31,000 Differing Christian Denominations. Why?

[JayRob]

The biblical god in 1Corinthians 14:33 claims not to be the "author of confusion", but if this is so, why are there thousands and thousands of differing beliefs IN HIS NAME, by folks reading the same book.

Can anyone explain this in logical terms?

 

[CEE DOG]

If you have to ask then you need to realize that you are the author of the confusion. It is you who's confused. As Christians we know who he is. Don't worry though, he still loves you despite it all!!!

 

[dacontinent]

Logical reasons:

• Ethnicity [200]
• Geography [7]
• Regionalization [500]
• Language [35]
• Economics [12]
• Vision [1000]
• Ministry targets [1000]
• Isolationism [30]
• Greed [5000]
• Interpretation of Scripture [1000]
• Gender bias [75]

...to name a few.

None of the logical reasons have anything to do with the authorship of the mission. Humans divide for lots of reasons, good and bad. Paul and Barnabas parted company over whether to include John Mark in the evangelistic team. This is nothing new; just something that has evolved over time.

If you take those 11 above and the conservative number of derivations that I (my own opinion) gave to them, and generate the permutations, you will come up with a whole lot bigger number than 31K. As long as they point to Jesus Christ - the Way, the Truth, the Life; the only way to the Father; the only name through which man can be saved ... I can work with them on some level.

 

[JayRob]

Logical reasons:

• 
  

  [*]Ethnicity [200]
  [*]Geography [7]
  [*]Regionalization [500]
  [*]Language [35]
  [*]Economics [12]
  [*]Vision [1000]
  [*]Ministry targets [1000]
  [*]Isolationism [30]
  [*]Greed [5000]
  [*]Interpretation of Scripture [1000]
  [*]Gender bias [75]

...to name a few.

None of the logical reasons have anything to do with the authorship of the mission. Humans divide for lots of reasons, good and bad. Paul and Barnabas parted company over whether to include John Mark in the evangelistic team. This is nothing new; just something that has evolved over time.

If you take those 11 above and the conservative number of derivations that I (my own opinion) gave to them, and generate the permutations, you will come up with a whole lot bigger number than 31K. As long as they point to Jesus Christ - the Way, the Truth, the Life; the only way to the Father; the only name through which man can be saved ... I can work with them on some level.

As long as they point to Jesus Christ? You're totally contradicting your own bible in so many areas. The bible stated that the one church must ALL be speaking the same thing.
All of the above that you pointed out are signs of division. Just because someone has a different language doesn't equate to having totally different doctrines, neither does economics, race, etc. LOL!! What you mentioned are merely excuses to try and explain why a church that's supposed to be ONE is sorely divided.
Christianity has more doctrinal differences than any religion on earth.

Having thousands of differing doctrines is nowhere near speaking the same thing. For you to indirectly claim so is highly disingenuous.

Your bible says that there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free. You say differently. Why is that?

By the way, where did you get those numbers from? Please post your sources please.

 

[Storm96]

There are different denominations because various groups distorted the word to fit their own agendas or to justify their actions which might've ran counter to what was written.

 

[dacontinent]

As long as they point to Jesus Christ? You're totally contradicting your own bible in so many areas. The bible stated that the one church must ALL be speaking the same thing.
All of the above that you pointed out are signs of division. Just because someone has a different language doesn't equate to having totally different doctrines, neither does economics, race, etc. LOL!! What you mentioned are merely excuses to try and explain why a church that's supposed to be ONE is sorely divided.
Christianity has more doctrinal differences than any religion on earth.

Having thousands of differing doctrines is nowhere near speaking the same thing. For you to indirectly claim so is highly disingenuous.

Your bible says that there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free. You say differently. Why is that?

By the way, where did you get those numbers from? Please post your sources please.

Let me respond by asking you some questions.

1. Was the question that you asked about the number of denominations or the number of doctrinal canons?
2. Did I answer the question that you asked?
3. Given that there are 31,000 denominations, how many different canons of doctrine are there?
4. Of the 31,000 that you claim, how many differ only in ethnicity or region or nationality or some other singular descriptor that has nothing to do with doctrine at all?
5. What same thing or things must the church speak?

I don't say anything different from what the Bible says about our differences: Just love people like Jesus does.

 

[JayRob]

Let me respond by asking you some questions.

1. Was the question that you asked about the number of denominations or the number of doctrinal canons?
2. Did I answer the question that you asked?
3. Given that there are 31,000 denominations, how many different canons of doctrine are there?
4. Of the 31,000 that you claim, how many differ only in ethnicity or region or nationality or some other singular descriptor that has nothing to do with doctrine at all?
5. What same thing or things must the church speak?

I don't say anything different from what the Bible says about our differences: Just love people like Jesus does.

--I'm simply asking, why so many denominations? If the church is supposed to be one and speaking the same thing as commanded by Paul, something's gone mighty wrong with his command for all to speak the same thing. As far as what those things are, you need to ask Paul because he is supposed to have said it in 1Corinthians 1:10, "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you, but [that] you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Again, the Christian religion is the most divided religion on the planet and I have to ask why is this?

--Just believing in Jesus and his love is all there is to it?
According to the bible, you're mistaken. The Jesus character stated that many would come in his name saying that he was the Christ and crying lord, lord, but would still end up in damnation. This contradicts your theory of one needing only to love like Jesus did.

--You posted numbers as to why Christians are divided into so many denominations, however you posted no resources verifying whether or not those numbers are valid. I'm simply asking for your sources.

 

[Tpop33]

---You posted numbers as to why Christians are divided into so many denominations, however you posted no resources verifying whether or not those numbers are valid. I'm simply asking for your sources.

