What Happened To Sandra Bland?

[pvdogteam]

The cop seemed to get pissed that she didn't bow down to his commands and couldn't handle her being upset about the stop. Yes, Bland could have been more pleasant, but is that a requirement? I think DWB it is necessary because culturally they don't get us and it makes it easy for things to get out of hand. Had she been a white woman, her being upset wouldn't have bothered the officer but a sista being mad is a whole different feeling to them. The colorful language wasn't necessary but him throwing her to the ground wasn't necessary either. I still didn't see what she did that warranted 3 days in jail and a $5,000 bond, damn that was right in front of the yard, this is crazy

 

[Fiyah]

I would like to know if the City of Prairie View have dashcams? If so I would like to see that one also since they may have been parked in a way to see what we don't see on the troopers video.

I would also like to see a side by side view of the troopers video and the video of the person that had their personal video of the incident. If you've seen both of them you can tell when they started recording and match the two together.

That (he) has nothing to do with this as the City of Waller is 5 mile east of Prairie View and 10 miles east of Hempstead which is where the Waller County jail is located.

 

[Fiyah]

I have commented on other matters in this forum pertaining to police, so I will do the same for this incident.

Honestly, that's all I can really analyze about the video, because the rest takes place out of camera view........

I left some space for REASONABLE questions and replies, which I will do my best to answer as impartially as I can, based on personal experience and Texas law.

‘Selma’ director Ava DuVernay says dashcam video of Sandra Bland arrest was doctored

Ava DuVernay, who directed the Oscar-nominated civil rights movement film Selma, suggested on Tuesday that the dashboard camera footage of Sandra Bland’s arrest earlier this month was altered.

“I edit footage for a living. But anyone can see that this official video has been cut,” DuVernay posted on Twitter, while linking to an article by journalist Ben Norton listing what appears to be discrepancies in the footage released earlier in the day by the Texas Department of Public Safety. DuVernay’s statement can be seen below:

“Someone clearly cut footage out and looped part of the video in order to correspond with the recorded audio of Texas state trooper Brian Encinia speaking,” Norton wrote. “Who exactly edited the footage is unknown, but the video was recorded by police and released by the Texas Department of Public Safety.”

For example, Norton stated, a man seen in the center of the frame at the 25:05 mark walks toward the right of the frame and off-camera, only to disappear, reappear and disappear again within a three-second period. The footage of him walking toward the right is then seen again.

Norton also said that there are several instances showing looped footage involving vehicles moving at the scene of Bland’s arrest.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/07/sel...am-video-of-sandra-bland-arrest-was-doctored/

 

[s phi s]

I noticed that a few times in the video, and DPS will have to be able to explain it. Or if the FBI certifies it as authentic and untampered with, they will have to explain why the video skips like that.

 

[s phi s]

I would like to know if the City of Prairie View have dashcams? If so I would like to see that one also since they may have been parked in a way to see what we don't see on the troopers video.

I would also like to see a side by side view of the troopers video and the video of the person that had their personal video of the incident. If you've seen both of them you can tell when they started recording and match the two together.



That (he) has nothing to do with this as the City of Waller is 5 mile east of Prairie View and 10 miles east of Hempstead which is where the Waller County jail is located.

I mentioned in my earlier post that the DA says that he "believed he was told" that the City of PV officer's memory was full on the video system, and didn't record. Also, after watching this video, I dunno how much it would help, because the action in question was occurring as she was driving up.

 

[Fiyah]

I mentioned in my earlier post that the DA says that he "believed he was told" that the City of PV officer's memory was full on the video system, and didn't record. Also, after watching this video, I dunno how much it would help, because the action in question was occurring as she was driving up.

That's right......I just think that it would have shown a angle of them and what was happening when they got there.

Now the conspiracy can go forward.....PV dash video just happens to be full, the edits in the DPS dashcam and then her death 3 days later.

 

[Lenard]

Man this is a horrible situation. State trooper running radar/making stops @ the campus entrance smh. I know that stretch is 30mph, if memory serves correct. Did the trooper leave the new 290 while chasing speeders? I would've thunk the city of PV would have radar equipped cars and patrol that area.

 

[97JSULEGEND]

Where did she get a plastic bag from?

 

[96lioness]

Where did she get a plastic bag from?

