10-19).

If you study primarily via the Internet be sure to let the Chapel know the next time you write!

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http://www.shepherdschapel.com/critics.htm
 
I know this is off subject but I want to share something with those who are interested. We know that God has horses and chariots and Ezekiel called them wheels because that's what they resembled to him, but how do they appear and vanish. What did it look like when Christ appeared and vanished in front of the disciples? How does God open our eyes whereby we see His technology? This is a sample of how God opens our eyes to see things we wouldn't normally see. This is what Elisha and the servant saw but there were thousands instead of one. Notice in verse 36 how Jesus just all of a sudden appeared while they were talking. What's my point? He didn't use the door to come in, He just appeared to them. What's the lesson? He was always there but they couldn't see Him. Jesus noticed they didn't believe Him and they though He was a ghost. What does Jesus do? He ask them to give Him some meat to show them that spiritual bodies can eat food and He was not a ghost. This is nothing new because God did the same thing with Abraham. The same thing goes for our guardian angels. They are with us, however we can't see them. They can appear and disappear at will. When we die we take on our spiritual body as well. What does it look like? Look in the mirror but imagine it 100 times better with no defects........perfected. How do they vanish? Look at the video below.

Luk 24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed [together] and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

Luk 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

Luk 24:31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Luk 24:36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you.
 
Luk 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and "supposed" that they had seen a spirit.

Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit(SPIRITUAL BODY) hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them [his] hands and [his] feet.

Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

Luk 24:42 And they gave him(JESUS) a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

Luk 24:43 And he(JESUS) took [it], and did eat before them.

Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

God's wheel vanishes into another dimension

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwPOBClD1QY
 
What information do you have the support your comment or is this you opinion? Churches has never refused to pay taxes, however in the early 1900"s that the IRS exempted churches from paying taxes, because of their mission. Later on the IRS added other organizations such as educational instutions (colleges, school), sciencetific organizations.


It is my opinion, but don't negate it as if there is no truth to the statement. Churches have stopped preaching the uncomprimised word of GOD because of money. They have stopped preaching and teaching on the fundamentals of Godly living because it forces them to speak out on things that are not politically correct. And the law and its favors have kept The Church in check. So The Church goes, So goes the nation.

The church should be speaking out on politics so loudly, that folks who want to get into politics will want to serve God and God only through their political platforms and policies. The church should be speaking out on politics so loudly, that politicians who are serving right now, should be shaking in their boots about accepting money under the table from an interest group. The church should be speaking out on politics so loudly, that the intrest group should be afriad to even approach a politician about some under handed stuff.

But The Church cant say anything, because The Church itself, has allowed itself to become that of an interest group and have allowed politics, crooked politics might I add, and greed, and false doctrines, and lusts of the flesh, and secrets, and scandals, to run a nation that houses God's chosen people. The Church, my friend, has lost its flavor.
 
It is my opinion, but don't negate it as if there is no truth to the statement. Churches have stopped preaching the uncomprimised word of GOD because of money. They have stopped preaching and teaching on the fundamentals of Godly living because it forces them to speak out on things that are not politically correct. And the law and its favors have kept The Church in check. So The Church goes, So goes the nation.

The church should be speaking out on politics so loudly, that folks who want to get into politics will want to serve God and God only through their political platforms and policies. The church should be speaking out on politics so loudly, that politicians who are serving right now, should be shaking in their boots about accepting money under the table from an interest group. The church should be speaking out on politics so loudly, that the intrest group should be afriad to even approach a politician about some under handed stuff.

But The Church cant say anything, because The Church itself, has allowed itself to become that of an interest group and have allowed politics, crooked politics might I add, and greed, and false doctrines, and lusts of the flesh, and secrets, and scandals, to run a nation that houses God's chosen people. The Church, my friend, has lost its flavor.

You truly understand and have eyes to see. May God continue to bless your growth in Christ. You see things others don't see and God has allowed you to see truth. Its a beautiful thing to come into the truth and I pray you'll stay sharp because we have a job to do.
 
It is my opinion, but don't negate it as if there is no truth to the statement. Churches have stopped preaching the uncomprimised word of GOD because of money. They have stopped preaching and teaching on the fundamentals of Godly living because it forces them to speak out on things that are not politically correct. And the law and its favors have kept The Church in check. So The Church goes, So goes the nation.

The church should be speaking out on politics so loudly, that folks who want to get into politics will want to serve God and God only through their political platforms and policies. The church should be speaking out on politics so loudly, that politicians who are serving right now, should be shaking in their boots about accepting money under the table from an interest group. The church should be speaking out on politics so loudly, that the intrest group should be afriad to even approach a politician about some under handed stuff.

But The Church cant say anything, because The Church itself, has allowed itself to become that of an interest group and have allowed politics, crooked politics might I add, and greed, and false doctrines, and lusts of the flesh, and secrets, and scandals, to run a nation that houses God's chosen people. The Church, my friend, has lost its flavor.

Webster defines your statement as:

Fact (fakt)​
  1. a thing that has actually happened or that is really true; thing that has been or is
  2. the state of things as they are; reality; actuality; truth

You have stated the root cause, neither this country or most local churches will address. Therefore, WE as the Body of Christ (the True Church) must take on this responsilbilty and be the light that We do not see in the World and sadly do not see in most local Chruches. Such will mean that we will probably stand Along among many (who are either false, faithless or weak Christians). I speak this, not by what I have read, but what I have experienced. I am not sure if Christ will except those who compromise, I based my assumption on the following:

Matthew 10:33. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Revelation 3:15-16.

*I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
*So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
 
RB

What area of the Navy. If you were in the military, then you would know that the military that control the air, not the sea that wins the war. That's why most technology is directed toward "space" and not under the water and that the militaries are reducing their surface fleet and increasing their Air Force.
 
RB

What area of the Navy. If you were in the military, then you would know that the military that control the air, not the sea that wins the war. That's why most technology is directed toward "space" and not under the water and that the militaries are reducing their surface fleet and increasing their Air Force.

Do not we launch the world's greatest air strike from the sea? What other nation you know have more planes ready to be launched in the Pacific or Atlantic at the same time? The US is the only nation that can instantly attack and have the muscle to back it up. You should learn the motto of the Marines, "GOD FAMILY and COUNTRY." Did you notice who they put first in what they do? We serve the "Almighty" and we would crush any heathen nation that dare go against the best in the world. God is on our side because we believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as Lord and savior of our life. The heathen doesn't and for that cause God makes sure we defeat the enemy. God is on the throne and He loves those that love Him. He protects those that serve Him. He gives us victory before one sword is drawn. Who is the heathen that he should dare think to battle a Christian? Who is he? Let him make war with the Christian and watch him and their leader fall. I pray God continue to bless our Christian military. The heathen can't say the things I state because he doesn't believe in God. The nation that has God gets the victory.

The heathen's day is soon coming and we will witness God destroying millions of heathens with 180lb hailstones destroying every soul that unites with them to invade the Christian nations. God says that it will be He that will gather the heathen and all its armies together to rise up against the Christian nations. God says that He will gather them together in the end times and will bring them through the Alaskan mountains to only destroy them with nature so that they will know He is God. What's my message to the heathen? Death to all who deny God!
 
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