Post your sources, JayRob!

 

[dacontinent]

--I'm simply asking, why so many denominations? If the church is supposed to be one and speaking the same thing as commanded by Paul, something's gone mighty wrong with his command for all to speak the same thing. As far as what those things are, you need to ask Paul because he is supposed to have said it in 1Corinthians 1:10, "Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you, but [that] you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."

Again, the Christian religion is the most divided religion on the planet and I have to ask why is this?

--Just believing in Jesus and his love is all there is to it?
According to the bible, you're mistaken. The Jesus character stated that many would come in his name saying that he was the Christ and crying lord, lord, but would still end up in damnation. This contradicts your theory of one needing only to love like Jesus did.

--You posted numbers as to why Christians are divided into so many denominations, however you posted no resources verifying whether or not those numbers are valid. I'm simply asking for your sources.

You asked for logical reasons why so many denominations and I gave you a few...some good and some shameful...but all valid and documented. The numbers I gave you were my own and I deem them conservative. The point that I was trying to make is that even if your 31,000 number is correct, there is a awful lot of doctrinal redundancy within that number for reasons like the ones I gave you.

Now, when Paul wrote that letter, he addressed it to the church at Corinth. The rest of the letter identifies some issues that were particular to the church in that city. They could be applicable to any church in any city. Some of those things were divisive in that church that were not applicable to Philippi, Ephesus, Rome, Galatia, etc. The focus of ministry was different for Corinth than it was for those other places. Some had great pastors, others were more evangelistic, and still others had great ministries of helps. All of those giftings are needed in the church and should be celebrated among its constituents. However, each church has its own mission, focus, strengths, weaknesses. Paul's instructions were to not let those things become dividing lines ("I am of Paul ... I am of Apollos...", etc.) so that the message of the gospel of the kingdom gets lost. Some people get lost on status, median income, what autos are driven, what designers one wears, tithes, offerings, deacons, elders, ... all kinds of stuff. That is why I mentioned the separation of Paul and Barnabas over whether or not John Mark was lazy. We can choose to divide over whether the grape juice is red or purple but we cannot choose to divide on Christ crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and return.

 

[JayRob]

Post your sources, JayRob!

No problem. Actually there are more denominations as outlined in the following website:

The Facts and Stats on "33,000 Denominations"

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/a106.htm

 

[JayRob]

You asked for logical reasons why so many denominations and I gave you a few...some good and some shameful...but all valid and documented.

Do the shameful numbers reflect the religion of Christianity and do the large numbers of differing doctrines reflect a lack of clarity in bible?
It amazes me that so many thousands of groups have differing opinions on such simple matters.

The numbers I gave you were my own and I deem them conservative.

If you're the source of your own numbers, then I can't count them as being valid. It's as if you just chose numbers out of the sky and posted them. You can do better than that.

The point that I was trying to make is that even if your 31,000 number is correct, there is a awful lot of doctrinal redundancy within that number for reasons like the ones I gave you.

Even if there is, 31,000 is a huge number. Let's cut the number in half. That would still leave more than 15,000 differing denominations, when there should only be one....IF the same spirit is leading each group.
The 31,000 number is more like what it would be if the religion was man-made. Hint, hint.

Now, when Paul wrote that letter, he addressed it to the church at Corinth.

So if it was written for the Corinthians, why are you reading it?

The rest of the letter identifies some issues that were particular to the church in that city. They could be applicable to any church in any city. Some of those things were divisive in that church that were not applicable to Philippi, Ephesus, Rome, Galatia, etc.

How can you say it was written for the Corinthians, then in the next sentence say it could be applicable to any church?

The focus of ministry was different for Corinth than it was for those other places.

So there were no divisions in the other churches?

Some had great pastors, others were more evangelistic, and still others had great ministries of helps. All of those giftings are needed in the church and should be celebrated among its constituents. However, each church has its own mission, focus, strengths, weaknesses. Paul's instructions were to not let those things become dividing lines ("I am of Paul ... I am of Apollos...", etc.) so that the message of the gospel of the kingdom gets lost.

Obviously this is not true today in the Christian religion. If the Paul character is real and if he was resurrected today, he probably wouldn't even recogniz the Christian religion he helped start because there's so much confusion and division.

Some people get lost on status, median income, what autos are driven, what designers one wears, tithes, offerings, deacons, elders, ... all kinds of stuff.

Whose fault is that?

That is why I mentioned the separation of Paul and Barnabas over whether or not John Mark was lazy. We can choose to divide over whether the grape juice is red or purple but we cannot choose to divide on Christ crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and return.

So you want to cherry-pick which doctrines Christians cannot be divided over? Who gave you this authority and where is it found in scripture?

Christians today are divided over much more than just grape juice and why? Because their holy books are written by mere men.
If the religion was founded by a true god on sound principles, it wouldn't be so divided because this "god" would've made himself readily available to clearly explain what each doctrine or verse means. That's not the case today and never has been since the writing of the bible.

 

[dacontinent]

Do the shameful numbers reflect the religion of Christianity and do the large numbers of differing doctrines reflect a lack of clarity in bible?
It amazes me that so many thousands of groups have differing opinions on such simple matters.

No. It does not appear that you have a good grasp on how those opinions differ or not.

If you're the source of your own numbers, then I can't count them as being valid. It's as if you just chose numbers out of the sky and posted them. You can do better than that.

