Let Us Reason: The Exodus Story.....

[dacontinent]

I've posted the verses several time, however you refuse to accept the fact that the OT god authorized these acts through Moses. He NEVER once corrected his people for these evils.

"They waged war as god had commanded them and killed every male. But they kept the women as captives and took their wealth as spoil. Moses was enraged. 'So you spared the women? Kill every woman who has had sexual intercourse and kill every little boy, but keep the virgin girls for yourself. Divide them up evenly.'" Num. 31:7, 14
...

Thanks for the scripture reference. I remember it now. You previously contended that there was rape involved. That was in another thread.

If you will recall, I pointed out in that thread that this was an act of war. Israelite baby boys like Moses were killed by the Egyptians as an act of war. I don't ask you to like it. I don't like it. I just understand that it happens in war by definition.

With that said, let's look back at the beginning of the chapter.

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.​

Avenge...avenge...AVENGE!!! That must mean that the Midianites (Moses' in-laws' folks) did something to the Israelites and this was in retaliation. Do you remember what that was? (See comments on just war below.)

That's not true in most of the biblical cases. In most of the cases, the Israelites were the aggressors. In most cases, the Israelite god ordered the death of women, children and babies...

You have to divide the biblical cases between the roaming in the wilderness and the occupancy of Canaan. In the wilderness Israel was attacked. In Canaan they were clearly the aggressors. Once the boundaries of the northern and southern kingdoms were established, we don't find Israel engaged wars to expand those boundaries; just to restore them.

Nice try at trying to avoid answering the question directly. An act of a "just" war requires that the attacker FIRST be attacked. The Israelites were clearly the aggressors, so for you to simply minimize the situation to calling it a mere "act of war", without saying why they were attacking these peoples is dishonest and deceptive.
This wasn't an act of war, it was an act of genocide, thievery murder and coveteousness.

So again I ask, "if you were an alien, minding your own business, in YOUR own house and Israelite invaders came to kill you, your wife and take your daughter(s), would you have fought back against the Israelites or would you have invited them to have their way?

Trying to get Christians to objectively admit that their Old Testament god clearly ordered genocide of innocent peoples, women, children and babies is more difficult than pulling teeth. Some will do anything to avoid being honest about the many atrocities brought on by their so-called "loving" god.

I would fight back. I would kill Israelites, Africans, Americans, Chinese, Ninjas, Samurai, Navy Seals, Green Berets, and anyone else who would attack my family and have no problems with my own death in the process.
I thought I made that clear in the previous post as I tried to be as direct as possible. All of the Canaanites should have fought back and tried to kill as many Israelites as they possibly could. They were at war!

Just war? ... Let's see ... By your brief definition (and mine), there are no just wars. Someone always attacks someone else or the war would never start. Otherwise, the defender retailiating is just; but the moment they turn into the aggressor it is no longer just.

War is really is that simple. The combatants fight AT LEAST until one of opponents can no longer defend itself. The victor may choose to have mercy and allow the loser to live or might just continue to totally eradicate the victim - warriors and civilians included.

The Israelites attacked the people of Canaan in order to occupy those lands. That was and still is clear. Rahab articulated as much when the spies came to her in Jericho. Others peopel groups knew and tricked Joshua into making pacts with them not long after that. According to the scriptures the Canaanites knew that the Israelites were coming, they knew why, and they knew Who would cause those occupants to lose the battles.

 

[JayRob]

Thanks for the scripture reference. I remember it now. You previously contended that there was rape involved. That was in another thread.

If you will recall, I pointed out in that thread that this was an act of war. Israelite baby boys like Moses were killed by the Egyptians as an act of war. I don't ask you to like it. I don't like it. I just understand that it happens in war by definition.

With that said, let's look back at the beginning of the chapter.
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
Avenge...avenge...AVENGE!!! That must mean that the Midianites (Moses' in-laws' folks) did something to the Israelites and this was in retaliation. Do you remember what that was? (See comments on just war below.)

What did the Midianites do to deserve genocide? What did the women do to deserve to be raped and kept as "pets"? What did the children do to deserve to be hacked to pieces.

This is what perplexes me. For religious people to claim the banner of "love", they don't realize that at times they've become immune to the violence mentioned in the bible. Some go so far as to justify rape, murder and genocide in the OT and in the New Testament book of Revelation.
When another religion does it, they cry "foul", but when their religion does it, it's called "doing god's will". Pure hypocrisy all the way through to the core.

You have to divide the biblical cases between the roaming in the wilderness and the occupancy of Canaan. In the wilderness Israel was attacked. In Canaan they were clearly the aggressors. Once the boundaries of the northern and southern kingdoms were established, we don't find Israel engaged wars to expand those boundaries; just to restore them.

Simple fact is that the Old Testament god built the foundation of the Israelites on war, murder, thievery, coveteousness and pillaging. Just go and TAKE the land, nevermind that there are people residing there who've never attacked you.
Is this just? Is this moral? Is this ethical? Is this loving? No, no, no and no.

I would fight back. I would kill Israelites, Africans, Americans, Chinese, Ninjas, Samurai, Navy Seals, Green Berets, and anyone else who would attack my family and have no problems with my own death in the process.

I thought I made that clear in the previous post as I tried to be as direct as possible. All of the Canaanites should have fought back and tried to kill as many Israelites as they possibly could. They were at war!

At least you got that part right. The Canaanites were unjustly treated, but Christians say they deserved it. Wow!! This shows how insensitive and callous religion make people without them even realizing it.
Thank goodness I managed to escape it.

Just war? ... Let's see ... By your brief definition (and mine), there are no just wars. Someone always attacks someone else or the war would never start. Otherwise, the defender retailiating is just; but the moment they turn into the aggressor it is no longer just.

War is really is that simple. The combatants fight AT LEAST until one of opponents can no longer defend itself. The victor may choose to have mercy and allow the loser to live or might just continue to totally eradicate the victim - warriors and civilians included.

The Israelites attacked the people of Canaan in order to occupy those lands. That was and still is clear. Rahab articulated as much when the spies came to her in Jericho. Others peopel groups knew and tricked Joshua into making pacts with them not long after that. According to the scriptures the Canaanites knew that the Israelites were coming, they knew why, and they knew Who would cause those occupants to lose the battles

So you finally admit that the OT Israelites founded their entire system on pure unadulterated war, murder, thievery and coveteousness? If you can admit such, why would you or anyone else who considers themselves as "just, moral and ethical" human beings, want to continue building on such a foundation?

 

[dacontinent]

( 1 )What did the Midianites do to deserve genocide? ( 2 )What did the women do to deserve to be raped and kept as "pets"? ( 3 )What did the children do to deserve to be hacked to pieces.

This is what perplexes me. For religious people to claim the banner of "love", they don't realize that at times they've become immune to the violence mentioned in the bible. Some go so far as to justify rape, murder and genocide in the OT and in the New Testament book of Revelation.
When another religion does it, they cry "foul", but when their religion does it, it's called "doing god's will". Pure hypocrisy all the way through to the core.

1. I asked you first.
2. They were not raped. They were kept as servants. Remember, this was Moses' order; Moses who was married to a Midianite woman.
3. Nothing. They were merely Midianites.

You don't mean "religious people" since you are one. What you mean is some Christians and Jews. I am clearly not one of those persons of whom you speak.

Simple fact is that the Old Testament god built the foundation of the Israelites on war, murder, thievery, coveteousness and pillaging. Just go and TAKE the land, nevermind that there are people residing there who've never attacked you.
Is this just? Is this moral? Is this ethical? Is this loving? No, no, no and no.

You must be referring to Baal, Ashtoreth, or some other idol. The foundation of the Israelites was built on God's promise to Abraham for walking faithfully with Him. Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Once again, you don't have to agree.

At least you got that part right. The Canaanites were unjustly treated, but Christians say they deserved it. Wow!! This shows how insensitive and callous religion make people without them even realizing it.
Thank goodness I managed to escape it.

I got it right the first time. I just made it larger to make sure you did not miss it again. I don't know what Christians you talk to or read who say that the Canaanites "deserved" to have their land conquered. Frankly, I have never heard it as an issue until now.

So you finally admit that the OT Israelites founded their entire system on pure unadulterated war, murder, thievery and coveteousness? If you can admit such, why would you or anyone else who considers themselves as "just, moral and ethical" human beings, want to continue building on such a foundation?

Their entire system was founded on faith. The methodology for obtaining the promise was war. Murder happens in war and spoils are part of the conquest. If you don't believe that, you should be abandoning everything you own here and packing your bags to go back to where your ancestors hailed. This country was built using the same methodology. Otherwise, you are just as hypocritical in your religion as you claim the OT Israelites to be.

 

[JayRob]

I asked you first.

You didn't ask the question, I did. It's obvious you don't have an answer, nevertheless being brainwashed doesn't require a reason to do anything, just as long as the bible says do it.
Now show me your post where you asked the exact question, "what did the Midianites do to the Israelites to deserve being invaded?"

[*]They were not raped. They were kept as servants. Remember, this was Moses' order; Moses who was married to a Midianite woman.