THANK YOU!!!!!

I've never been to jail/prison, never seen the inside of one, but I thought they didn't have trash cans in the cells. I also thought any and all items used to bring bodily harm were removed once a person was incarcerated.


#ignoringthepinkelephantintheroom!

 

[C-LeB28]

How ironic is it that someone else "committed suicide" in the same exact manner at that same jail. Lightning struck twice.

 

[96lioness]

I was reading this:

The video posted online Tuesday by the Texas Department of Public Safety shows the trooper, who is white, stopping Bland for failing to signal a lane change. After he hands her a written warning, the trooper remarks that Bland seems irritated. The Illinois woman replies that she is irritated because she had changed lanes to make way for the trooper's car.

In an affidavit released Tuesday, the trooper said that after handcuffing her for becoming combative, she swung her elbows at him and kicked him in his right shin.

Trooper Brian Encinia said he then used force "to subdue Bland to the ground," and she continued to fight back. He arrested her for assault on a public servant.

The trooper, who has been on the force for just over a year, has been placed on administrative leave for violating unspecified police procedures and the Department of Public Safety's courtesy policy. The agency would not address questions about whether the trooper acted appropriately by drawing his stun gun or pulling her out of the vehicle.

"Regardless of the situation — it doesn't matter where it happens — a DPS state trooper has got an obligation to exhibit professionalism and be courteous ... and that wasn't the case in this situation," said Steven McCraw, the department director.

...........................................

Sandra Bland had the appearance of a petite-sized woman; she looked tiny in the videos I've seen. It's seems unnecessary, as suggested by the refusal of the Department of Public Safety's comment on his actions, to force her to the ground, especially since she was already in handcuffs.


I like how the article goes on to state what this law enforcement expert said:


A law enforcement expert from Maryland said he was troubled by the video "from start to finish."

Vernon Herron, a senior policy analyst with the University of Maryland Center for Health and Homeland Security, said if the trooper intended to give her a warning, that's what he should have done, no matter what the woman said to him.

"A person's attitude or their demeanor is not probable cause to make an arrest," said Herron, who has more than 35 years of experience in public safety and law enforcement.


www.knoxnews.com/news/nation-and-world/dashcam-video-shows-confrontational...

 

[96lioness]

How ironic is it that someone else "committed suicide" in the same exact manner at that same jail. Lightning struck twice.

C-Leb, I think Sandra Bland makes it 3 times.

Exact same manner of death (suicide)......exact same jail............exact same charges (assault on law enforcement officer)




#coincidence?ithinknot!

 

[pvdogteam]

How ironic is it that someone else "committed suicide" in the same exact manner at that same jail. Lightning struck twice.

I read she is the 3rd person in a few years at that same jail who supposedly "hung" themselves. I think something bad is going on in that jail

 

[s phi s]

I was reading this:

The video posted online Tuesday by the Texas Department of Public Safety shows the trooper, who is white, stopping Bland for failing to signal a lane change. After he hands her a written warning, the trooper remarks that Bland seems irritated. The Illinois woman replies that she is irritated because she had changed lanes to make way for the trooper's car.

In an affidavit released Tuesday, the trooper said that after handcuffing her for becoming combative, she swung her elbows at him and kicked him in his right shin.

Trooper Brian Encinia said he then used force "to subdue Bland to the ground," and she continued to fight back. He arrested her for assault on a public servant.

The trooper, who has been on the force for just over a year, has been placed on administrative leave for violating unspecified police procedures and the Department of Public Safety's courtesy policy. The agency would not address questions about whether the trooper acted appropriately by drawing his stun gun or pulling her out of the vehicle.

"Regardless of the situation — it doesn't matter where it happens — a DPS state trooper has got an obligation to exhibit professionalism and be courteous ... and that wasn't the case in this situation," said Steven McCraw, the department director.

...........................................

Sandra Bland had the appearance of a petite-sized woman; she looked tiny in the videos I've seen. It's seems unnecessary, as suggested by the refusal of the Department of Public Safety's comment on his actions, to force her to the ground, especially since she was already in handcuffs.


I like how the article goes on to state what this law enforcement expert said:


A law enforcement expert from Maryland said he was troubled by the video "from start to finish."