It's not the validity of the numbers used here that serves the point. It is simple mathematics.
Take

• The number of nations that have been evangelized by Christians;
• the number of geographical regions recognized in those nations;
• the number of languages spoken in that nation;
• the number of recognized groups of a foreign country that occupy settlements in each of those countries
• the number of countries that restrict church organizations to being founded within their boundaries;
• the number of cities that restrict church organizations to being founded withing their boundaries;
• the number of number of declared harvest seasons for any given crop grown around the world;

Multiply those numbers together and divide them by the factorial of the number of differing doctrinal canons, and you will get a number WAY bigger than 33,000.

Even if there is, 31,000 is a huge number. Let's cut the number in half. That would still leave more than 15,000 differing denominations, when there should only be one....IF the same spirit is leading each group.
The 31,000 number is more like what it would be if the religion was man-made. Hint, hint.

How did you reach the conclusion that there should only be one denomination? If you find out the number of different doctrinal canons there are out there, you can cut that number by way more than half.

So if it was written for the Corinthians, why are you reading it?
...
How can you say it was written for the Corinthians, then in the next sentence say it could be applicable to any church?

I can say that because of what is in the text.

Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.​

So there were no divisions in the other churches?

Sure. :read:

Obviously this is not true today in the Christian religion. If the Paul character is real and if he was resurrected today, he probably wouldn't even recogniz the Christian religion he helped start because there's so much confusion and division.

The instructions have not changed. You are probably pretty close on Paul's assessment if he were living today.

Whose fault is that?

It is the fault of people today. God and the Bible have not changed.

So you want to cherry-pick which doctrines Christians cannot be divided over? Who gave you this authority and where is it found in scripture?

Absolutely. Jesus did.

Christians today are divided over much more than just grape juice and why? Because their holy books are written by mere men.
If the religion was founded by a true god on sound principles, it wouldn't be so divided because this "god" would've made himself readily available to clearly explain what each doctrine or verse means. That's not the case today and never has been since the writing of the bible.

One Holy Book. There are a lot of commentaries, journals, theses, ... all kinds of books. There is still one Holy Bible.

People are divided on all kinds of things. The vast majority of them are mere preferences. That doesn't make them doctrines. Furthermore, that does not constitute a canon of doctrines, which is really the basis for a denomination.

Do you not know that there are many denominations in the world that were established simply based on when they harvest their crops? Why? Because that is when their assets are most liquid and they can come together to make contributions toward their ministry targets. The separation into denomination has nothing to do with doctrine at all. It is simply a matter of convenience.

Yes, people are divided into groups over all sorts of stupid and wicked stuff, too. Just please do not try to paint everything with such a broad brush that you simply create a muck of colors. To do so would put one in categories right beside those stupid and wicked folks.

 

[JayRob]

No. It does not appear that you have a good grasp on how those opinions differ or not.

So the many divisions "don't " reflect the confusion in the religion? How can you say this with a straight face?
Even if I had cut the numbers by two-thirds, there'd still be 11,000 differing doctrines.
Seems that it's you who don't have a grasp of how divided Christians are when it comes to the bible.

It's not the validity of the numbers used here that serves the point. It is simple mathematics.
Take

• The number of nations that have been evangelized by Christians;
• the number of geographical regions recognized in those nations;
• the number of languages spoken in that nation;
• the number of recognized groups of a foreign country that occupy settlements in each of those countries
• the number of countries that restrict church organizations to being founded within their boundaries;
• the number of cities that restrict church organizations to being founded withing their boundaries;
• the number of number of declared harvest seasons for any given crop grown around the world;
• Multiply those numbers together and divide them by the factorial of the number of differing doctrinal canons, and you will get a number WAY bigger than 33,000.

• 
  
  Most of these differing denominations are located in one nation, the U.S. thus rendering most of your rebuttal null and void.
  
  

  How did you reach the conclusion that there should only be one denomination? If you find out the number of different doctrinal canons there are out there, you can cut that number by way more than half.

  
  That's still too many. The bible is one book, yet folks who supposed to believe in the same god can't agree on the rules and laws he put forth?
  This does nothing less than prove once again that the book is man-made. Why? Because no true all-knowing and omnipotent presence would keep those who really wanted to know from knowing.
  When it comes to the Christian religion, that's clearly not the case.
  
  

  I can say that because of what is in the text.
  [Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

  
  Seems to me that you're confused. First you claimed that it was written to the Corinthians, then when questioned, you changed and said it's written for Christians in general.
  If it was written for and TO the Corinthians, it's clearly limited to the Corinthians and no one else.
  It was a letter to the Corinthians, A LETTER, nothing more, nothing less.
  
  Note: In all actuality, none of Paul's writings were meant to be scripture in the first place. The Nicean Council made it scripture.
  
  

  The instructions have not changed. You are probably pretty close on Paul's assessment if he were living today.

  
  If Paul were alive, he'd only refer to the Old Testament as scripture, not the New Testament.
  
  

  It is the fault of people today. God and the Bible have not changed.

  
  It was PRIMARILY the fault of the Nicean Council in 325 AD.
  
  

  Absolutely. Jesus did.

  
  Where did this Jesus figure give you the authority to cherry-pick which doctrines to follow and which ones not to follow? You provided no scriptures which leads me to believe that you gave yourself authority to do what you're doing.
  
  

  One Holy Book. There are a lot of commentaries, journals, theses, ... all kinds of books. There is still one Holy Bible.

  
  There was no New Testament in the bible at the time of the death of the apostles. Who made the New Testament into scripture and when? More importantly, what entity gave them this authority?
  
  

  People are divided on all kinds of things. The vast majority of them are mere preferences. That doesn't make them doctrines. Furthermore, that does not constitute a canon of doctrines, which is really the basis for a denomination.