How do you know they weren't raped? Why were they kept as servants, other than for occasional sexual pleasures? Surely you haven't brainwashed yourself into believing that the Israelite men ONLY kept virgins just for servanthood? Just in case you do, you're more delusional than I originally gave you credit for.

[*]Nothing. They were merely Midianites.

So you ADMIT that the children did nothing, yet were killed, wiped out, eradicated?! How loving of a god to do such a thing.

You don't mean "religious people" since you are one. What you mean is some Christians and Jews. I am clearly not one of those persons of whom you speak.

Your posts are clear proof that you are hypocritical. You'll quickly condemn other religions, yet when you clearly see that the OT god did outlandish evil, you refuse to admit it, you shy away from it and try to divert to another subject.
Simply put, the OT god was pure, unadulterated evil, disguised as a god of love. What loving god would allow his people to wander in a desert for 40 years and allow most of the adults to die there after promising a land of milk and honey? They only received sun and sand.

You must be referring to Baal, Ashtoreth, or some other idol. The foundation of the Israelites was built on God's promise to Abraham for walking faithfully with Him. Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Once again, you don't have to agree.

The foundation was built on murder, because they were promised the land of other people. One of the first major goals of the Israelites were to murder, pillage and steal the land of innocent inhabitants. Their whole goal was to take land that didn't belong to them.
It was authorized by their looney and psychotic god. If they refused to do what he said, what did he do.....he killed them off. In the end, he did kill off most of his own people, leaving a small percentage behind. Read it. It's all there in the Old Testament. I don't have to lie about it.
Some god, some plan, some reward.

I got it right the first time. I just made it larger to make sure you did not miss it again. I don't know what Christians you talk to or read who say that the Canaanites "deserved" to have their land conquered. Frankly, I have never heard it as an issue until now.

You've never heard it as an issue because Christians don't want to face the writings about murder, pillage, rape and death strewn throughout the Old Testament. Ministers don't want to talk about that. They shy away from it. Perhaps you need to refresh the minds of your congregation by giving them an overview of the many thousands and thousands and thousands of killings and murders authorized by the psychotic god of the OT. Enlighten your Sunday school students with such knowledge. I'm sure they'd appreciate it and thank you for it afterwards. Tell them this is how a loving god operates, so they can learn from his example.

Their entire system was founded on faith. The methodology for obtaining the promise was war. Murder happens in war and spoils are part of the conquest.

The Israelite system was founded on faith IN killing, not faith alone. It was based on coveteousness because they wanted and craved the lands of others. They were taught to violate their own commandments. No wonder they didn't follow them. They were taught NOT too.

The Israelites had to know that the land they were promised was already being occupied by the natives. They had to know that they would have to drive out the innocent inhabitants who had lived there for years. They had to know that this was unjust. They had to know that this required murdering women, children and babies. The leaders like Moses had to know that this requred lying to their people in order to get them to join in with the killings and invasions.

If you don't believe that, you should be abandoning everything you own here and packing your bags to go back to where your ancestors hailed. This country was built using the same methodology. Otherwise, you are just as hypocritical in your religion as you claim the OT Israelites to be.

Again, you're trying to mix "unjust invasions of territories" with "right and just wars". You didn't hear me claim that the Americans were just in taking the lands of the native Americans. You simply labelled me as a hypocrite as if I agreed with this country's sordid history.
I know why you did it. It was to justify and ease the burden hanging over the heads of those believing in the evil tactics brought on by the OT god.
I didn't agree with taking the native Americans land no more than the Israelites taking lands from the natives during their unjust invasions, killings, raping and pillaging. I didn't take part in the thievery, so the burden is not on me.
This is merely another way for you to divert from the evil perpetrated by a god Christians claim is full of love, mercy, goodness, kindness, peace and joy. Try telling that to the Midianites, Amalekites, Canaanites and others who were unjustly exterminated.

 

[dacontinent]

You didn't ask the question, I did. It's obvious you don't have an answer, nevertheless being brainwashed doesn't require a reason to do anything, just as long as the bible says do it.
Now show me your post where you asked the exact question, "what did the Midianites do to the Israelites to deserve being invaded?"...

Go back and read my first entry in Post #76. Then read your first entry in Post #77. Then, answer the question that I asked you in #76 and you might find that you didn't need to ask it in #77.

How do you know they weren't raped? Why were they kept as servants, other than for occasional sexual pleasures? Surely you haven't brainwashed yourself into believing that the Israelite men ONLY kept virgins just for servanthood? Just in case you do, you're more delusional than I originally gave you credit for...

I wasn't there and there is no record of rape as you have asserted on several occasions. You jumped to that conclusion based solely on your own thoughts.

So you ADMIT that the children did nothing, yet were killed, wiped out, eradicated?! How loving of a god to do such a thing.

Your posts are clear proof that you are hypocritical. You'll quickly condemn other religions, yet when you clearly see that the OT god did outlandish evil, you refuse to admit it, you shy away from it and try to divert to another subject.
Simply put, the OT god was pure, unadulterated evil, disguised as a god of love. What loving god would allow his people to wander in a desert for 40 years and allow most of the adults to die there after promising a land of milk and honey? They only received sun and sand.
...

First of all, I have not condemned even one person. Not one. Remember that more than 20K Israelites were killed by other Israelites because of their engaging with the Midianites.
A loving God allowed a faithless and disobedient generation to die in the wilderness while demonstrating to those coming generations His faithfulness. This built faith for those coming generations to trust him amid the adversity that they would face in conquering the Land of Promise. A very loving thing for Him to do.

The foundation was built on murder, because they were promised the land of other people. One of the first major goals of the Israelites were to murder, pillage and steal the land of innocent inhabitants. Their whole goal was to take land that didn't belong to them.
It was authorized by their looney and psychotic god. If they refused to do what he said, what did he do.....he killed them off. In the end, he did kill off most of his own people, leaving a small percentage behind. Read it. It's all there in the Old Testament. I don't have to lie about it.
Some god, some plan, some reward...

I suppose the Canaanites could have just given up the land without a fight and walked away. That was an option.

Read it?! Maybe you should. You might figure out that there were more Israelites after 40 years of wandering than the number that left Egypt. Some AWESOME GOD. Some ASTOUNDING PLAN. Some RICH REWARD!!!

You've never heard it as an issue because Christians don't want to face the writings about murder, pillage, rape and death strewn throughout the Old Testament. Ministers don't want to talk about that. They shy away from it. Perhaps you need to refresh the minds of your congregation by giving them an overview of the many thousands and thousands and thousands of killings and murders authorized by the psychotic god of the OT. Enlighten your Sunday school students with such knowledge. I'm sure they'd appreciate it and thank you for it afterwards. Tell them this is how a loving god operates, so they can learn from his example.
...

My Sunday School and Bible Study students already know. They have examined and discussed every verse of scripture from Exodus - Judges very intently. They know the answers to my questions because they have seen the questions before. They have seen most of your questions before. They know how a loving God operates both from His Word and their reality.

Again, you're trying to mix "unjust invasions of territories" with "right and just wars". You didn't hear me claim that the Americans were just in taking the lands of the native Americans. You simply labelled me as a hypocrite as if I agreed with this country's sordid history.
I know why you did it. It was to justify and ease the burden hanging over the heads of those believing in the evil tactics brought on by the OT god.
I didn't agree with taking the native Americans land no more than the Israelites taking lands from the natives during their unjust invasions, killings, raping and pillaging. I didn't take part in the thievery, so the burden is not on me.
This is merely another way for you to divert from the evil perpetrated by a god Christians claim is full of love, mercy, goodness, kindness, peace and joy. Try telling that to the Midianites, Amalekites, Canaanites and others who were unjustly exterminated.

I label you as hypocritical because you condemn God, the Israelites, and who supports the position as documented in the scriptures yet you continue to live here in the USA while "...[considering yourself] as "just, moral and ethical" human being and "continue building on such a foundation". If you want to know why I take a given position, just ask me. Don't assume. You only know about me what is posted in these forums.

You continually throw rape in your descriptions without a single shread of proof. As for invasions, killings, and pillaging, its all there for everyone to see. Nothing hidden. War continues that way to this day. Of course, such actions have nothing to do with the 10 Commandments, Code of Hammurabi, Lessons from the Dead, or anything else that we can find codified among the ancients.

 

[JayRob]

Go back and read my first entry in Post #76. Then read your first entry in Post #77. Then, answer the question that I asked you in #76 and you might find that you didn't need to ask it in #77.

What did the Midianites do to the Israelites? Why are you so afraid to answer one simple question?

I wasn't there and there is no record of rape as you have asserted on several occasions. You jumped to that conclusion based solely on your own thoughts.

Why else would they just want to keep ONLY the virgins alive? Why does the bible even mention the phrase "women who had known men" as the ones to be killed? Again, you're simply afraid to admit the obvious.

First of all, I have not condemned even one person. Not one. Remember that more than 20K Israelites were killed by other Israelites because of their engaging with the Midianites.

A loving god killed and murdered 20,000 and you call that loving?! Thank goodness it's a book of fiction.

