60 million dollar stadium shut down


Uhhh ... yeah. It's safe to say I'm a pro-contractor type person. No comment on any politicians ....

I've seen these architect/engineer vs. contractor battles up close and personal. I have family members on both sides.

In the end, it's not good business for either side to put out a bad product. In situations like this though, it seems to be inevitable that one side blames the other.
 
No man... design firms are hired based on the lowest bit also. There is a cost for the design and development phase as well as for construction. An engineering design could have errors if they allowed a less experienced engineer do the load analysis and the PE did not thoroughly check the analysis before stamping. Or it could be an issue of a designer who is past his prime (shoulda retired years ago) and overlooked something. Might not have done a good pre-design survey.... all types of possibilities.


That's a first. I guess experience and qualification means nothing when selecting a design firm. In that case, a design engineering firm that mainly do municipal utility design can get selected over a experienced structural design firm for a structural project. When I worked for City of Los Angeles as a Public Works engineer, we would select a design engineering firm based on qualification and experience through request for proposal (RFP) or request for qualification (RFQ). After selection of the firm, then we work out some type of design fee. Most design fees are no more than 10% to 15% of the total project.
 
Last edited:



That's a first. I guess experience and qualification means nothing when selecting a design firm. In that case, a design engineering firm that mainly do municipal utility design can get selected over a experienced structural design firm for a structural project. When I worked for City of Los Angeles as a Public Works engineer, we would select a design engineering firm based on qualification and experience through request for proposal (RFP) or request for qualification (RFQ). After selection of the firm, then we work out some type of design fee. Most design fees are no more than 10% to 15% of the total project.
They are whittled down based on qualifications, but most often, the best value ($$) wins. A lot of qualified firms will underbid slightly just to get the work, then have most of the work done by less experienced, lower paid engineers overseen by SR level folks. Stuff slips through the cracks.

Also, companies are bidding on design only, then later the clients are bidding out the construction phase separately, based on that design.
 
They are whittled down based on qualifications, but most often, the best value ($$) wins. A lot of qualified firms will underbid slightly just to get the work, then have most of the work done by less experienced, lower paid engineers overseen by SR level folks. Stuff slips through the cracks.

Also, companies are bidding on design only, then later the clients are bidding out the construction phase separately, based on that design.

If what you say is true, the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) definitely don't like this. Cost should not be the main issue for engineering services since engineering is only approximately 10% to 15% of the total cost of a project.
 
ALLEN, Texas -- A $60 million Texas high school stadium that got national attention for its grandeur and price tag will be shut down indefinitely 18 months after its opening, school district officials said Thursday.

Eagle Stadium in the Dallas suburb of Allen will be closed until at least June for an examination of "extensive cracking" in the concrete of the stadium's concourse, the district said in a statement Thursday. The closure will likely affect home games at the stadium this fall, the district said.

Ben Pogue of Pogue Construction, which built the stadium, told reporters that the cracks range from a quarter-inch to three-quarters of an inch wide.
http://espn.go.com/dallas/story/_/id/10528972/cracks-force-closure-60m-stadium-allen-texas

Sounds like a dayum earthquake or some bad prairie soil.
 
Last edited:
Sounds like a dayum earthquake or some bad prairie soil.

It definitely sounds like there some differential settlement occurring. What is causing it is what they have to find out or the problem would be re-occurring. If it's from seismic activities, the stadium would have to be made earthquake proof, which is done all the time in California on old structures that were built under old earthquake standards.
 
Differential settlement. You don't say ....

Somebody better hope the contractor skimped on the piles (which I doubt he did). :emlaugh:
 
All concrete will experience surface cracks during the curing process, but 1/4" to 3/4" cracks are not surface cracks from curing. The stadium could have been built on an inactive fault line that decided to shift a little, but as it stands, nothing can be ruled out until a complete forensic engineering analysis is done. There are several firms in Texas that do this type of work. I'm sure the contractor followed the engineering design plans to the "tee" without asking for a change order to increase the amount in his contract. :emlaugh:

http://expertpages.com/experts.php/engineering_forensic_disciplines_texas.htm
 
I remember looking at a Texas map last year that showed where most fracking was taking place. I was shocked at the amount of fracking that was going on---There were dishes and other objects broken in some areas.
 
Last edited:
What's really funny, like Louisiana which has experienced several environmental disasters in recent years with Piyush "Bobby" Jindal as its governor, Texas is a red state that thinks government regulations hinders and impedes progress, instead of protecting people and the environment. These know-it-all idiots have cost tax payers more money than it is worth, only to make a quick buck for themselves.