  
  Whose to say that these preferences aren't required to make it into heaven? People are picking and choosing which laws and statutes to follow or not follow, but no one knows for sure which ones are valid and which aren't. This is what leads to massive confusion.
  
  

  Do you not know that there are many denominations in the world that were established simply based on when they harvest their crops? Why? Because that is when their assets are most liquid and they can come together to make contributions toward their ministry targets. The separation into denomination has nothing to do with doctrine at all. It is simply a matter of convenience.

  
  Denominations have "nothing" to do with doctrines? So the Methodists and Baptists are both the same, except they have different names? Both are different merely due to matters of convenience?
  The facts say otherwise.
  I could name a number of different doctrines in these two denominations alone.
  
  

  Yes, people are divided into groups over all sorts of stupid and wicked stuff, too. Just please do not try to paint everything with such a broad brush that you simply create a muck of colors. To do so would put one in categories right beside those stupid and wicked folks.

  
  You just did what you asked me not to do when you claimed that denominations have nothing to do with doctrines.
  People are divided over the bible and should be. Why? Because if something is man-made, one would epect there to be such division.

 

[dacontinent]

So the many divisions "don't " reflect the confusion in the religion? How can you say this with a straight face?
Even if I had cut the numbers by two-thirds, there'd still be 11,000 differing doctrines.
Seems that it's you who don't have a grasp of how divided Christians are when it comes to the bible.

You continue to confuse doctrines with canons.

Most of these differing denominations are located in one nation, the U.S. thus rendering most of your rebuttal null and void.

1,200 denominations in the US. Nowhere near half. You apparently took the numbers from Barrett without bothering to research how he came up with them.

That's still too many. The bible is one book, yet folks who supposed to believe in the same god can't agree on the rules and laws he put forth?
This does nothing less than prove once again that the book is man-made. Why? Because no true all-knowing and omnipotent presence would keep those who really wanted to know from knowing.
When it comes to the Christian religion, that's clearly not the case.

All is proves is that men can interpret things in multiple ways. If you have ever tried to teach a number of people, you know that there are some people who will misunderstand or misinterpret what is taught regardless to how simple it is presented.

Seems to me that you're confused. First you claimed that it was written to the Corinthians, then when questioned, you changed and said it's written for Christians in general.
If it was written for and TO the Corinthians, it's clearly limited to the Corinthians and no one else.
It was a letter to the Corinthians, A LETTER, nothing more, nothing less.

Note: In all actuality, none of Paul's writings were meant to be scripture in the first place. The Nicean Council made it scripture.

No claim necessary. The text is clear. It's applicability caused the letter to shared among the various churches in Asia Minor.

If Paul were alive, he'd only refer to the Old Testament as scripture, not the New Testament.

Pure conjecture on your part.

Where did this Jesus figure give you the authority to cherry-pick which doctrines to follow and which ones not to follow? You provided no scriptures which leads me to believe that you gave yourself authority to do what you're doing.

I will let you provide them. Just find that passages where Jesus rebukes the Pharisee and/or Saducees for adding all kinds of doctrines that God did not order.

There was no New Testament in the bible at the time of the death of the apostles. Who made the New Testament into scripture and when? More importantly, what entity gave them this authority?

Jesus.

Whose to say that these preferences aren't required to make it into heaven? People are picking and choosing which laws and statutes to follow or not follow, but no one knows for sure which ones are valid and which aren't. This is what leads to massive confusion.

They requirements are already written in the text. Just read the text.

Denominations have "nothing" to do with doctrines? So the Methodists and Baptists are both the same, except they have different names? Both are different merely due to matters of convenience?
The facts say otherwise.
I could name a number of different doctrines in these two denominations alone.

One more time. Denomenations have to do with canons.

You just did what you asked me not to do when you claimed that denominations have nothing to do with doctrines.
People are divided over the bible and should be. Why? Because if something is man-made, one would epect there to be such division.

Space, time, history - none made by man - have people divided. It seems to me that one would expect there would be unity over man-made things since their origins, purpose, and development are easily tracked. The things that they would be divided over are those outside of the realm of man's control.

 

[JayRob]

You continue to confuse doctrines with canons.

What difference does it make? You still continue to ignore the elephant in the room which is the massive division within the Christian religion amongst Christians.

All is proves is that men can interpret things in multiple ways. If you have ever tried to teach a number of people, you know that there are some people who will misunderstand or misinterpret what is taught regardless to how simple it is presented.

Yeah, men who claim to be lead by one and the same spirit. More proof that it's man-made and that men aren't being lead by a single spirit.

No claim necessary. The text is clear. It's applicability caused the letter to shared among the various churches in Asia Minor.

It must not have been because first you claimed the textt was written for the Corinthians, then you changed and said it was written for everyone.
The Nicean Council caused this letter to be applicable to others, not Paul.
This is basic knowledge....at least for some of us.

I repeat, in all actuality, none of Paul's writings were meant to be called scriptures in the first place. The Nicean Council made it scripture.
Paul's writings were mere letters, nothing more, nothing less.

Pure conjecture on your part.

How is it pure conjecture? There was no New Testament until 325 AD, hundreds of years after the death of the Paul figure. He knew nothing about any New Testament.

I will let you provide them. Just find that passages where Jesus rebukes the Pharisee and/or Saducees for adding all kinds of doctrines that God did not order.

No, you made the claim that authority was given to you, so I'm holding your feet to the fire to show HOW you were given such authority.

Jesus.

So Jesus gave the Nicean Council the authority to make the New Testament official? Please tell me how he did this.

They requirements are already written in the text. Just read the text.

