JayRob
TigaPaw
RB, how can one have a conversation with Christ in hell if they're dead? Whose doing the talking and thinking? Scripture says the dead know nothing.
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Is Our Time To Go, Set ???
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RB, how can one have a conversation with Christ in hell if they're dead? Whose doing the talking and thinking? Scripture says the dead know nothing.
nevaehinvesting
Active Member
Those babies / children go to heaven, per scripture. Will explain later...
JayRob
TigaPaw
Please do.....
illinijag
Called to Serve
Please provide Book, Scripture, and Verse for that which is highlighted in red?
Good Day and God Bless
illinijag
Called to Serve
This is why I support your statement:
2 Samuel 12:23. But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
Good Day and God Bless
ROYAL BLUE
New Member
ROYAL BLUE
New Member
God is not the God of the dead, but the living....."All" souls go back to God after they die in the flesh. The flesh stays in the ground, but the intellect/soul goes back to God. There are two sides to heaven, and a gulf that separates the good side from the bad. The souls on both sides of heaven can see and hear each other, but they can't cross the gulf to get to the other side. God purposely separated the bad from the good and "all" must wait to judgment day. After judgment day, there won't be a bad side because the bad will be thrown into the lake of fire if they don't pass their test at the end of the Millenium.
You must separate the flesh from the soul and you will have a better understanding. Also, Paul clearly tells us that we have 2 bodies, and they are celestial and terrestrial. We are in the terrestrial body which is called the flesh. Christ showed the disciples what the celestial body looks like on the mount of transfiguration; Moses and Elijah appeared in their celestial body with Christ. If Moses and Elijah were dead, how could the disciples recognize them in their spiritual body? They were not dead and they proved it on the mount.........
JayRob
TigaPaw
Where does it say babies go to heaven? The verse seems to mean that the living person can go to the baby's gravesite, but the baby will no longer be able to come to him because it's deceased.
JayRob
TigaPaw
RB, I've heard this story time and again and it still doesn't make any sense. How can dead people cry out to one another? If they're dead, they're dead..... no ifs, ands or buts about it. You can't have it both ways.
If souls can cry out to God, regardless if they have a body or not, this tells me that they never died to begin with. Only a physical covering called a "body" died.
A body is only meant to be temporary to begin with, whereas the soul/spirit can't die. Regular fire certainly can't destroy spirit as some want to teach.
Those souls you mentioned are calling out to one another. They obviously have the ability to see, hear, speak, think or they wouldn't be calling out to relatives. They are not dead. Only their physical body is dead.
illinijag
Called to Serve
Based on your doctrine that you presented to me in the past and your belief in the Universal Creator (not in the true God, which consist of God the father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit).
You treat God's word as trash, which I will take no part of. So believe what you wish....
However, scripture does speak of your kind:
1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Matthew 7:6. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Your hope is in the God, You know NOT! It is my hope HE will save you!
illinijag
Called to Serve
I was hoping you would have listed other scriptures. I’ve taken a sabbatical to engage in lengthy debates so I will just make one statement. If Jesus saved people that are in hell, hell being their fate after their earthly tenure, such would not be consistent with:
Hebrews 9:27. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Mr. Royal Blue, I know in the past we have spent much time in heated debates. I would just ask that you not wholly trust commentaries or teachings you hear or even like but SUBJECT ALL THINGS TO SCRIPTURE.
Good Day and God Bless
ROYAL BLUE
New Member
Correct, only their earthly flesh body is corruptible, but their heavenly body is incorruptible. Remember, Paul makes it clear that we have 2 bodies and when we're done with the earthly body, our soul immediately steps into the heavenly body.
JayRob
TigaPaw
I don't recall ever calling the Bible trash. Those are your words.
I do recall stating that a loving Creator wouldn't authorize the killing of thousands and thousands of innocent people that he claimed to love. That's not my definition of what a loving Creator is.
For example, David authorized a census which God forbade. Instead of this God punishing David, he slaughtered 70,000 innocent men, women and children, while David was left alive.
Several times in scripture, populations of whole towns where ordered by a "loving" God to be slaughtered, massacred and pillaged. I simply refuse to believe that a loving God would authorize such unfairness and injustices to human beings he CLAIMS to love.
I do recall pointing out the dozens and dozens of scriptural contradictions that no one to this day has bothered to address. These contradictions could not have been authorized by an all knowing and responsible God.
I do recall stating that the Bible has copied teachings, writings and stories from earlier cultures regarding the doctrines of "The Trinity", the virgin birth, the Magi and Star, Christ's birth, his name, the name of his birthplace, etc., etc., etc.
If you can point out to me where I'm wrong in either case, please correct me so I will be all the wiser.
JayRob
TigaPaw
So, what's the purpose of the resurrection if we have a spiritual body that can, talk, see, hear and live forever? There's no need for a first or second resurrection. There's no need for a resurrection at all.
JayRob
TigaPaw
:lol::lol::lol::lol:
ROYAL BLUE
New Member
Yes, we have spent much time in heated debates, and that's why I posted the scripture supporting my statement........I didn't want you to think I made up Christ preaching and saving lost souls in hell.