A loving God allowed a faithless and disobedient generation to die in the wilderness while demonstrating to those coming generations His faithfulness. This built faith for those coming generations to trust him amid the adversity that they would face in conquering the Land of Promise. A very loving thing for Him to do.

The people didn't even have the holy spirit and COULDN'T obey even if they wanted too, so how was this a "just" act to begin with. All of those people had no way of obeying the lunatic god. Why you failed to mention this bit of information is beyond me.
In addition, the coming generations were lead into captivity and most were killed off, so for you to say that it built lasting faith is not true at all.
If the Israelites could obey the OT god without the holy spirit, there was no need for a holy spirit to begin with. You can't have it both ways.

I suppose the Canaanites could have just given up the land without a fight and walked away. That was an option.

Likewise, if someone attacked your family, you have an option to give up without a fight and walk away too. Now you know that sounds ludricous. Don't know why you even bothered to type such.

Read it?! Maybe you should. You might figure out that there were more Israelites after 40 years of wandering than the number that left Egypt. Some AWESOME GOD. Some ASTOUNDING PLAN. Some RICH REWARD!!!

And you read it, that after the captivity, there were FEWER, so where was that faithfulness in the long run? It was empty faith because a cruel and senseless god ordered mere mortals to obey his laws and commandments without the aid of the holy spirit, which supposedly helps them to overcome sin. In other words, he asked them to do the impossible. He HAD to know that they couldn't obey without his holy spirit, yet he STILL either killed them off or sent them into captivity. Now that's REAL love, I suppose.

My Sunday School and Bible Study students already know. They have examined and discussed every verse of scripture from Exodus - Judges very intently. They know the answers to my questions because they have seen the questions before. They have seen most of your questions before. They know how a loving God operates both from His Word and their reality.

Your Sunday school students couldn't have known that it was unjust for this OT god to have murdered his own people because you don't seem to know, then again, perhaps they know more than you.
Based on your postings, you've shown no knowledge of the fact that the OT god was one of the worst god's known to man because of how he treated not only his people, but how he treated innocent women, children and babies from other nations who weren't enemies of Israel.
He ordered his people to do something he KNEW they couldn't do, then he killed them for not doing what they COULDN'T do.
That is pure unadulterated psychosis and lunacy.

I label you as hypocritical because you condemn God, the Israelites, and who supports the position as documented in the scriptures yet you continue to live here in the USA while "...[considering yourself] as "just, moral and ethical" human being and "continue building on such a foundation". If you want to know why I take a given position, just ask me. Don't assume. You only know about me what is posted in these forums.

So I'm guilty of something people did hundreds of years before I was born? You sound just like the psychotic OT god who placed judgement on the children for sins committed by their parents. Not surprised though.

You continually throw rape in your descriptions without a single shread of proof. As for invasions, killings, and pillaging, its all there for everyone to see. Nothing hidden. War continues that way to this day. Of course, such actions have nothing to do with the 10 Commandments, Code of Hammurabi, Lessons from the Dead, or anything else that we can find codified among the ancients.

Live in denial all you want to. Either you had forgotten about the orders from Moses for the men to keep the virgins or you simply chose to ignore it. I can almost bet that you didn't mention to your students as to WHY the Israelite MEN only kept the virgins.
I'm sure you didn't ask your students "why would the MEN WANT TO KEEP ONLY THE VIRGINS?!"
Come on man, leave the denial behind and fastforward to honesty and truth. You'll be all the better for it.

Fact of the matter is that the Israelites from there beginnings were an aggressor people and you know it. They took what they wanted based on orders from their mythical sky god. They plotted, planned and spied in order to steal, kill, destroy and pillage non-enemy nations, nations who had done NOTHING to them.
Again, what did the Midianites do to the Israelites? What did the Canaanites do to them? The Israelites practically MADE enemies for no reason at all from the start. Deut. 7:1 and Joshua 14:7-10 clearly proves this.
Joshua craved and coveted the possessions of his neighbors, something that was clearly forbidden in the ten commandments. The commandments didn't seem to matter in these cases and were conveniently put on hold by the OT god.

If you support the tactics of the ancient Israelites for invading non-enemy nations, you're no different than today's Israelis invading the occupied territories of the Palestinians.

 

[dacontinent]

What did the Midianites do to the Israelites? Why are you so afraid to answer one simple question?

Why else would they just want to keep ONLY the virgins alive? Why does the bible even mention the phrase "women who had known men" as the ones to be killed? Again, you're simply afraid to admit the obvious

A loving god killed and murdered 20,000 and you call that loving?! Thank goodness it's a book of fiction....

Perhaps you don't know what the Midianites did to the Israelites. My Sunday School class did, so they told me the 24,000 Israelites were executed and why only the Midianite virgins were kept alive. I didn't have to ask them.

The people didn't even have the holy spirit and COULDN'T obey even if they wanted too, so how was this a "just" act to begin with. All of those people had no way of obeying the lunatic god. Why you failed to mention this bit of information is beyond me.
In addition, the coming generations were lead into captivity and most were killed off, so for you to say that it built lasting faith is not true at all.
If the Israelites could obey the OT god without the holy spirit, there was no need for a holy spirit to begin with. You can't have it both ways...

That is a pretty nice try for someone who asserts that he doesn't have and doesn't need the Holy Spirit. You're wrong, but it was a good attempt. Your assertion that the Holy Spirit is needed in order to obey is extra-Biblical. Having the Holy Spirit does not force one to obey either.

Likewise, if someone attacked your family, you have an option to give up without a fight and walk away too. Now you know that sounds ludricous. Don't know why you even bothered to type such.
...

I typed it because I am capable of being as cynical as you are.

...And you read it, that after the captivity, there were FEWER, so where was that faithfulness in the long run? It was empty faith because a cruel and senseless god ordered mere mortals to obey his laws and commandments without the aid of the holy spirit, which supposedly helps them to overcome sin. In other words, he asked them to do the impossible. He HAD to know that they couldn't obey without his holy spirit, yet he STILL either killed them off or sent them into captivity. Now that's REAL love, I suppose...

You must have slipped a notch. The next generations were going into the Promised Land and not into captivity. What ARE you talking about? You are not making sense here.

...Your Sunday school students couldn't have known that it was unjust for this OT god to have murdered his own people because you don't seem to know, then again, perhaps they know more than you.
Based on your postings, you've shown no knowledge of the fact that the OT god was one of the worst god's known to man because of how he treated not only his people, but how he treated innocent women, children and babies from other nations who weren't enemies of Israel.
He ordered his people to do something he KNEW they couldn't do, then he killed them for not doing what they COULDN'T do.
That is pure unadulterated psychosis and lunacy.
...

Surely the class knows because I reminded them of it in the premise of setting up the discussion.
Based on your postings, you have no spiritual discernment for the the things of God. I will note that you readily admit that, which is also in-line with the scriptures.

So I'm guilty of something people did hundreds of years before I was born? You sound just like the psychotic OT god who placed judgement on the children for sins committed by their parents. Not surprised though.



Live in denial all you want to. Either you had forgotten about the orders from Moses for the men to keep the virgins or you simply chose to ignore it. I can almost bet that you didn't mention to your students as to WHY the Israelite MEN only kept the virgins.
I'm sure you didn't ask your students "why would the MEN WANT TO KEEP ONLY THE VIRGINS?!"
Come on man, leave the denial behind and fastforward to honesty and truth. You'll be all the better for it.

Fact of the matter is that the Israelites from there beginnings were an aggressor people and you know it. They took what they wanted based on orders from their mythical sky god. They plotted, planned and spied in order to steal, kill, destroy and pillage non-enemy nations, nations who had done NOTHING to them.
Again, what did the Midianites do to the Israelites? What did the Canaanites do to them? The Israelites practically MADE enemies for no reason at all from the start. Deut. 7:1 and Joshua 14:7-10 clearly proves this.
Joshua craved and coveted the possessions of his neighbors, something that was clearly forbidden in the ten commandments. The commandments didn't seem to matter in these cases and were conveniently put on hold by the OT god.

If you support the tactics of the ancient Israelites for invading non-enemy nations, you're no different than today's Israelis invading the occupied territories of the Palestinians.

So I'm guilty of something people did hundreds of years before I was born? You sound just like the psychotic OT god who placed judgement on the children for sins committed by their parents. Not surprised though...

No. Based on your evaluation, we both are guilty of building on a foundation (USA) that was established on murder, pillaging, etc.

Live in denial all you want to. Either you had forgotten about the orders from Moses for the men to keep the virgins or you simply chose to ignore it. I can almost bet that you didn't mention to your students as to WHY the Israelite MEN only kept the virgins.
I'm sure you didn't ask your students "why would the MEN WANT TO KEEP ONLY THE VIRGINS?!"
Come on man, leave the denial behind and fastforward to honesty and truth. You'll be all the better for it.