Many requirements are mentioned, but how do people like yourself know beyond any shadow of a doubt that you're following all the necessary requirements to prevent you from going to any hell fire for all eternity? That's it, you don't, you just THINK you do.

One more time. Denomenations have to do with canons.

And canons have to do with dB]differing[/B] laws and statutes between groups within the SAME religion. That's called division.

Space, time, history - none made by man - have people divided. It seems to me that one would expect there would be unity over man-made things since their origins, purpose, and development are easily tracked. The things that they would be divided over are those outside of the realm of man's control.

Man-made religions have people divided more than anything. In Christianity, folks have no idea if they're properly following all the necessary requirements in the bible in order to please their god.
They're only guessing and hoping that they are. And why are you all concerned? Seems to me many do it out of stark fear of not wanting to go to some everlasting hell fire that's said to burn and burn forever.

 

[dacontinent]

What difference does it make? You still continue to ignore the elephant in the room which is the massive division within the Christian religion amongst Christians.
...
And canons have to do with dB]differing[/B] laws and statutes between groups within the SAME religion. That's called division.

First you as the question and later you give part of the answer of the difference. Another part of the difference is denominations that have canons comprised of identical doctrines.

Yeah, men who claim to be lead by one and the same spirit. More proof that it's man-made and that men aren't being lead by a single spirit.

Even godly men are led by at least two spirits: God's and his own.

It must not have been because first you claimed the textt was written for the Corinthians, then you changed and said it was written for everyone.
The Nicean Council caused this letter to be applicable to others, not Paul.
This is basic knowledge....at least for some of us.

I repeat, in all actuality, none of Paul's writings were meant to be called scriptures in the first place. The Nicean Council made it scripture.
Paul's writings were mere letters, nothing more, nothing less.

I didn't change anything.

As far as Paul's writings being meant to be called Scriptures ... since you are neither God (who would have the last say) nor a believer, your OPINION has no credibility at all. Paul's writings were indeed letters.

How is it pure conjecture? There was no New Testament until 325 AD, hundreds of years after the death of the Paul figure. He knew nothing about any New Testament.

It is conjecture because for Paul to have such an opinion, he would have had to live to at least 325 AD and offer his own perspective. Neither of those conditions occurred.

No, you made the claim that authority was given to you, so I'm holding your feet to the fire to show HOW you were given such authority.

My feet are ice cold. Now, go back and read the posts so you can tell what claim I made.

So Jesus gave the Nicean Council the authority to make the New Testament official? Please tell me how he did this.

You're getting warmer.

Many requirements are mentioned, but how do people like yourself know beyond any shadow of a doubt that you're following all the necessary requirements to prevent you from going to any hell fire for all eternity? That's it, you don't, you just THINK you do.

We know beyond a shadow of a doubt by the fundamental principle of the Scripture: personal intimacy with God. You don't have that so you can't know it.

Man-made religions have people divided more than anything. In Christianity, folks have no idea if they're properly following all the necessary requirements in the bible in order to please their god.
They're only guessing and hoping that they are. And why are you all concerned? Seems to me many do it out of stark fear of not wanting to go to some everlasting hell fire that's said to burn and burn forever.

Those who don't know fail to do so because they have not continued to grown in intimacy with God. They are not much better off than you.

 

[JayRob]

First you as the question and later you give part of the answer of the difference. Another part of the difference is denominations that have canons comprised of identical doctrines.

Keep fillibustering. When are you going to explain why so many Christians are divided over the same book?

Even godly men are led by at least two spirits: God's and his own.

With so much division in one religion, it seems Christians are being lead by multiple spirits, more like thousand of differing spirits OF MEN, but I forgot, you don't want to talk about that.

As far as Paul's writings being meant to be called Scriptures ... since you are neither God (who would have the last say) nor a believer, your OPINION has no credibility at all. Paul's writings were indeed letters.

I don't claim to be anyone's god, but I know the history of Christianity and that the New Testament was not formed until hundreds of years after the apostles were dead.

Now you're hinting that the biblical god inspired the Nicean Council to form the New Testament out of letters written to other churches? LOL.

It is conjecture because for Paul to have such an opinion, he would have had to live to at least 325 AD and offer his own perspective. Neither of those conditions occurred.

Are you claiming that there was a New Testament before 325 AD?

My feet are ice cold. Now, go back and read the posts so you can tell what claim I made.

You claimed that the Jesus figure gave you authority. Now I'm asking you to show evidence of the biblical god giving authority to the Nicean Council to make the New Testament official.

You love to divert answering questions you know the answer to, but you avoid doing so at all costs in order to not embarass yourself or the bible.

You're getting warmer.

More diversion. Who gave the Nicean Council authority to form the New Testament?

We know beyond a shadow of a doubt by the fundamental principle of the Scripture: personal intimacy with God. You don't have that so you can't know it.

What fundamental principle of the scripture? Christians have thousands of differing beliefs, so which of you are correct?
That's it, you don't know beyond any shadow of a doubt.
You just fabricated what you don't know and can't know. You just THINK you know.

Those who don't know fail to do so because they have not continued to grown in intimacy with God. They are not much better off than you.

Dacon please. Pawn that nonsense off to someone who doesn't know the facts.

You don't know anymore than the next person whether or not you have intimacy with anyone. You may have intimacy with your own thoughts but there's no way you know if you have intimacy with any god. You're just hoping that you do as are most.
If Christians had the same intimacy with the same god you have, you all would have the same exact beliefs but you don't. That's according to your bible. You can try and get around this all you want, but you can't because the religion is man-made.

 

[dacontinent]

Keep fillibustering. When are you going to explain why so many Christians are divided over the same book?