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ROYAL BLUE
New Member
Are you talking about the "rapture theory"?
JayRob
TigaPaw
No. My question is "what's the need for a resurrection when our spirit/soul body never dies?"
illinijag
Called to Serve
At a men's class that I attend, a few weeks ago we discussed this matter thoroughly to the point of exhaustion. When I find time to put something together or find my notes, I will email them to you. There are many interpretations of those passages.
Also, you might consider Matthew 27:51-52, it may provides some insight to those scriptures.. specifically the Ephesian passage you mentioned.
Good Day and God Bless
dacontinent
Preacher
Your premise is that the 70,000 were innocent. There are several common views of the iniquity involved here. I am of the mind that God only authorized census for the purpose of making provision for his people - never for the purpose of apprising the magnitude of them.
David allowed someone who is not named to influence him to do it. Joab tried to advise him against it, but David's orders prevailed. That brings us to the people - who also knew that the people were not to be numbered for the magnitude of them - but they complied anyway. So, the whole of them incurred the wrath of God. God, then, having to do something about it, gave David three options.
2 Sam 24:13
13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.
13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me.
Knowing that judgement must come, David made the best appeal that he could ever conceive of: he went after God's mercy.
2 Sam 24:14-15
14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
15 So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beer-sheba seventy thousand men.
14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the Lord; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man.
15 So the Lord sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beer-sheba seventy thousand men.
It is the truth that in nearly every instance in life that innocent people die when iniquity incurs God's judgement. The decision of a loving God was to execute the least injurious form of judgement for the deed that was done by the people.
dacontinent
Preacher
The short and flippant answer is to be like Jesus.
Better said ... all of God's firstborn son is in heaven with Him. All of God's other sons (spirit, soul, and body) will be in heaven with him. All of those belonging to Satan will be in hell with him.
Resurrection is necessary so that our bodies can join us in eternity.
JayRob
TigaPaw
This still doesn't explain why David escaped the sword being that he was the leader and he authorized the census. It seems that you're giving David a "free pass" and blaming the very victims who paid with their lives.
The God of the Old Testament claims to be "no respecter of persons", but his actions of killing 70,000 people, while leaving the author of the "sin" alive and well says something else.
Anyhow, I could list dozens and dozens of unjust decisions made by this God of the Old Testament, especially against unborn children, young children, women and whole towns, eventhough the people were innocent.
JayRob
TigaPaw
Why does one need a body if he's going to be in a spiritual heaven? As we see in the New Testament, people in spirit form can see, hear, talk without having a physical body. Seems to me that having a physical body is of no use.
And if you're correct regarding firstborn sons being in heaven, again....why does there need to be a first resurrection if the firstborn are already in heaven as you mentioned?
Dr H..
Active Member
Hold up RB,
# 1 How can one convert to Christianity, if they are dead, because, to become a Christian there is a procedure.
Do a tad bit more research, did Jesus go to hell the answer is no! What does the bible teach? Understand the writers of the bible were more precise in their use of words than some of the transliterations
I Peter 4:6: There are two Greek words for the abode of the dead. Hell (Geenna “GK†is also called the lake of fire and the eternal fire) was made for the Devil and his followers (Matthew 25:41) and will be occupied by all the unrighteous after the last judgment (Revelation 19:20-21 and 20:10-15). There is no biblical evidence that anyone has gone there or will go there until after Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:11-16). And this includes Jesus Himself.
The other Greek word is Hadas [Hades]. This is the region of the dead. Before Jesus' ascension, the spirits of all people went to Hades [place of disembodied spirits, the saved and unsaved]. After His ascension, only the spirits of unbelievers go to Hades, while the spirits of believers go directly to be with the Lord [ “per se’] (2 Corinthians 5:1-8) or Abraham’s Bosom [typology of heaven], as the example of the Rich Man. Jesus entered into this region [Hadean World] after His crucifixion (Acts 2:25-31 / Psalm 16:9-10). Ephesians 4:8-10 says that Jesus, "had descended into the lower parts of the earth" Jesus' visit to Hades before His ascensionâ€. And Romans 10:7 Jesus in "the abyss" while He was among the dead. After the final judgment, Hades will be cast into Hell (Revelation 20:14). Therefore, Jesus descended into Hades but not into Hell."
I Peter 3:18-20, go back to 2:21-25 Peter mentioned Jesus' conduct during His passion (2:21-23), His death on the cross (2:24), and His ministry as the Shepherd and Guardian of our souls (2:24b-25).
In 3:18-22 he cited Jesus' resurrection and ascension into glory. Then Peter explains the meaning of Jesus' resurrection and exaltation not only for believers but also for the whole universe. Verse 3:18 "For [because of]" connects verses 18-22 with 13-17, but "Christ also" same as 2:21-25. Peter used these expressions to cite Jesus as an illustration of suffering (doing good is the point of in both passages).
The question is who were the Spirits he preaching to in Hadean (Prison) world was it those that were saved (OT Doctrine) or was it those that were lost (OT Doctrine) and what was the message being preched?