Vernon Herron, a senior policy analyst with the University of Maryland Center for Health and Homeland Security, said if the trooper intended to give her a warning, that's what he should have done, no matter what the woman said to him.

"A person's attitude or their demeanor is not probable cause to make an arrest," said Herron, who has more than 35 years of experience in public safety and law enforcement.


www.knoxnews.com/news/nation-and-world/dashcam-video-shows-confrontational...

In principle, I agree with most of this. However, I will say that I have had a STRIKINGLY SIMILAR altercation with a handcuffed female of a similar stature. I was kicked, elbowed, kneed, and a few other things. There's this romantic notion that 1) females, because of their size, are incapable of putting up a fight and 2) that once the handcuffs are on, any person is incapable of putting up a fight. In my case, I was almost stabbed by that handcuffed woman. I ended up having to take the handcuffed woman to the ground and use my body weight to subdue her until more units could arrive to assist.

With that said, I will stop WELL short of asserting that this is what happened, because quite simply, it happened out of view of the camera (so did my incident).

Also, as a matter of fact, he never actually handed her the warning. It was on a clipboard that he had rested in the window and seemed like he was about to hand her when he switched direction into that are you ok spiel. Even with that, though, I do agree with the analyst in this situation that if he intended to give her a warning, he should have done that and ended the contact, because it was obviously adversarial.

 

[Lenard]

There are shenanigans in waller county and it's not all good ol' white boy upper-political related. There are some black henchmen/women in that area as well that are drunk w/ power. ::read::

Growing up in the adjoining county, my elder relatives warned me to stay clear of armed/badged leos from waller, walker, and montgomery counties due to shenanigans and past run-ins they either saw or experienced in those places.

 

[Lenard]

I do agree with the analyst in this situation that if he intended to give her a warning, he should have done that and ended the contact, because it was obviously adversarial.

I agree 1000%. It's all sorts of bad going on w/ that verbal altercation that quickly turned physical altercation. smh

 

[C-LeB28]

C-Leb, I think Sandra Bland makes it 3 times.

Exact same manner of death (suicide)......exact same jail............exact same charges (assault on law enforcement officer)

#coincidence?ithinknot!

Thanks for that correction. It is highly unlikely the size of that jail at the ratio in which a person would be detained would suicide be committed. I could see that in Harris County jail due to the shear number of people that are arrested daily but THREE suicides in THAT little county?

 

[96lioness]

In principle, I agree with most of this. However, I will say that I have had a STRIKINGLY SIMILAR altercation with a handcuffed female of a similar stature. I was kicked, elbowed, kneed, and a few other things. There's this romantic notion that 1) females, because of their size, are incapable of putting up a fight and 2) that once the handcuffs are on, any person is incapable of putting up a fight. In my case, I was almost stabbed by that handcuffed woman. I ended up having to take the handcuffed woman to the ground and use my body weight to subdue her until more units could arrive to assist.

With that said, I will stop WELL short of asserting that this is what happened, because quite simply, it happened out of view of the camera (so did my incident).

Also, as a matter of fact, he never actually handed her the warning. It was on a clipboard that he had rested in the window and seemed like he was about to hand her when he switched direction into that are you ok spiel. Even with that, though, I do agree with the analyst in this situation that if he intended to give her a warning, he should have done that and ended the contact, because it was obviously adversarial.

No "romantic notion" from me, s phi s. I admit that I don't have a whole lot of knowledge about the arrests-turned-violent-turned-fatal of women in this county or anywhere else; in this particular case, however, involving Sandra Bland, I just noted the appearance of her body size. My reference to her petite-looking appearance wasn't to indicate that she was incapable of putting up a fight; every person, handcuffed or not, in any situation is capable of putting up a fight. I spoke on her appearing to be a tiny, petite-looking woman in regards to the force the officer used (who looked to be considerably larger and heavier than her) to put her to the ground and hold her there (just like the officer in McKinney, Texas who did that to the little teenage girl).
And since you brought it up, it's always baffled me why police officers feel the need to put their weight on handcuffed people (cuffed from behind), who are already lying face-downward on the ground, to "subdue" them? I always thought that was considered a submissive, less aggressive, non-combative position, but apparently it's not, if you and other law enforcement officers feel the need to further "subdue" arrested individuals already submissive.