Here's a definition of differential settlement for those that don't know what it is. Differential or uneven settlement occurs when the soil beneath a structure can not bear the weights imposed. The settlement of a structure is the amount that the structure will “sink” during and after construction. Differential settlements become a big problem when the foundation settles unevenly. The more uneven the settlement is, the greater the problems are to the building's structure. Basically, a structures that settles unevenly.

http://construction.about.com/od/Gl...lements-What-Are-Differential-Settlements.htm

When contractors are allowed to redesign a project, it is like watching the tail wag the dog. Although the engineer lost his license to practice engineering in the Kansas City Hotel skywalk failure, it wasn't the engineer's design that wouldn't have work. The contractor couldn't properly build the skywalk the way the engineer design it that cause the problem, in which the contractor ended up redesigning the structure without being properly reviewed by an engineer. The engineer in the skywalk failure lost his license for designing something that was hard to construct, which is why engineering firms start hiring construction engineers to review engineering design plans prior to construction for constructability.

Three days after the disaster, Wayne G. Lischka,[16] an architectural engineer hired by The Kansas City Star newspaper, discovered a significant change of the original design of the walkways. Reportage of the event later earned the Star and its associated publication the Kansas City Times a Pulitzer Prize for local news reporting in 1982.[17] Radio station KJLA would later earn a National Associated Press award for its reporting on the night of the disaster.

The two walkways were suspended from a set of 1.25 in (32 mm) diameter[18] steel tie rods, with the second floor walkway hanging directly under the fourth floor walkway. The fourth floor walkway platform was supported on three cross-beams suspended by steel rods retained by nuts. The cross-beams were box girders made from C-channel strips welded together lengthwise, with a hollow space between them. The original design by Jack D. Gillum and Associates specified three pairs of rods running from the second floor to the ceiling. Investigators determined eventually that this design supported only 60 percent of the minimum load required by Kansas City building codes.[19]

Havens Steel Company, the contractor responsible for manufacturing the rods, objected to the original plan of Jack D. Gillum and Associates, since it required the whole of the rod below the fourth floor to be screw threaded in order to screw on the nuts to hold the fourth floor walkway in place. These threads would probably have been damaged and rendered unusable as the structure for the fourth floor was hoisted into position with the rods in place. Havens therefore proposed an alternate plan in which two separate sets of tie rods would be used: one connecting the fourth floor walkway to the ceiling, and the other connecting the second floor walkway to the fourth floor walkway.[20]

This design change would prove fatal. In the original design, the beams of the fourth floor walkway had to support only the weight of the fourth floor walkway, with the weight of the second floor walkway supported completely by the rods. In the revised design, however, the fourth floor beams were required to support both the fourth floor walkway and the second floor walkway hanging from it. With the load on the fourth-floor beams doubled, Havens' proposed design could bear only 30 percent of the mandated minimum load (as opposed to 60 percent for the original design).

The serious flaws of the revised design were compounded by the fact that both designs placed the bolts directly through a welded joint connecting two C-channels, the weakest structural point in the box beams. Photographs of the wreckage show excessive deformations of the cross-section.[21] During the failure, the box beams split along the weld and the nut supporting them slipped through the resulting gap between the two C-channels which had been welded together.

Investigators concluded that the basic problem was a lack of proper communication between Jack D. Gillum and Associates and Havens Steel. In particular, the drawings prepared by Jack D. Gillum and Associates were only preliminary sketches but were interpreted by Havens as finalized drawings. Jack D. Gillum and Associates failed to review the initial design thoroughly, and accepted Havens' proposed plan without performing basic calculations that would have revealed its serious intrinsic flaws — in particular, the doubling of the load on the fourth-floor beams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse
 
Last edited:
Interesting comments, cracks in concrete can be caused by several problems - soil not being able to support the structure, poor concrete mix ratio, undersize reinforcing bars, concrete not properly vibrated, weather conditions when it was poured.
 
What's really funny, like Louisiana which has experienced several environmental disasters in recent years with Piyush "Bobby" Jindal as its governor, Texas is a red state that thinks government regulations hinders and impedes progress, instead of protecting people and the environment. These know-it-all idiots have cost tax payers more money than it is worth, only to make a quick buck for themselves.

Here's a definition of differential settlement for those that don't know what it is. Differential or uneven settlement occurs when the soil beneath a structure can not bear the weights imposed. The settlement of a structure is the amount that the structure will “sink” during and after construction. Differential settlements become a big problem when the foundation settles unevenly. The more uneven the settlement is, the greater the problems are to the building's structure. Basically, a structures that settles unevenly.

http://construction.about.com/od/Gl...lements-What-Are-Differential-Settlements.htm

When contractors are allowed to redesign a project, it is like watching the tail wag the dog. Although the engineer lost his license to practice engineering in the Kansas City Hotel skywalk failure, it wasn't the engineer's design that wouldn't have work. The contractor couldn't properly build the skywalk the way the engineer design it that cause the problem, in which the contractor ended up redesigning the structure without being properly reviewed by an engineer. The engineer in the skywalk failure lost his license for designing something that was hard to construct, which is why engineering firms start hiring construction engineers to review engineering design plans prior to construction for constructability.