Fact of the matter is that the Israelites from there beginnings were an aggressor people and you know it. They took what they wanted based on orders from their mythical sky god. They plotted, planned and spied in order to steal, kill, destroy and pillage non-enemy nations, nations who had done NOTHING to them.
Again, what did the Midianites do to the Israelites? What did the Canaanites do to them? The Israelites practically MADE enemies for no reason at all from the start. Deut. 7:1 and Joshua 14:7-10 clearly proves this.
Joshua craved and coveted the possessions of his neighbors, something that was clearly forbidden in the ten commandments. The commandments didn't seem to matter in these cases and were conveniently put on hold by the OT god.

If you support the tactics of the ancient Israelites for invading non-enemy nations, you're no different than today's Israelis invading the occupied territories of the Palestinians.

Live by assumption all you want. It will not serve you well. You simply show again how little you know about the Midianites and what was going on. You not only need the Holy Spirit, you need to :read: . You must not have read the exodus and the accounts of the interactions between Israel and the people groups that they encountered on their wanderings between Egypt and Canaan - who attacked whom and why. Your reading comprehension is better than that; therefore, I must conclude that you haven't read. You don't understand the 10 commandments or you would understand that the Canaanites were NOT Israel's neighbors any more that the Nazi Party is your neighbor. You really don't get it that the battle for Canaan was God's war to fight and Israel's job was simply occupation. You don't need the Holy Spirit to understand that and neither did the Israelites.

I have no problem with war at all. I know it is going to happen and so do you. The Israelis, Palestinians, Afghanis, etc., all know that. That is why there are armies.

 

[Dr H..]

Your assertion that the Holy Spirit is needed in order to obey is extra-Biblical. Having the Holy Spirit does not force one to obey either.

So true!

God dealt "Nations" directly

 

[JayRob]

Perhaps you don't know what the Midianites did to the Israelites. My Sunday School class did, so they told me the 24,000 Israelites were executed and why only the Midianite virgins were kept alive. I didn't have to ask them.

I continue to ask you about the Midianites and you continue to refuse to "enlighten" me. Tell me what the Midianites did to the Israelites. I'm sure you understand the question.

That is a pretty nice try for someone who asserts that he doesn't have and doesn't need the Holy Spirit. You're wrong, but it was a good attempt. Your assertion that the Holy Spirit is needed in order to obey is extra-Biblical. Having the Holy Spirit does not force one to obey either.

It's not about me believing in some holy spirit, it's about me describing the fictional biblical teachings and how supposed Christians don't even know their own bible.

It's clear that the apostle named Paul disagrees with you. Guess what he said about the ability of the carnal minded man to obey the "laws" of your god? Romans 8:6-7. "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so." Paul says the carnal mind can't obey, you say it can. Who should one believe?
If the carnal mind can't obey, why did the OT god force carnal minded Israelites to try and obey him? It's because he used them as guinea pigs and killed them all off in the process after they failed to obey something they couldn't.

Paul again disagrees with you in Hebrews 7:6-7 by admitting that the covenant made in the OT was flawed. The people didn't have the holy spirit, so they COULDN'T obey. This is how unjust the OT god was. He tried to force physical, carnal people to obey spiritual laws. You should already know this. The commandments are spiritual, not physical.

Paul says in Romans 7:14 "14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." Was Paul lying when he clearly said that the law is spiritual?

The Israelites were unspiritual, so there's no way they could've obeyed. Only those men with the holy spirit like Moses, Joshua and Caleb were able to overcome, nevertheless the Israelite people were ORDERED to do something this tyrannical Old Testament god KNEW they were incapable of doing.
You should already know this, but it seems you don't.

You must have slipped a notch. The next generations were going into the Promised Land and not into captivity. What ARE you talking about? You are not making sense here.

You said "long-term". Fact of the matter is that after Solomon's reign, the Israelites (and Jews later on), were taken into captivity and their culture was almost totally destroyed.
Some god they had, some plan. It didn't work out did it? No, it didn't. Why? Because it was impossible for the Israelites to obey without a supposed holy spirit, but nevermind that. The god of death didn't seem to care one bit.

Surely the class knows because I reminded them of it in the premise of setting up the discussion.
Based on your postings, you have no spiritual discernment for the the things of God. I will note that you readily admit that, which is also in-line with the scriptures.

If you didn't directly ask them "why the virgins were kept" and not the other women, then you didn't ask the question and you certainly didn't discuss it with them. You know it and I know it. If you did, what was their response? I'd really like to know. Any "real" man would automatically KNOW why the men of war wanted to keep ONLY the virgins. LOL!!

No. Based on your evaluation, we both are guilty of building on a foundation (USA) that was established on murder, pillaging, etc.

I had no part in taking land, killing Indians no more than my White once upon a time elementary school classmates had in taking part in slavery. You can go on blaming yourself for the sins of others, but don't include me. You're used to it anyhow due to the Christian doctrine of vicarious liability.

Live by assumption all you want. It will not serve you well. You simply show again how little you know about the Midianites and what was going on. You not only need the Holy Spirit, you need to :read: . You must not have read the exodus and the accounts of the interactions between Israel and the people groups that they encountered on their wanderings between Egypt and Canaan - who attacked whom and why. Your reading comprehension is better than that; therefore, I must conclude that you haven't read. You don't understand the 10 commandments or you would understand that the Canaanites were NOT Israel's neighbors any more that the Nazi Party is your neighbor. You really don't get it that the battle for Canaan was God's war to fight and Israel's job was simply occupation. You don't need the Holy Spirit to understand that and neither did the Israelites.

More mumbo-jumbo and white noise. Again I ask, WHY DID GOD COMMAND THE ISRAELITES TO ATTACK THE MIDIANITES?
What are you afraid of? This is the fourth time I've posed this simple question, yet you continue to cower away from it?

I have no problem with war at all. I know it is going to happen and so do you. The Israelis, Palestinians, Afghanis, etc., all know that. That is why there are armies.

Again you're evading the real subject, which is the subject of a "just" war. The Israelites attacked other nations for little to no reason. By your trying to avoid so much as discussing why the Israelites were killers and murderers, it shows your embarassment of the subject and it shows that you can't offer any justification for their atrocities. The best you can do is skip over it and hope I don't call you out on it.
The Israelites over and over again broke their own commandments, yet you mention nothing about this. Again, you're avoiding it due to your embarassment of their actions.

 

[JayRob]

So true!

God dealt "Nations" directly

It seems that you're no more knowledgeable of your own bible regarding this particular subject than dacontinent.

I'll basically repeat the same response to you.....

It's clear that the apostle named Paul disagrees with you. Guess what he said about the ability of the carnal minded man to obey the "laws" of your god? Romans 8:6-7. "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so." Paul says the carnal mind can't obey, you say it can. Who should one believe?
If the carnal mind can't obey, why did the OT god force carnal minded Israelites to try and obey him? It's because he used them as guinea pigs and killed them all off in the process after they failed to obey something they couldn't.

Paul again disagrees with you in Hebrews 7:6-7 by admitting that the covenant made in the OT was flawed. The people didn't have the holy spirit, so they COULDN'T obey. This is how unjust the OT god was. He tried to force physical, carnal people to obey spiritual laws. And he did try and FORCE them. What did he promise them if they didn't OBEY? D-E-A-T-H....DEATH!!
You should already know this.

Paul says in Romans 7:14 "14, We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." Was Paul lying when he clearly said that the law is spiritual?

The Israelites were unspiritual, so there's no way they could've obeyed. Only those men with the holy spirit like Moses, Joshua and Caleb were able to overcome, nevertheless the Israelite people were ORDERED to do something this tyrannical Old Testament god KNEW they were incapable of doing.
Again, you should already know this, but it seems you don't.

 

[Dr H..]

JR

I am asking you again, what type of evidence you are searching for. As I said before Great Indian Nations onced lived in the United States, and there is no evidence the ever lived along the Mississippi or Tennessee River. There are no villages, Tee P's or cemeteries - You might find an arrowhead here and there, but overall there is no evidence they existed.

 

[dacontinent]

I continue to ask you about the Midianites and you continue to refuse to "enlighten" me. Tell me what the Midianites did to the Israelites. I'm sure you understand the question...

I must conclude that you don't know the answer. Read Numbers 23-25. Reach your own conclusion and get back to me.

It's not about me believing in some holy spirit, it's about me describing the fictional biblical teachings and how supposed Christians don't even know their own bible.

It's clear that the apostle named Paul disagrees with you. Guess what he said about the ability of the carnal minded man to obey the "laws" of your god? Romans 8:6-7. "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so." Paul says the carnal mind can't obey, you say it can. Who should one believe?
If the carnal mind can't obey, why did the OT god force carnal minded Israelites to try and obey him? It's because he used them as guinea pigs and killed them all off in the process after they failed to obey something they couldn't.

Paul again disagrees with you in Hebrews 7:6-7 by admitting that the covenant made in the OT was flawed. The people didn't have the holy spirit, so they COULDN'T obey. This is how unjust the OT god was. He tried to force physical, carnal people to obey spiritual laws. You should already know this. The commandments are spiritual, not physical.

Paul says in Romans 7:14 "14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." Was Paul lying when he clearly said that the law is spiritual?