 

[s phi s]

No "romantic notion" from me, s phi s. I admit that I don't have a whole lot of knowledge about the arrests-turned-violent-turned-fatal of women in this county or anywhere else; in this particular case, however, involving Sandra Bland, I just noted the appearance of her body size. My reference to her petite-looking appearance wasn't to indicate that she was incapable of putting up a fight; every person, handcuffed or not, in any situation is capable of putting up a fight. I spoke on her appearing to be a tiny, petite-looking woman in regards to the force the officer used (who looked to be considerably larger and heavier than her) to put her to the ground and hold her there (just like the officer in McKinney, Texas who did that to the little teenage girl).
And since you brought it up, it's always baffled me why police officers feel the need to put their weight on handcuffed people (cuffed from behind), who are already lying face-downward on the ground, to "subdue" them? I always thought that was considered a submissive, less aggressive, non-combative position, but apparently it's not, if you and other law enforcement officers feel the need to further "subdue" arrested individuals already submissive.

1) The romantic notion comment wasn't directed at you specifically. It was a general statement based on something you had said. My apologies if you thought it was personally directed at you.

2) I can't speak for all encounters, as each one is different. Since the best place to speak from is personal experience, I will use my own situation. Although she was handcuffed behind her back, while standing, she both kicked and elbowed me, so we went to the ground. She kicked me a couple of more times while on the ground and continued to try to get back to a position that would be more to her advantage. I weigh 235 pounds and she weighed 150. Again, there is a notion that handcuffed and face down is an automatic indicator of being submissive and subdued. She was anything but. I get where you are going, and there is something to be said for that. The thing is, there is no absolute answer. EVERY situation and EVERY person is different, and requires the officer to evaluate everything individually and independently. THAT is where the disconnect is. There is no cookie cutter answer....it all lies in the officer's perception of events at the time they are happening.

When evaluating incidents, the "reasonableness" standard often applies. Are the officer's actions consistent with what a reasonable, similarly situated officer would do when presented with the same facts, knowledge, and circumstances.

 

[96lioness]

1) The romantic notion comment wasn't directed at you specifically. It was a general statement based on something you had said. My apologies if you thought it was personally directed at you.

2) I can't speak for all encounters, as each one is different. Since the best place to speak from is personal experience, I will use my own situation. Although she was handcuffed behind her back, while standing, she both kicked and elbowed me, so we went to the ground. She kicked me a couple of more times while on the ground and continued to try to get back to a position that would be more to her advantage. I weigh 235 pounds and she weighed 150. Again, there is a notion that handcuffed and face down is an automatic indicator of being submissive and subdued. She was anything but. I get where you are going, and there is something to be said for that. The thing is, there is no absolute answer. EVERY situation and EVERY person is different, and requires the officer to evaluate everything individually and independently. THAT is where the disconnect is. There is no cookie cutter answer....it all lies in the officer's perception of events at the time they are happening.

When evaluating incidents, the "reasonableness" standard often applies. Are the officer's actions consistent with what a reasonable, similarly situated officer would do when presented with the same facts, knowledge, and circumstances.

No apologies needed, but thank you; I'm good I figured since it was me that brought up Sandra Bland's body size and her being handcuffed, you were only responding to my post. No harm, no foul.

I don't know if anyone else has this same "notion" or not, but speaking only for myself, yes, I do have the belief (not notion) that when a person is handcuffed with their hands behind them while lying face down on the ground they are submissive and non-combative, and the need for further force/restraint is unnecessary, especially when (as you said) the officer can use his/her perception to clearly see when their body weight/size outnumbers/overpowers the arrested person. I don't know what "reasonableness" standard is, but I do know what common sense is and I do know that when a person is in a submissive, restrained position (cuffed, lying face down on the ground) that inhibits their ability to be combative, the need for further restraint is uncalled for.

I could be wrong, but it seems as if you suggest that just because a person is lying face downward with their hands cuffed behind them they should NOT be considered submissive and/or subdued. If so, why is it the position officers place people in when they are arrested? Why do officers use this position with aggressive people? Since I'm not a law enforcement officer nor do I work in law enforcement, I'm just interested in the opinion of someone (you) who is. (If this is not what you're suggesting, please disregard the question).

 

[s phi s]

No apologies needed, but thank you; I'm good I figured since it was me that brought up Sandra Bland's body size and her being handcuffed, you were only responding to my post. No harm, no foul.