I did that in my first post in this thread.

With so much division in one religion, it seems Christians are being lead by multiple spirits, more like thousand of differing spirits OF MEN, but I forgot, you don't want to talk about that.

I have talked about it plenty. Each congregation has a mission and vision provided through its leadership. It is not that difficult to understand when you are a part of what is going on. When you are on the outside looking in, you will always have questions.

Now you're hinting that the biblical god inspired the Nicean Council to form the New Testament out of letters written to other churches? LOL.

I have not hinted at all.

Are you claiming that there was a New Testament before 325 AD?

Sure. Jesus died about AD 33. He IS the New Testament. The books assembled are writings about life in the New Testament.

You claimed that the Jesus figure gave you authority. Now I'm asking you to show evidence of the biblical god giving authority to the Nicean Council to make the New Testament official.

You love to divert answering questions you know the answer to, but you avoid doing so at all costs in order to not embarass yourself or the bible.

I don't think you will find that I posted that.

More diversion. Who gave the Nicean Council authority to form the New Testament?

Already answered.

What fundamental principle of the scripture? Christians have thousands of differing beliefs, so which of you are correct?
That's it, you don't know beyond any shadow of a doubt.
You just fabricated what you don't know and can't know. You just THINK you know.

Stated in my previous post. Read it.

Dacon please. Pawn that nonsense off to someone who doesn't know the facts.

You don't know anymore than the next person whether or not you have intimacy with anyone. You may have intimacy with your own thoughts but there's no way you know if you have intimacy with any god. You're just hoping that you do as are most.
If Christians had the same intimacy with the same god you have, you all would have the same exact beliefs but you don't. That's according to your bible. You can try and get around this all you want, but you can't because the religion is man-made.

Please feel free to post what facts you have from intimacy with God.

By the way it appears that you do not understand intimacy. Since intimacy is different between any two persons, would you expect that two persons who shared intimacy with the third party should have the same perception of that third party? I would not. Those two persons are likely to have completely different needs ... for starters.

 

[JayRob]

I did that in my first post in this thread.

I applaud your effort but looking at the numbers, the churches are still divided over major subjects in the bible. A house divided cannot stand.

I have talked about it plenty. Each congregation has a mission and vision provided through its leadership. It is not that difficult to understand when you are a part of what is going on. When you are on the outside looking in, you will always have questions.

This has nothing to do with being on the outside or inside. I've experienced both and know firsthand how divisive religious folks are.
Church missions are quite different as well. They use the name of the Jesus figure, but when one gets down to the nuts and bolts of their doctrines, there's a vast divide amongst the flock.

I have not hinted at all.

If you didn't seem to hint that the biblical Jesus gave authority to the Nicean council to form the new testament, then what entity gave them this authority? Forgive me for missing your initial answer. Please repeat it.

Second, what verses do you base this on?

Sure. Jesus died about AD 33. He IS the New Testament. The books assembled are writings about life in the New Testament.

When did the Jesus figure authorize that letters from Paul and others be turned into scripture comparable to that of the Old Testament?

I don't think you will find that I posted that.

Where in the bible did the Jesus figure make the four letters (gospels) part of scriputre? Where in the bible did he make the book of Acts and letters of Peter and Paul part of scripture? That's it, he didn't. These books, along with Revelation, were forced into being a part of the Old Testament long after the Jesus character and apostles had died.
The average Christian doesn't know this.

Already answered.

I missed your answer. Please repeat it.

Stated in my previous post. Read it.

In other words, of the thousands of differing Chrstian beliefs and doctrines, you have no idea whose right or wrong. Heck, you don't even know if you're right or wrong. You're just "hoping" you are.

Please feel free to post what facts you have from intimacy with God.

If this god was "real" I'd be glad to, but since he's not, I can't.

By the way it appears that you do not understand intimacy. Since intimacy is different between any two persons, would you expect that two persons who shared intimacy with the third party should have the same perception of that third party? I would not. Those two persons are likely to have completely different needs ... for starters.

Try and dress it up any way you please, but my take on this is that if you're reading the same book that I'm reading and being lead by the same spirit that I'm being lead by, there's no way that there would be thousands of differing opinions as to what this spirit leading US would be saying.
For you to claim otherwise is totally illogical and almost an excuse as to why churches are so divided when it comes to the bible.

Again, this shows and proves that the bible is man-maded and that folks are not being lead by ONE spirit.

 

[dacontinent]

If you didn't seem to hint that the biblical Jesus gave authority to the Nicean council to form the new testament, then what entity gave them this authority? Forgive me for missing your initial answer. Please repeat it.

Second, what verses do you base this on?

I already identified the scriptures that you need to research. Apparently you have not done that yet.

When did the Jesus figure authorize that letters from Paul and others be turned into scripture comparable to that of the Old Testament?

You will find them scattered throughout the gospels ... look for places where he told them to remember stuff that he taught.

Where in the bible did the Jesus figure make the four letters (gospels) part of scriputre? Where in the bible did he make the book of Acts and letters of Peter and Paul part of scripture? That's it, he didn't. These books, along with Revelation, were forced into being a part of the Old Testament long after the Jesus character and apostles had died.
The average Christian doesn't know this.

Since the gospels were not written until some 30 years after his death, it would not be likely for you to find such a depiction from Jesus in the Bible. Yes, even the average Christian knows this.

I missed your answer. Please repeat it.

Jesus.

In other words, of the thousands of differing Chrstian beliefs and doctrines, you have no idea whose right or wrong. Heck, you don't even know if you're right or wrong. You're just "hoping" you are.