The Israelites were unspiritual, so there's no way they could've obeyed. Only those men with the holy spirit like Moses, Joshua and Caleb were able to overcome, nevertheless the Israelite people were ORDERED to do something this tyrannical Old Testament god KNEW they were incapable of doing.
You should already know this, but it seems you don't...

What is clear is that you have a carnal mind and you don't understand, as noted in Romans 8:7. Moses failed to enter the Promised Land because of his disobedience and Joshua failed to drive out the Canaanites. Paul speaks of himself and his own struggles. On the other hand, Enoch pleased God so well that he walked right on out of this earthly existence. Once again, having the Holy Spirit does not mean that a person will obey or get things right all of the time. I agree with Paul, but you do not understand either of us.

You said "long-term". Fact of the matter is that after Solomon's reign, the Israelites (and Jews later on), were taken into captivity and their culture was almost totally destroyed.
Some god they had, some plan. It didn't work out did it? No, it didn't. Why? Because it was impossible for the Israelites to obey without a supposed holy spirit, but nevermind that. The god of death didn't seem to care one bit...

You are reminding me more and more of why things are written down. What I did say was

A loving God allowed a faithless and disobedient generation to die in the wilderness while demonstrating to those coming generations His faithfulness. This built faith for those coming generations to trust him amid the adversity that they would face in conquering the Land of Promise. A very loving thing for Him to do.​

I want to make sure that you get it this time. The faithless and disobedient generation died in the wilderness without entering Canaan. The coming generations (the youngsters who came out of Egypt and the offspring born during the wilderness travels) learned about the power and faithfulness of God through the experiences of those wanderings. All of the "long-term" stuff comes from YOUR own posts and YOUR own mind. Solomon, David, et. al., were hundreds of years later.

If you didn't directly ask them "why the virgins were kept" and not the other women, then you didn't ask the question and you certainly didn't discuss it with them. You know it and I know it. If you did, what was their response? I'd really like to know. Any "real" man would automatically KNOW why the men of war wanted to keep ONLY the virgins. LOL!!...

I asked them this: "What was being avenged by Israel Numbers 31:1-2?" Then we discussed it. Later I asked: "Why were the virgins kept and all of the other Midianites killed?" Then we discussed it. We don't do things in a vacuum. If it is in the scripture, we make a point of examining it to the best of our ability and with the help of our Paraclete.

Remember that the Midianites and Israelites were both decendents of Abraham. They were kindred.

Again you're evading the real subject, which is the subject of a "just" war. The Israelites attacked other nations for little to no reason. By your trying to avoid so much as discussing why the Israelites were killers and murderers, it shows your embarassment of the subject and it shows that you can't offer any justification for their atrocities. The best you can do is skip over it and hope I don't call you out on it.
The Israelites over and over again broke their own commandments, yet you mention nothing about this. Again, you're avoiding it due to your embarassment of their actions.

I have not avoided the subject at all. I have delineated why the concept of a "just war" is oxymoronic. Killing and murder is going to occur in war. The Israelites did it; the fill-in-the-blank'ites did it and it will continue. It is inherent in war. You don't like that and I don't either. I choose to understand it; you don't seem to get that. See my comment in the previous post about you not being able to separate the 10 commandments from war.

 

[JayRob]

JR

I am asking you again, what type of evidence you are searching for. As I said before Great Indian Nations onced lived in the United States, and there is no evidence the ever lived along the Mississippi or Tennessee River. There are no villages, Tee P's or cemeteries - You might find an arrowhead here and there, but overall there is no evidence they existed.

Don't know where this came from, but I'll answer anyhow.

Along the Mississippi River, you have the names of many great Indian tribes such as the Yazoo, Natchez, Chickasaw, Iroquois, Sioux etc. As evidence, there are Native American artifacts. linguistic evidence, history books from various sources and you have ancestral Indians themselves who have oral records of their cultures.

All of those ingredients combine to easily debunk your theory that there's "no evidence that they existed" along the Mississippi River.

 

[Apaquelypse]

Don't know where this came from, but I'll answer anyhow.

Along the Mississippi River, you have the names of many great Indian tribes such as the Yazoo, Natchez, Chickasaw, Iroquois, Sioux etc. As evidence, there are Native American artifacts. linguistic evidence, history books from various sources and you have ancestral Indians themselves who have oral records of their cultures.

All of those ingredients combine to easily debunk your theory that there's "no evidence that they existed" along the Mississippi River.

Jay, this one is too easy-even for me.

Just because you have the names along the river is no more true evidence than the bible you continually try to deflate. those names could too actually be the result of copied names and stories passed on from one generation to another.
The fact that you even call them native americans tells me that your train of thought is based on the western civilization train of thought. we all know the real truth about history books, and those artifacts (yeah right) were designed to make them appear to as primative as possible and to suggest that the whites were way smarter and more advanced than the "native americans"...lingustic evidence? c'mon son.....

 

[JayRob]

must conclude that you don't know the answer. Read Numbers 23-25. Reach your own conclusion and get back to me.

Those chapters still don't answer the question as to why Israel attacked the Midianites beforehand.
Wasn't it the Israelites who decided to move NEXT to the Midianites. Why would their god locate them NEXT TO these pagan folks if he didn't have the sense to know what their practices were like BEFORE moving them there? That was stupid to begin with. That's like me moving next to a neighbor with a nasty yard, then getting upset with him because his yard is nasty. I knew that BEFORE I moved next to him, so I should take some of the blame. The OT god took no blame at all. As a matter of fact, he blamed the Israelites. LOL!!!

It's highly unfair that you didn't mention the fact that the Israelite MEN pursued the Midianite women. Now whose fault was that? Why did a supposed "all-knowing" god set up camp right next to people who didn't worship the way he wanted his people too? It's obvious that he was looking for a reason to attack them, take their land, kill their men, women and children, while keeping the 20,000 virgins for their own leisure and pleasure.

In addition to the above, wasn't Moses once taken in by the Midianites when he escaped Egypt? Wasn't his OWN god about to KILL him and it took a Midianite woman to save his life from his OWN violent god? Yes.
This same Moses turns around and attacks the very people who saved his life and tries to exterminate them. How low-down can one get?

What is clear is that you have a carnal mind and you don't understand, as noted in Romans 8:7. Moses failed to enter the Promised Land because of his disobedience and Joshua failed to drive out the Canaanites. Paul speaks of himself and his own struggles. On the other hand, Enoch pleased God so well that he walked right on out of this earthly existence. Once again, having the Holy Spirit does not mean that a person will obey or get things right all of the time. I agree with Paul, but you do not understand either of us.

What is it that I missed in Romans 8:7? Didn't it CLEARLY state that the carnal mind couldn't keep the commandments? Yes, it did. Paul didn't say that HE was the ONLY one who couldn't keep the commandments, he said "THE" carnal mind couldn't do it and neither could anyone else's carnal mind, not just his.
It's obvious that you let those verses (Romans 8:6-7) slip by your memory banks.
As far as Moses, Joshua and Enochs are concerned, are you saying that they DIDN'T have the holy spirit?
Simply put, the reason the Israeites couldn't obey their bipolar god is because they didn't have his holy spirit. Thank goodness these stories are just that....."stories".

You are reminding me more and more of why things are written down. What I did say was

A loving God allowed a faithless and disobedient generation to die in the wilderness while demonstrating to those coming generations His faithfulness. This built faith for those coming generations to trust him amid the adversity that they would face in conquering the Land of Promise. A very loving thing for Him to do.​

I want to make sure that you get it this time. The faithless and disobedient generation died in the wilderness without entering Canaan. The coming generations (the youngsters who came out of Egypt and the offspring born during the wilderness travels) learned about the power and faithfulness of God through the experiences of those wanderings. All of the "long-term" stuff comes from YOUR own posts and YOUR own mind. Solomon, David, et. al., were hundreds of years later.

Again you're dodging my points. What generations were faithful after Moses and Joshua? As soon as Joshua died, not long afterwards, the people went astray. There was no long-term faithfulness after him as shown in the following verses....
Joshua 2:8-10....And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash. And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.

Where are these many generations of faithfulness that you mentioned? That's it, there aren't any. Eventhough this OT god threatened to kill off his people, that still didn't stop them from turning elsewhere.

I asked them this: "What was being avenged by Israel Numbers 31:1-2?" Then we discussed it. Later I asked: "Why were the virgins kept and all of the other Midianites killed?" Then we discussed it. We don't do things in a vacuum. If it is in the scripture, we make a point of examining it to the best of our ability and with the help of our Paraclete.

What did they say about the virgins? Surely they HAD to know why they were the ONLY ONES kept alive? Did you tell them why the virgins were kept alive? Invite me one day and I'LL tell them. They wanted to have sex with them and possibly reproduce. Why else would grown men want virgins?

I have not avoided the subject at all. I have delineated why the concept of a "just war" is oxymoronic. Killing and murder is going to occur in war. The Israelites did it; the fill-in-the-blank'ites did it and it will continue. It is inherent in war. You don't like that and I don't either. I choose to understand it; you don't seem to get that. See my comment in the previous post about you not being able to separate the 10 commandments from war.