I don't know if anyone else has this same "notion" or not, but speaking only for myself, yes, I do have the belief (not notion) that when a person is handcuffed with their hands behind them while lying face down on the ground they are submissive and non-combative, and the need for further force/restraint is unnecessary, especially when (as you said) the officer can use his/her perception to clearly see when their body weight/size outnumbers/overpowers the arrested person. I don't know what "reasonableness" standard is, but I do know what common sense is and I do know that when a person is in a submissive, restrained position (cuffed, lying face down on the ground) that inhibits their ability to be combative, the need for further restraint is uncalled for.

I could be wrong, but it seems as if you suggest that just because a person is lying face downward with their hands cuffed behind them they should NOT be considered submissive and/or subdued. If so, why is it the position officers place people in when they are arrested? Why do officers use this position with aggressive people? Since I'm not a law enforcement officer nor do I work in law enforcement, I'm just interested in the opinion of someone (you) who is. (If this is not what you're suggesting, please disregard the question).

In some instances, yes, that position can indicate being subdued (or submissive, as you refer to it). Based on how I am interpreting the question, I believe we are talking about the same position, but in different contexts. When a person voluntarily assumes a "prone" position, it can be construed as non-combative, and "submissive" (I guess that's where your use of the word comes in....gotcha). At that point, body weight or other restraint techniques should cease once the person is safely cuffed, PROVIDED there is no active resistance. I am speaking of a more confrontational encounter, one where a person was "placed" in the position by force instead of their own volition. In that case, techniques such as the ones you have seen are used to gain compliance and/or control, but should also be discontinued as soon as practical. Correct me if I am wrong, but that's how I interpreted what you said.

As far as the reasonableness standard, I tried to find an article that could explain it clearly. I found a fairly concise explanation here (https://lawenforcementlawyers.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/revisiting-the-“objectively-reasonable”-standard-for-use-of-force/)

An officer’s use of force is governed by the reasonableness standard set forth in Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386, 395, 109 S. Ct. 1865, 104 L. Ed. 2d 443 (1989). The “reasonableness inquiry in an excessive force case is an objective one, meaning, the question is whether the officers’ actions are “objectively reasonable” in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation. So, an officer’s own personal feelings, fear, anger, frustration, etc., are not factors but rather the test is based on the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene. Courts are suppose to determine the reasonableness of the officer’s actions based upon whether another officer standing in this officer’s shoes, reasonably perceived there was a need to use the amount of force used in the given situation.

The one thing that works in favor of the officer is that this standard completely does away with hindsight when determining what is reasonable. The courts only look at the facts and circumstances confronting that officer at the moment that officer decided to use the force that he used, then was that force reasonable when those circumstances are considered, or were they more than an ordinary, similarly trained person in the same position would have done.

 

[96lioness]

In some instances, yes, that position can indicate being subdued (or submissive, as you refer to it). Based on how I am interpreting the question, I believe we are talking about the same position, but in different contexts. When a person voluntarily assumes a "prone" position, it can be construed as non-combative, and "submissive" (I guess that's where your use of the word comes in....gotcha). At that point, body weight or other restraint techniques should cease once the person is safely cuffed, PROVIDED there is no active resistance. I am speaking of a more confrontational encounter, one where a person was "placed" in the position by force instead of their own volition. In that case, techniques such as the ones you have seen are used to gain compliance and/or control, but should also be discontinued as soon as practical. Correct me if I am wrong, but that's how I interpreted what you said.

As far as the reasonableness standard, I tried to find an article that could explain it clearly. I found a fairly concise explanation here (https://lawenforcementlawyers.wordpress.com/2011/08/24/revisiting-the-“objectively-reasonable”-standard-for-use-of-force/)

An officer’s use of force is governed by the reasonableness standard set forth in Graham v. Connor, 490 U.S. 386, 395, 109 S. Ct. 1865, 104 L. Ed. 2d 443 (1989). The “reasonableness inquiry in an excessive force case is an objective one, meaning, the question is whether the officers’ actions are “objectively reasonable” in light of the facts and circumstances confronting them, without regard to their underlying intent or motivation. So, an officer’s own personal feelings, fear, anger, frustration, etc., are not factors but rather the test is based on the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene. Courts are suppose to determine the reasonableness of the officer’s actions based upon whether another officer standing in this officer’s shoes, reasonably perceived there was a need to use the amount of force used in the given situation.