Sure we know: Jesus is right and JayRob is wrong. All the stuff that is preference that humans have tried to make into law is just hogwash.

If this god was "real" I'd be glad to, but since he's not, I can't.

That position contradicts this one...

This has nothing to do with being on the outside or inside. I've experienced both and know firsthand how divisive religious folks are.

Try and dress it up any way you please, but my take on this is that if you're reading the same book that I'm reading and being lead by the same spirit that I'm being lead by, there's no way that there would be thousands of differing opinions as to what this spirit leading US would be saying.
For you to claim otherwise is totally illogical and almost an excuse as to why churches are so divided when it comes to the bible.

Again, this shows and proves that the bible is man-maded and that folks are not being lead by ONE spirit.

You have confused churches with the Church. Just take the 7 churches of Asia Minor as written in Revelation. There was seven different issues spoken to by the same Spirit of God. Each was given a direction that it needed to go that was different from each of the other churches. However, the objective was to make each of those churches into what Christ wants represented in the earth: His headship.

 

[JayRob]

I already identified the scriptures that you need to research. Apparently you have not done that yet.

You can't provide them and that's understandable. You can claim that you have, but you haven't. That's okay though.

You will find them scattered throughout the gospels ... look for places where he told them to remember stuff that he taught.

There's not one legitimate verse in the gospels that authorized such words become scripture.
When the Jesus figure quoted scripture, he always quoted from the Old Testament.
Not one time did he quote from the New Testament.

Since the gospels were not written until some 30 years after his death, it would not be likely for you to find such a depiction from Jesus in the Bible. Yes, even the average Christian knows this.

So if the Jesus figure had died 30 years earlier, who authorized that mere letters become scripture, comparable to that of the Old Testament? Nobody that's who.

Jesus.

How do you know the Jesus character inspired this Nicean council? If he did, then he would've had to inspire them to observe pagan holidays and rituals as well because that's what was authorized by this council.

Sure we know: Jesus is right and JayRob is wrong. All the stuff that is preference that humans have tried to make into law is just hogwash.

No need to try and compare me to your New Testament god. Please tell me how you know that of the 31,000 differing denominations, how do you know that your denomination is right while the others aren't?

You have confused churches with the Church. Just take the 7 churches of Asia Minor as written in Revelation. There was seven different issues spoken to by the same Spirit of God. Each was given a direction that it needed to go that was different from each of the other churches. However, the objective was to make each of those churches into what Christ wants represented in the earth: His headship.

Seven is much better than 31,000. Hahahaha. How can you get one unified body out of 31,000 differing denominations?
Even with the seven differing churches in Revelation, only one remained faithful, while the other six died off. Six thought they were fine, but they weren't. That's my point in asking if you knew if your denominations teachings were accurate. If not, perhaps your denomination will soon die off

These churches represented seven differing eras, meaning that they weren't in existence at the same time.
The 31,000 differing denominations exist at the same time. Your comparison of the seven eras and 31,000 denominations does not match.

 

[dacontinent]

There's not one legitimate verse in the gospels that authorized such words become scripture.
When the Jesus figure quoted scripture, he always quoted from the Old Testament.
Not one time did he quote from the New Testament.

Jesus is the quote of the New Testament.

How do you know the Jesus character inspired this Nicean council? If he did, then he would've had to inspire them to observe pagan holidays and rituals as well because that's what was authorized by this council.

Jesus inspires every believer to do something for the Kingdom of God. Don't get it twisted. The members of the Nicean Council were no more perfect than the eleven disciples hand-picked by Jesus, but they were not stumpknockers either.

No need to try and compare me to your New Testament god. Please tell me how you know that of the 31,000 differing denominations, how do you know that your denomination is right while the others aren't?

Compare you with God???!!! Sacrilege.

I don't think that you will find me of the "we're right and everyone else is wrong" brand of believers.

Seven is much better than 31,000. Hahahaha. How can you get one unified body out of 31,000 differing denominations?
Even with the seven differing churches in Revelation, only one remained faithful, while the other six died off. Six thought they were fine, but they weren't. That's my point in asking if you knew if your denominations teachings were accurate. If not, perhaps your denomination will soon die off

These churches represented seven differing eras, meaning that they weren't in existence at the same time.
The 31,000 differing denominations exist at the same time. Your comparison of the seven eras and 31,000 denominations does not match.

The point is that 7 is no different than 38,000 (the latest number that nut came up with). The 7 churches of Asia Minor are still in existence. In fact, we help to support missions there. Yes, there continues to be much oppression, but they are far from dead.

Answer to your question: You get one unified body as long as all of the parts are connected to the one Head, Jesus Christ.

 

[JayRob]

Jesus is the quote of the New Testament.

Jesus was a character in the New Testament, he wasn't a quote. If he was a quote, then how could he and the Saducees be one and the same? How could he be King Agrippa when Agrippa made quotes in the New Testament?

Jesus inspires every believer to do something for the Kingdom of God. Don't get it twisted. The members of the Nicean Council were no more perfect than the eleven disciples hand-picked by Jesus, but they were not stumpknockers either.

Come on Dacon, the Council of Nicea was called by the Roman Emperor Constantine. He realized that he needed to unite the many different relgious factions within his kingdom, so he called a meeting of the religious leaders throughout the Roman Empire.
As a shrewd politician, he realized that if he could unite the differing religions under ONE banner, his power throughout the kingdom would be solidified.
This had nothing to do with being inspired. This had to do with him solidifying POWER and CONTROL over the populace within the boundaries of the Roman Empire.
By consolodating pagan religions with Christian teachings, he brought the people together.
This has nothing to do with anyone being inspired? Why would the Jesus figure inspire religious leaders to combine and mix pagan doctrines with his "holy" teachings?