This god of the OT had the entire vacant lands of the desert to work with, yet he CHOSE to locate his people right next to folks who were doing their own thing and practicing their own religions. Why would he knowingly move his people in the middle of pagan territory and NOT expect them to learn of their ways? Why would he intentionally move his people next to "pagans" knowing the men would be enticed by their women? None of this makes ANY sense at all, unless you're psychotic and a poor tactician to boot.
This OT god HAD TO KNOW that this would eventually lead to problems and possibly violence.
This shows that this god craved violence, murder, killing, thievery and slavery.

Dacon, you keep trying to make excuses for this OT god, but your excuses keep falling apart right before your very eyes.

 

[JayRob]

Jay, this one is too easy-even for me.

Just because you have the names along the river is no more true evidence than the bible you continually try to deflate. those names could too actually be the result of copied names and stories passed on from one generation to another.
The fact that you even call them native americans tells me that your train of thought is based on the western civilization train of thought. we all know the real truth about history books, and those artifacts (yeah right) were designed to make them appear to as primative as possible and to suggest that the whites were way smarter and more advanced than the "native americans"...lingustic evidence? c'mon son.....

First of all I said all things "combined". You singled out one item out of the several I named.
As far as the term "native American", it's the accepted term. It's better than calling them Indians. They were native to this continent before Europeans, so what are you talking about? What would you call them?

Artifacts, history books, stories from the natives themselves, names of rivers and landmarks, linguistics, etc are what we have? Are you saying that NONE of the aforementioned are credible when combined with other information?

Archaeologists have been using these methods for decades in unearthing ancient history and providing evidence of specific cultures around the world. Now you're saying they're useless? Are you a certified archaeologist?
Do you have anything better to offer?

 

[dacontinent]

Those chapters still don't answer the question as to why Israel attacked the Midianites beforehand.
Wasn't it the Israelites who decided to move NEXT to the Midianites. Why would their god locate them NEXT TO these pagan folks if he didn't have the sense to know what their practices were like BEFORE moving them there? That was stupid to begin with. That's like me moving next to a neighbor with a nasty yard, then getting upset with him because his yard is nasty. I knew that BEFORE I moved next to him, so I should take some of the blame. The OT god took no blame at all. As a matter of fact, he blamed the Israelites. LOL!!!
It's highly unfair that you didn't mention the fact that the Israelite MEN pursued the Midianite women. Now whose fault was that? Why did a supposed "all-knowing" god set up camp right next to people who didn't worship the way he wanted his people too? It's obvious that he was looking for a reason to attack them, take their land, kill their men, women and children, while keeping the 20,000 virgins for their own leisure and pleasure.

In addition to the above, wasn't Moses once taken in by the Midianites when he escaped Egypt? Wasn't his OWN god about to KILL him and it took a Midianite woman to save his life from his OWN violent god? Yes.
This same Moses turns around and attacks the very people who saved his life and tries to exterminate them. How low-down can one get?
...

When my children were ages 3 & 1, we would visit other people in their homes. My children sat up straight, kept quiet, and made no attempts at even approaching the finery of the homes that we visited. Our hosts would marvel at this and asked how it was possible. The answer was that we practiced obedience at home, so it would not matter much when we went somewhere else because the expectation and behavior would be the same. I sent my children away to college on that same basic premise. One of them mimicked what was taught and the other didn't. Why? They made their own choices and enjoyed/endured the consequences. God did the same thing with Israel and the Midianites.

In the case of the Midianites, they were not ordinary pagans. Midian was a child of Abraham born of of Keturah, who married Abraham AFTER Sarah died. Had all of the knowledge of the Abrahamic covenant that Israel had yet this group (a separate group from Jethro's clan) embraced pagan practices. Being kinfolk, they should have embraced Israel or at least left them alone. Instead they knowingly enticed Israel into their pagan practices. God chided His chosen first; then He went after the Midianites.

What is it that I missed in Romans 8:7? Didn't it CLEARLY state that the carnal mind couldn't keep the commandments? Yes, it did. Paul didn't say that HE was the ONLY one who couldn't keep the commandments, he said "THE" carnal mind couldn't do it and neither could anyone else's carnal mind, not just his.
It's obvious that you let those verses (Romans 8:6-7) slip by your memory banks.
As far as Moses, Joshua and Enochs are concerned, are you saying that they DIDN'T have the holy spirit?
Simply put, the reason the Israeites couldn't obey their bipolar god is because they didn't have his holy spirit. Thank goodness these stories are just that....."stories"...

So, what one has to do in order to obey is to not be carnally minded. Simple.

No...I am not saying that Moses/Joshua/Enoch didn't have the Holy Spirit. There were miraculous things done through them. Those things were free to be done through them because of their obedience. Some things were done through them in spite of their disobedience.

Again you're dodging my points. What generations were faithful after Moses and Joshua? As soon as Joshua died, not long afterwards, the people went astray. There was no long-term faithfulness after him as shown in the following verses....
Joshua 2:8-10....And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. And they buried him in the border of his inheritance in Timnathheres, in the mount of Ephraim, on the north side of the hill Gaash. And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel....

I'm dodging?? :vomit: :noidea: We were having an exchange about the generations in the wilderness and Promised Land and you skipped several hundred years to Solomon and after. Now you ask about the generations after Moses and Joshua without discussing the generations OF Moses and Joshua - the generations that we were focusing on in the first place. At least you are moving closer. I will be here when you get back.

What did they say about the virgins? Surely they HAD to know why they were the ONLY ONES kept alive? Did you tell them why the virgins were kept alive? Invite me one day and I'LL tell them. They wanted to have sex with them and possibly reproduce. Why else would grown men want virgins?
...

I didn't have to tell them. They told me. They are good students who STUDY before they come to class. You are welcome to come at any time and share what you will.

They told me all the things that I have shared with you in this thread about the relationship between the two people groups ... and more.

This god of the OT had the entire vacant lands of the desert to work with, yet he CHOSE to locate his people right next to folks who were doing their own thing and practicing their own religions. Why would he knowingly move his people in the middle of pagan territory and NOT expect them to learn of their ways? Why would he intentionally move his people next to "pagans" knowing the men would be enticed by their women? None of this makes ANY sense at all, unless you're psychotic and a poor tactician to boot.
This OT god HAD TO KNOW that this would eventually lead to problems and possibly violence.
This shows that this god craved violence, murder, killing, thievery and slavery.

Dacon, you keep trying to make excuses for this OT god, but your excuses keep falling apart right before your very eyes.

I gave you the example of my own children above. They were not unique. I know plenty of children from families who behave in similar fashion.

I have a dog that loves to bark at and chase the neighbors' cats as they roam through our yard. I sometimes take her outside with me when I know the cats are active. I give her two words of instruction: sit quiet. She doesn't move nor make a sound. I don't beat her and I don't give her treats. She simply respects my authority.

24,000 Israelites disobeyed. Millions more obeyed. It was an austere lesson, but a valuable one. I make no excuses for God. He stands alone. He doesn't need Me, but He surely wants me for His own...and you, too.

 

[JayRob]

When my children were ages 3 & 1, we would visit other people in their homes....
One of them mimicked what was taught and the other didn't. Why? They made their own choices and enjoyed/endured the consequences. God did the same thing with Israel and the Midianites.

In the case of the Midianites, they were not ordinary pagans. Midian was a child of Abraham born of of Keturah, who married Abraham AFTER Sarah died. Had all of the knowledge of the Abrahamic covenant that Israel had yet this group (a separate group from Jethro's clan) embraced pagan practices. Being kinfolk, they should have embraced Israel or at least left them alone. Instead they knowingly enticed Israel into their pagan practices. God chided His chosen first; then He went after the Midianites.

Excuses, excuses, excuses. Were the people you took your children to see practicing witchcraft? Were they practicing worshipping other gods? Were they practicing human sacrifcie? If they were, would you have taken your children into such an environment? Nine times out of ten, you wouldn't have. This Old Testament god, seemed to have no vision, no scruples to realize what was going to happen if he had relocated his people into such an environment. Had he not learned from the example of Lot and his family hundreds of years before? Had he not learned from Joseph's family after they relocated to Egypt? It's obvious that he hadn't.

This OT god was intentionally inviting his people to be influenced by known pagan practices. The average intelligent person )even if they can't afford it), wants his family to be in a pure environment, a non-threatening environment, an environment that was wholesome, yet this god sent his people into the worst of situations and expected them to come out unscathed. How ludricous and illogical was that? An all-knowing omnipotent god would NEVER do such a thing, this is another reason I know the bible is nothing more than man-made jargon. This is something that a parent would do whose verbally abusive, emotionally abusive and physically abusive. While you're at it, throw in sexually abusive as well due to the law of circumcision, the cutting off of a baby's foreskin, which is one of the most sensitive parts of the body. This is the type of parent this god reminds me of, yet people here are trying to defend him with all their heart and mind.

So, what one has to do in order to obey is to not be carnally minded. Simple.