I remember that incident in Kansas City, which happened years ago. Very tragic.
 



Interesting comments, cracks in concrete can be caused by several problems - soil not being able to support the structure, poor concrete mix ratio, undersize reinforcing bars, concrete not properly vibrated, weather conditions when it was poured.

:tup:

Accept for the soil strength/optimum soil compaction, concrete mixture, and the under sizing of the reinforcing steel/rebar, everything else you stated goes in the category of lack of oversight and poor construction work. I'm glad somebody realized that the cracks in the structure might not have been from just a bad design. The structure itself also could have been poorly constructed, which occurs a lot.
 
I remember that incident in Kansas City, which happened years ago. Very tragic.

The engineer and the contractor failed to communicate with one another when a much needed change order was required. The contractor proceeded with a conceptual plan that didn't get a final approval from the engineer that ultimately ended up being tragic. The support loads of the skywalk were improperly placed. One live loads (people walking and standing on the skywalk bridge) were added, the structure collapsed.

I'm sure Allen, TX has hired a forensic engineer to determine what caused the cracks.
 
Interesting comments, cracks in concrete can be caused by several problems - soil not being able to support the structure, poor concrete mix ratio, undersize reinforcing bars, concrete not properly vibrated, weather conditions when it was poured.

Conducting the soil tests and designing a structure the soil can support - the responsibility of the engineers.

The size of the rebar, the type and strength of concrete to be used and so forth - all of those specifications are in the construction documents - specified by the engineers. Slump tests are performed on the batches of concrete brought to the job - by the engineers. Although it's possible, the chance of a contractor not using the proper materials or not building to spec on a project like that is very slim.

Vibrating the concrete is probably the easiest and simplest step in the process. Avoiding adverse weather conditions for pouring concrete - in Texas - is fairly simple also.

Contractors follow plans and specs. It's that simple. That's what they agreed to do when they signed the contract. There may be a few rogue contractors who try to do it their way and maybe make a few extra bucks, but those guys don't last because it always catches up with them. I seriously doubt there are very many construction companies foolish enough to skimp on a 60 million dollar concrete structure.

The problem with this structure is more likely improper soil/geotechnical analysis and improper design based on that flawed analysis. JAG89's boys fugged up. Plain and simple. :lol:

We need to continue to follow this story. See whether the problem is due to improper plans and specs or improper execution of the plans and specs. I have a feeling .... :emlaugh:
 
Last edited:
Like I previously stated, I'm sure contractors don't bid a job based on the amount of change orders they foresee that would increase their contract amount to make those extra bucks. :emlaugh:

I've given two incidents where contractors decided to do their own thing, which one ended up being fatal.
 
:tup:

Accept for the soil strength/optimum soil compaction, concrete mixture, and the under sizing of the reinforcing steel/rebar, everything else you stated goes in the category of lack of oversight and poor construction work. I'm glad somebody realized that the cracks in the structure might not have been from just a bad design. The structure itself also could have been poorly constructed, which occurs a lot.

I've been saying bad design since page 1. LOL
 
I've been saying bad design since page 1. LOL

You do realize there were other individuals involved in this project beside the design engineers. I'm sure forensic engineers will review the engineer's plans to check for design flaws, but if they don't discover any flaws in the engineer's plans, I guess they would be left with trying to determine how the stadium was constructed.
 
You do realize there were other individuals involved in this project beside the design engineers. I'm sure forensic engineers will review the engineer's plans to check for design flaws, but if they don't discover any flaws in the engineer's plans, I guess they would be left with trying to determine how the stadium was constructed.

Engineers do more than just drawings. They do the analysis, planning, surveys, etc all before creating one drawing.
 
Engineers do more than just drawings. They do the analysis, planning, surveys, etc all before creating one drawing.

Which is considered the preliminary DESIGN phase for most projects and should have been incorporated in the final design plans. If you have ever prepared design plans before, you would know that the final design plans or specifications would include boring logs/geotechnical report, survey plans, and other analysis that is important to the project. Like I previously stated, the forensic engineers will definitely check the design plans for any flaws first, but if they don't find any, they would move on to how the stadium was constructed.
 
Last edited:
Let me ask yall a question. In situations like this after it is decided who was liable or at fault, what type of punishment usually takes place? Fines, penalties, non payment for work etc.
 
Back
Top