I don't think that you will find me of the "we're right and everyone else is wrong" brand of believers.

So you admit that you don't know if your doctrines are right or wrong?

The point is that 7 is no different than 38,000 (the latest number that nut came up with). The 7 churches of Asia Minor are still in existence. In fact, we help to support missions there. Yes, there continues to be much oppression, but they are far from dead.

How is that the point? The bible claims that five of the seven eras wouldn't be in existence at his second coming due to false doctrinal teachings and sin.
On the other hand, if division of doctrine is the point you're referring to, then you'd have a point. No one knows where this one true church is. Do you?

Answer to your question: You get one unified body as long as all of the parts are connected to the one Head, Jesus Christ.

In theory, that sounds well and dandy. Since no one knows beyond a shadow of a doubt what Jesus' supposed teachings are, the parts will never be connected or unified. Until he comes down IN PERSON AGAIN and tells every man, woman and child what his teachings are, there will never be any unity in the supposed church. I
n the meantime, folks will have to continue guessing if their teachings are right or even worth following at all.

 

[dacontinent]

Jesus was a character in the New Testament, he wasn't a quote. If he was a quote, then how could he and the Saducees be one and the same? How could he be King Agrippa when Agrippa made quotes in the New Testament?

Do you not understand that there is no testatment without the death of the testator? Without Jesus there IS no New Testament. Come on, mayne.

Come on Dacon, the Council of Nicea was called by the Roman Emperor Constantine. He realized that he needed to unite the many different relgious factions within his kingdom, so he called a meeting of the religious leaders throughout the Roman Empire.
As a shrewd politician, he realized that if he could unite the differing religions under ONE banner, his power throughout the kingdom would be solidified.
This had nothing to do with being inspired. This had to do with him solidifying POWER and CONTROL over the populace within the boundaries of the Roman Empire.
By consolodating pagan religions with Christian teachings, he brought the people together.
This has nothing to do with anyone being inspired? Why would the Jesus figure inspire religious leaders to combine and mix pagan doctrines with his "holy" teachings?

What does any of that have to do with whether the members of the Council of Nicea were inspired by God?

So you admit that you don't know if your doctrines are right or wrong?

Certainly I know that they are right.

How is that the point? The bible claims that five of the seven eras wouldn't be in existence at his second coming due to false doctrinal teachings and sin.
On the other hand, if division of doctrine is the point you're referring to, then you'd have a point. No one knows where this one true church is. Do you?

You seem to be having some trouble either with your facts or your grammar. First you say 6 of the 7 churches died off; then you say that 5 will not exist at His second coming. Make up your mind what you want to say.

The one true Church is where it has always been: in Christ.

In theory, that sounds well and dandy. Since no one knows beyond a shadow of a doubt what Jesus' supposed teachings are, the parts will never be connected or unified. Until he comes down IN PERSON AGAIN and tells every man, woman and child what his teachings are, there will never be any unity in the supposed church. In the meantime, folks will have to continue guessing if their teachings are right or even worth following at all.

You do understand that when He comes in person again (does this mean that you changed your mind on His first advent???), it will not be to teach or explain His teachings ... don't you? That is a job that He left to believers like me.

 

[JayRob]

Do you not understand that there is no testatment without the death of the testator? Without Jesus there IS no New Testament. Come on, mayne.

If this "theory" is true about a testator having to die, then who died and made the Old Testament legal? Who was it's testator?

What does any of that have to do with whether the members of the Council of Nicea were inspired by God?

It has everything to do with it that's why you're avoiding answering the question. Why would the Jesus figure inspire pagan religious leaders to mix in their pagan doctrines with his "holy" doctrines under a pagan king?
If he did, he'd be dividing his own house and you know what he supposedly said about a house divided.

Certainly I know that they are right.

You KNOW that they are right? LOL!
YOU can tell me that your doctrines are right until you're blue in the face, but that proves nothing. The question is HOW do you know that your doctrines are accurate while the others aren't? That's it, you don't. You just think you do.

You seem to be having some trouble either with your facts or your grammar. First you say 6 of the 7 churches died off; then you say that 5 will not exist at His second coming. Make up your mind what you want to say.

Six will have died off, one would remain faithful. Now that we've cleared that up, BACK to the question you're trying to avoid. Fact of the matter is that none of the congregations in those eras were ever in sync. They all had differing doctrines except one. Even in the fictional stories of Revelation, there's no solidarity. just like there's no solidarity amongst the 31,000 denominations.

The one true Church is where it has always been: in Christ.

How is this supposed true church IN Christ when they don't even know for sure if their doctrines are accurate? Everyone's guessing and hoping that they are right. That's it in a nutshell.

You do understand that when He comes in person again (does this mean that you changed your mind on His first advent???), it will not be to teach or explain His teachings ... don't you? That is a job that He left to believers like me.

No. There's still no concrete evidence that there ever was a Jesus figure as described in the New Testament. That hasn't changed.
The Romans simply fashioned the Jesus character after some of their gods at the request of Constantine in order to win over those from other religions. I think you already know this but are reluctant to admit it.
This is one of the main reasons as to why I know the religion is a man-made religion. It closely resembles that of other religions that came before it. It's very easy to verify.

In the Christian religion, no one knows if their doctrines are accurate. Folks and congregations are only guessing and hoping that what they actually believe will come to pass. They have no evidence to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that what they believe as being scripture is meant to be scripture in the first place.
So-called pagans claim that their gods will return one day as well. They're in the same boat as you are.