You still don't get it do you, then again, maybe you do but don't want to admit that you get it just to save face. According to your fiction book, humans are born carnal. In other words, without the help of this sky god, man cannot overcome Satan alone, so he needs the help of the holy spirit. The Israeites were never offered such, nevertheless their god expected them to still summon up the strength to overcome Satan.
Again I say, if they could've overcome Satan WITHOUT the assistance of some holy spirit, what was the purpose of it to begin with? It would've been useless. If the Israelites could conquer sin just by pure willpower and fear of their sky god, what would be the purpose of Paul saying that he couldn't obey without the holy spirit? It seems to me that you're calling Paul a liar.

No...I am not saying that Moses/Joshua/Enoch didn't have the Holy Spirit. There were miraculous things done through them. Those things were free to be done through them because of their obedience. Some things were done through them in spite of their disobedience.

Why didn't this sky god give this holy spirit to all of the Israelites? Why did he show favoritism to only a handful of people, yet killed off the others for not accomplishing something he HAD to know that they couldn't? Why give it to Moses, Joshua and Enoch, but not to the rest?

The part about miracles means nothing when it comes to a holy spirit because the pagans practiced miracles as well.

I'm dodging?? We were having an exchange about the generations in the wilderness and Promised Land and you skipped several hundred years to Solomon and after. Now you ask about the generations after Moses and Joshua without discussing the generations OF Moses and Joshua - the generations that we were focusing on in the first place. At least you are moving closer. I will be here when you get back.

You were the one to bring up the following generations after Moses and Joshua. Seems like the sky god's plans didn't work out, so he decided to scrap it by killing off his own people. The fact of the matter is that the Israelites didn't want to be scared into obedience. That's exactly what this OT god tried to do. He failed then and he's failing now.
Look at the entire world of Christianity. Are they afraid of an eternal hell-fire staring them in the face? No. Christians have some of the worst behaviors in the world. Even those of the Muslim religion practice better obedience than Christians and so do those of other religions. According to the statistics, even atheists have a better divorce rate and sense of morality than most Christians. Why? Because Christians don't fear a hell-fire and brimstone god, that's why.

I didn't have to tell them. They told me. They are good students who STUDY before they come to class. You are welcome to come at any time and share what you will.

They told me all the things that I have shared with you in this thread about the relationship between the two people groups ... and more.

You still didn't say WHAT they SPECIFICALLY talked about as to WHY the virgins were kept alive and not the others. What did they specifically say about the virgin women?

I gave you the example of my own children above. They were not unique. I know plenty of children from families who behave in similar fashion.

I have a dog that loves to bark at and chase the neighbors' cats as they roam through our yard. I sometimes take her outside with me when I know the cats are active. I give her two words of instruction: sit quiet. She doesn't move nor make a sound. I don't beat her and I don't give her treats. She simply respects my authority.

24,000 Israelites disobeyed. Millions more obeyed. It was an austere lesson, but a valuable one. I make no excuses for God. He stands alone. He doesn't need Me, but He surely wants me for His own...and you, too.

Millions more obeyed?! If they did, why did he have to kill off 90 percent of the people? Why did the book of the Judges have to be written? Why did it say that the people went astray after Joshua died? Fear only works for a SHORT period of time with any people. The same goes for the people lead by the sky god.

Your examples were not very good ones at all. One thing is that you didn't intentionally place your children amongst possibly the worst degenerates of society and then leave them there to fend for themselves like this sky god did.

Any sane parent knows that the chances of their children disobeying depends a lot on the environment. Obviously the sky god of the OT had no such knowledge.

You don't have to make excuses for your god (eventhough that's all you've been doing), the excuses you'd try and make in this case would be useless anyhow because they wouldn't make sense.
No truly loving parent would intentionally place their children in the WORST of environments when they could've placed them elsewhere. No parent would intentionally do such and expect their children to come out unscathed, then kill them off for being influenced, no one except the "loving" sky god of the Old Testament.

I'm almost sure that you wouldn't follow such an example, at least I HOPE you wouldn't.

 

[Dr H..]

Don't know where this came from, but I'll answer anyhow....

The question was asked again, because you have continued to ask for proof / evidence of the Exodus. As I have previously asked, what type of evidence you are seeking.

The Hebrews, like the Cherokee has an oral tradition, unlike the Hebrews 99.99% of the history of the Cherokees and other Indian Nations was not composed by them, but by Europeans and was written within the past 100 years or less. I have some of the history of my great-great grandmother [Cherokee Indian, born and reared on the Little Tennessee River] I learned it from my great aunt’s [oral tradition – same as parts of the bible]. However, the area she lived, cease to exist and there is not one single sign that the Cherokees ever hunted or lived there.

Do you not have “linguistic evidence, history booksâ€￾ as it relates to the Exodus? The problem is that you do not agree with the “History Bookâ€￾ what was passed down generation after generation among the Hebrews is no difference as similar information was passed down to me from my great aunt’s and I have a picture of her as well as some of her daughters. I would not have known that her family was part of the Trail of Tears, unless I was told.

Questions: What’s the difference between my great aunts passing down information to me and the Hebrew passing down information to their ancestors?

I am sure in your family, there are stories that has been pass down for several generations. Do you question the information and its reliability?

 

[Attack Dog]

JayRob,

It is not uncommon for people to tell stories and add on to make themselves seem more important than what they really are. Nor is it uncommon for people to create justification for the evils they do. "Thou shalt not tempt the lord thy GOD", but that is what Jews, Christians, and Muslims have continually done.

It is sad that man cannot just tell the truth. We always have to put our spin on things.

 

[dacontinent]

JayRob...Let me do this in list form in hopes that you get it this time.

1. We took our kids into environments that would have been very enticing of most kids to touch and handle things of a delicate nature. The thing that caused others to marvel was that our children made no advancement toward those things; they did not interrupt conversations; we did not send them into another room; we did not bring along other toys for them to play with. Why did this work for us? Because we practiced those things at home and were able to expect and receive the same no matter where we went.
2. Humans are born carnal. Humans have a choice of remaining that way or taking on the mind of Christ. Once enlightened, they have a choice of walking in the mind of Christ or in carnality. Israel was chosen by God through God's promise to Abraham. Once enlightened, they had the choice of obeying God through the Word rendered through His prophets or living in carnality. The empowerment of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one receives the WORD. The Holy Spirit gives supernatural empowerment; that is His purpose. We don't conquer sin through willpower; we conquer sin through our acceptance of the Word - both Christ in the flesh and the scriptures (Jn 5:39). Satan cannot handle the blood nor the authority of the Word, so when we choose to submit ourselves to them He cannot handle us. The Holy Spirit is our Paraclete and helps us to use those elements to conquer demonic influences.
   
   Many followed God in the OT when the miracles were fresh in their minds. Many followed God in the NT when the miracles were fresh in their minds. Many follow the Holy Spirit today when the miracles are fresh in their minds...but fall away at the slightest distraction or inactivity. The pattern here is that miracles are not what produces faith. Faith comes by continually hearing and doing what God says (Rom 10:17).
3. In the exodus I was discussing the generations of those who participated in it. I am still waiting to discuss them while you traipse off to the development of the kingdoms et. al. I will be here when you get back.
4. My class said of the Midianite virgins:
   • They were relatives.
   • The virgins had not been prostituted in worship.
   • They would not grow up to be warriors and fight against the Israelites
   • They could be used as servants.
   • They would have the opportunity to rejoin the other Midianites of Jethro's clan and enjoy the Promise as Abraham's seed.
   • And a few other things that I can't recall just now.
5. I intentially took my children out of Christian school and put them in public school so they would have a broader sphere of influence with their peers in the WORST of environments and I expected them to come out unscathed. They did exceptionally well, especially since I walked them through, just as God offered to do with Israel. Environment does influence a lot of things. Godly parenting is far more influential than environment. We follow His example and the results turn around to bless us.

 

[JayRob]

The question was asked again, because you have continued to ask for proof / evidence of the Exodus. As I have previously asked, what type of evidence you are seeking.

The Hebrews, like the Cherokee has an oral tradition, unlike the Hebrews 99.99% of the history of the Cherokees and other Indian Nations was not composed by them, but by Europeans and was written within the past 100 years or less. I have some of the history of my great-great grandmother [Cherokee Indian, born and reared on the Little Tennessee River] I learned it from my great aunt’s [oral tradition – same as parts of the bible]. However, the area she lived, cease to exist and there is not one single sign that the Cherokees ever hunted or lived there.

Do you not have “linguistic evidence, history books” as it relates to the Exodus? The problem is that you do not agree with the “History Book” what was passed down generation after generation among the Hebrews is no difference as similar information was passed down to me from my great aunt’s and I have a picture of her as well as some of her daughters. I would not have known that her family was part of the Trail of Tears, unless I was told.

Questions: What’s the difference between my great aunts passing down information to me and the Hebrew passing down information to their ancestors?

I am sure in your family, there are stories that has been pass down for several generations. Do you question the information and its reliability?

Dr. H, you and Apoquelypse conveniently left out one major characteristic from your posts and that's ARTIFACTS and archaeological findings. Why both of you chose to leave such hard evidence out of your equation and discussion is beyond me. There's ample evidence left by certain native American tribes that's been unearthed by archaeologists and geologists. I could go down the list but you can do that on your own.