The one thing that works in favor of the officer is that this standard completely does away with hindsight when determining what is reasonable. The courts only look at the facts and circumstances confronting that officer at the moment that officer decided to use the force that he used, then was that force reasonable when those circumstances are considered, or were they more than an ordinary, similarly trained person in the same position would have done.

Thank you, s phi s, for taking the time to answer and provide the definition. I used "submissive" because of it's root (submit), which means to stop trying to resist or oppose something/someone, which is the officer's aim when arresting combative people, which is why that position is used.

But getting back to my original point, I still fail to see why a tiny, petite-sized looking woman such as Sandra Bland, let alone a small, skinny child (McKinney, TX) had added force/restraint continued to be used on them from a larger sized, heavier male while they're lying face-down on the ground with their hands cuffed behind their back. Explain to me how they're still being "actively resistant" if they're in position that inhibits them to be combative/resistant. How was Sandra Bland still being "actively resistant" when she was in this position? I can understand a person could still be verbally resistant, but not "actively resistant". I could even see how a person in this position could do bodily harm to themselves while in this position, but not to an officer. It's just hard to see how anyone in that position can be "actively resistant" toward an officer unless that officer is in extreme close proximity to the arrestee (pardon my terminology; I'm no law enforcement expert). And again, the Texas DPS' not addressing questions on how he pulled his gun on her and how he dragged her out the car (after giving her a written warning) speaks volumes about his conduct as a law enforcement officer.

That's just my $0.02

 

[pvdogteam]

Whether she put up a fight or not, it still doesn't make sense to me that she ended up arrested before he know what he was arresting her for. Also how did she get charged for assault of an officer when she hadn't assaulted anyone while still in the car. She may have hit him after the fact when she panicked, but what was the initial reason to use force and say "I'm going to light you up!" for in the first place?

 

[s phi s]

In McKinney, I would have to agree with you. In the Bland case, I still haven't made up my mind. Face down and handcuffed doesn't restrict a person from kicking and flailing about. Like I said, during my fight, it took me body weight and a bystander holding my subject's legs to control her. They don't have normal use of their hands and arms, but that still does not stop active resistance.


Active resistance can include tensing up, flailing, kicking, or any physical/mechanical effort to thwart or negate an officer's control. All of those behaviors are still possible from that position. In relation to this case specifically, I can't say for sure whether or not active resistance applies. So your assumption could be very correct.


You are also correct in stating that the position could cause harm. It is known as positional asphyxia. Like I said earlier, if body weight or other mechanical means of pressure are used to subdue or control a resistant subject, they should be used for the shortest duration possible, and the person placed in a more natural position as soon as practical.


From the actions that can be seen on camera (I am withholding judgment on anything off camera for the time being), the trooper was within his right to draw the taser. Would I have done it, likely not, but I am not in his shoes. That's one of those things that will be subjected to that reasonableness standard I spoke of earlier.

 

[s phi s]

In McKinney, I would have to agree with you. In the Bland case, I still haven't made up my mind. Face down and handcuffed doesn't restrict a person from kicking and flailing about. Like I said, during my fight, it took me body weight and a bystander holding my subject's legs to control her. They don't have normal use of their hands and arms, but that still does not stop active resistance.


Active resistance can include tensing up, flailing, kicking, or any physical/mechanical effort to thwart or negate an officer's control. All of those behaviors are still possible from that position. In relation to this case specifically, I can't say for sure whether or not active resistance applies. So your assumption could be very correct.


You are also correct in stating that the position could cause harm. It is known as positional asphyxia. Like I said earlier, if body weight or other mechanical means of pressure are used to subdue or control a resistant subject, they should be used for the shortest duration possible, and the person placed in a more natural position as soon as practical.


From the actions that can be seen on camera (I am withholding judgment on anything off camera for the time being), the trooper was within his right to draw the taser. Would I have done it, likely not, but I am not in his shoes. That's one of those things that will be subjected to that reasonableness standard I spoke of earlier.

@96lioness This reply is from your last post to me. Tried for nearly 2 hours to post it as a direct reply but the forum wouldn't let me.