For you to even think about comparing evidence left by native Americans versus the Hebrews is a comparison that's really no comparison at all.
Ample archaeological evidence has unquestionably proven the existence of certain native American tribes and their history.

Archaeological findings in support of a Hebrew exodus is practically zero. That's not me talking, those are the findings of Jewish archaeologists researchers (and others), who've been trying their hardest to find evidence to support their Torah. They finally had to admit that there is none.

Again, there's ample evidence to support the history of certain native American tribes. There's no evidence to support a Hebrew exodus.

 

[JayRob]

JayRob...Let me do this in list form in hopes that you get it this time.

[*]We took our kids into environments that would have been very enticing of most kids to touch and handle things of a delicate nature....

Dacontinent, that's all and good about your children and I salute you for that, but it continues to baffle me that you're trying to justify a bungled tactical error made by the Hebrew god.
Your example is in no way an accurate comparison of moving 2-3 million people in the midst of entire cultures who had practices that were supposedly much different than their own.
Practices of human sacrifice, worship of other gods, sexual practices, marital practices, eating habits, religious rituals, etc., etc., all were much different than the Hebrews had supposedly seen.

Why the Hebrew sky god chose to relocate them in the midst of such an environment, then had the nerve to kill them off for learning of their ways is beyond logic and the height of injustice.

For you to try and compare your situation of 10 or fewer children to that of hundreds of thousands of Hebrew children possibly being influenced by possibly hundreds of thousands of Canaanite, Midianite, Philistine, Hittite children and adults is nowhere near a decent comparison.

The stories of the exodus and the tactical actions of their god make no sense at all. He had the ENTIRE desert to relocate them, while at the same time showing his power by making the desert blossom and his people prosperous. Nations would've flocked to them seeking after him.
Instead, he made war, stole land, killed innocent men, women, children and babies in an effort to make Israel a "shining" example?! Any leader with ANY type of commonsense would have to know that such a tactic would only create perpetual wars. Violence begets violence.
Guess what happened to the Israelites? They had perpetual wars and were continually met with violence.

Humans are born carnal. Humans have a choice of remaining that way or taking on the mind of Christ. Once enlightened, they have a choice of walking in the mind of Christ or in carnality. Israel was chosen by God through God's promise to Abraham. Once enlightened, they had the choice of obeying God through the Word rendered through His prophets or living in carnality.

Dacon, the Israelites were never offered the holy spirit. This is why Paul said in Hebrews that the old covenant was FLAWED. Paul admitted that it was flawed due to the fact that the offering of the holy spirit was not included in the old covenant.

If the Israelites had agreed in their minds to follow after their sky god, which they did for a while, they still didn't have the holy spirit as that "helper" to sustain them. Without it, it would be imppossible for them to sustain their worship.
Instead of supporting the Israelites with the holy spirit, their sky god tried to sustain them with physical bread from the sky and physical water from rocks.
Why else did this same god say that "man shall not live by bread alone?" He obviously knew that man couldn't obey him without the holy spirit. If he knew this, why in the world did he order his people to do so? There's no justification for such nonsense and you've provided no logical rebuttal against such an order, only excuses, excuses and more excuses.

The empowerment of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one receives the WORD. The Holy Spirit gives supernatural empowerment; that is His purpose. We don't conquer sin through willpower; we conquer sin through our acceptance of the Word - both Christ in the flesh and the scriptures (Jn 5:39). Satan cannot handle the blood nor the authority of the Word, so when we choose to submit ourselves to them He cannot handle us. The Holy Spirit is our Paraclete and helps us to use those elements to conquer demonic influences.

That's my point. After the Israelites received the word or the law, that was it. There was no coming of their "helper" in the form of the holy spirit to help them overcome satan.
You just mentioned the importance of the holy spirit, but for some odd reason, you can't seem to bring yourself to admit that the OT god gave an impossible and unreachable command to the Israelites, a command he KNEW they wouldn't be able to carry out. You all but spelled it out above.

Many followed God in the OT when the miracles were fresh in their minds. Many followed God in the NT when the miracles were fresh in their minds. Many follow the Holy Spirit today when the miracles are fresh in their minds...but fall away at the slightest distraction or inactivity. The pattern here is that miracles are not what produces faith. Faith comes by continually hearing and doing what God says (Rom 10:17).

In the bible, miracles didn't convert people and they certainly don't help to sustain them. It might grant them temporary reasons to "believe", but that's it.
Simon Magus, when he met Paul practiced miracles, but that didn't help him. He supposedly was a false prophet and tried to BUY the holy spirit with money. He was rebuked by Paul. He witnessed Paul seeing miracles but that didn't help him.
According to the New Testament, it was the holy spirit that sustained the people. If miracles sustained folks, there'd be no need for any holy spirit.

CONTINUED.....

 

[JayRob]

cont'd......

In the exodus I was discussing the generations of those who participated in it. I am still waiting to discuss them while you traipse off to the development of the kingdoms et. al. I will be here when you get back.

You implied immediate generations and I simply showed you that as soon as Joshua passed on, the Israelites immediately began to follow after other gods. You can blame the Israelites all you want to, but for you to sit here and refuse to admit that their being placed in such an environment amongst "pagans" was a tactical error by their sky god, is disingenuous and unfair at best.

My class said of the Midianite virgins:

[*]They were relatives.

So why kill off your own flesh and blood relatives like that with such callousness? Nothing but pure evil and pure brainwashing.

[*]The virgins had not been prostituted in worship.

What does that have to do with anything, ESPECIALLY if the men weren't going to have sexual relations with them in the first place? They still knew how to worship their pagan god whether they had had sex or not. That makes no sense.

[*]They would not grow up to be warriors and fight against the Israelites

So why did the Israelites attack them in the first place KNOWING they'd have to engage in genocide and knowing that this would cause perpetual wars such as what's going on between the Israelis and Palestinians.

[*]They could be used as servants.

The women who had had sex once or twice could've been used as servants as well, due to the fact that they were more experienced.
It's obvious you didn't mention that there was the POSSIBILITY they could be used as sex slaves, but it HAD to cross your mind and the minds of your students.

[*]They would have the opportunity to rejoin the other Midianites of Jethro's clan and enjoy the Promise as Abraham's seed.

Huh?! Are you serious? Their mother was slaughtered right before their eyes, their father was slaughtered, their little brothers were slaughtered, their friends were slaughtered, their relatives were slaughtered, their culture was destroyed, yet somehow you've fixed your brain to believe that some "Promised Land" would be enough to appease them and help them forget the atrocities and slavery they would HAVE to endure? Are you serious?!
Nevermind that the Israelite women had as their destiny a life of being servants and possibly sex slaves, for the pleasures of the killers of their loved ones.
That's like saying that Africans would forget about the death, invasions and atrocities committed by Europeans and made well once they reached the material riches of America.
This is exactly what humans do to try and justify something they KNOW in their hearts is wrong. They make excuse after excuse, no matter how unrealistic the belief.

Like I said earlier, it takes religion to make a normal and ratonal person abnormal and irrational. If anyone doubts this, re-read this post.

I intentially took my children out of Christian school and put them in public school so they would have a broader sphere of influence with their peers in the WORST of environments and I expected them to come out unscathed. They did exceptionally well, especially since I walked them through, just as God offered to do with Israel. Environment does influence a lot of things. Godly parenting is far more influential than environment. We follow His example and the results turn around to bless us.

Again, that's fine and dandy, but your microscopic "personal" example in no way compares to the situation forced upon the Israelites by their sky god, none whatsoever.
Were your children ordered to take up arms to kill every male teacher, every female teacher, every male student and every female student who wasn't a virgin? Where they ordered to then take possession of their property and keep the virgins as servants for their own pleasure?
How can you even fathom in your mind that your children's example is anywhere near being a type of the examples experienced by the Israelites on command by their sky god?

This is why more folks are turning away from such irrational teachings and rightly so. They're learning and beginning to "think" for themselves.

Many are starting to interpret the bible as not being literal. Why?because they KNOW that it's littered with murder, death, rape, wars, violence and farfetched, fairy-tale type stories that no one in his/her right mind would believe. They can't take the uninhibited violence and murder, but in order to hold on to their "precious" religion, they downsize it by saying "it's not all literal", so that it won't seem to be so bad. It is what it is though.

 

[Dr H..]

Archaeological findings in support of a Hebrew exodus is practically zero.

And do you know why; because when they left Egypt, they left with practically nothing Hebraic. I bet the few odds and ends they took with them was Egyptian at most they took with them a few animals, clothes maybe a few Egyptian clay pots for cooking. They did not have an opportunity to take the stove, kitchen sink and other “household itemsâ€￾ because Moses had reminded his people that they had to leave in a hurry, and that their bread dough would not have time to rise. They were therefore told to make 'unleavened' bread (bread made without yeast) To commemorate this, unleavened bread is eaten by Jewish people during the Passover festival.

You continue to forget the Hebrews were nomadic in nature. Although they had been in Egypt 430 years – more or less.

So what artifacts are you looking for.