You stated that Christ was preaching, converting them to Christianity. Why would He do that, they died during the time of Noah.
The identity of the "spirits in prison" is somewhat difficult. The "spirits" describes human only one other place in the New Testament (Heb. 12:23), but evil spirit in (Matt. 10:1; Mark 1:27; 3:11; 5:13; 6:7: Luke 4:36; 6:18; Acts 5:16; Rev. 16:13.).
What did Peter said about the spirits to identify them? He said they are in prison (2 Pet. 2:4) and that they were disobedient in the days of Noah (20). These "spirits" were the unbelievers who disobeyed God in Noah's day by rejecting his (God via Noah) preaching.
He said the spirits of these unbelievers are in prison now (Sheol)
Noah was preaching a message that God had given him, and in this sense Jesus Christ spoke through Noah (2 Cor. 5:20). Like, Christ was speaking through Peter's readers to their unbelieving persecutors as they bore witness for Him in a hostile world.
So whatever Christ preached had to be what Noah preached and there is no support that Christ preached Christianity or how to become a Christian.
I Peter 4:6
Because everyone will give account of his life to God (5), Christians preach the gospel. Remember in Peter's day Christians had preached it to other Christians who had already died.
These Christians had experienced judgment for their sins by dying physically, they lived on in a new spiritual sphere of life since they were believers (3:18). Physical death is sin's last effect on believers during their earthly lives.
This verse by no means / no how / no way teach that after a person dies he or she will have a second chance to believe the gospel, that’s unscriptural and it’s just not true. If that was true (second chance) this would contradict Hebrews 9:27. "Peter does not say that the gospel is being preached even to the dead but was preached.
Ephesians 4:9-10
For Christ to have ascended to heaven He first had to descend to "the lower parts of the earth."
As it is written in the Greek Grammar, this has reference to Jesus' grave (genitive of possession) rather than to the earth (genitive of a position) or to Hades (genitive of comparison).
Children and Babies
There is not a lot bible on the two subjects, we can only answer about their destination based on what God has given us:
2 Sam. 12.19-23.
Genesis 18:25
Those who go to hell in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 are those who have deliberately disobeyed the gospel by refusing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Infants have not willfully disobeyed the gospel. Now Children “Age of Accountability†That not scriptural, if a child is able to comprehend right and wrong “base on the bible†then I would say they can be lost.
That’s why I cannot accept that a child can learn every song on radio and cannot learn the bible.
# 1 How can one convert to Christianity, if they are dead, because, to become a Christian there is a procedure.
Do a tad bit more research, did Jesus go to hell the answer is no! What does the bible teach? Understand the writers of the bible were more precise in their use of words than some of the transliterations
I Peter 4:6: There are two Greek words for the abode of the dead. Hell (Geenna “GK†is also called the lake of fire and the eternal fire) was made for the Devil and his followers (Matthew 25:41) and will be occupied by all the unrighteous after the last judgment (Revelation 19:20-21 and 20:10-15). There is no biblical evidence that anyone has gone there or will go there until after Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:11-16). And this includes Jesus Himself.
The other Greek word is Hadas [Hades]. This is the region of the dead. Before Jesus' ascension, the spirits of all people went to Hades [place of disembodied spirits, the saved and unsaved]. After His ascension, only the spirits of unbelievers go to Hades, while the spirits of believers go directly to be with the Lord [ “per se’] (2 Corinthians 5:1-8) or Abraham’s Bosom [typology of heaven], as the example of the Rich Man. Jesus entered into this region [Hadean World] after His crucifixion (Acts 2:25-31 / Psalm 16:9-10). Ephesians 4:8-10 says that Jesus, "had descended into the lower parts of the earth" Jesus' visit to Hades before His ascensionâ€. And Romans 10:7 Jesus in "the abyss" while He was among the dead. After the final judgment, Hades will be cast into Hell (Revelation 20:14). Therefore, Jesus descended into Hades but not into Hell."
I Peter 3:18-20, go back to 2:21-25 Peter mentioned Jesus' conduct during His passion (2:21-23), His death on the cross (2:24), and His ministry as the Shepherd and Guardian of our souls (2:24b-25).
In 3:18-22 he cited Jesus' resurrection and ascension into glory. Then Peter explains the meaning of Jesus' resurrection and exaltation not only for believers but also for the whole universe. Verse 3:18 "For [because of]" connects verses 18-22 with 13-17, but "Christ also" same as 2:21-25. Peter used these expressions to cite Jesus as an illustration of suffering (doing good is the point of in both passages).
The question is who were the Spirits he preaching to in Hadean (Prison) world was it those that were saved (OT Doctrine) or was it those that were lost (OT Doctrine) and what was the message being preched?
You stated that Christ was preaching, converting them to Christianity. Why would He do that, they died during the time of Noah.
The identity of the "spirits in prison" is somewhat difficult. The "spirits" describes human only one other place in the New Testament (Heb. 12:23), but evil spirit in (Matt. 10:1; Mark 1:27; 3:11; 5:13; 6:7: Luke 4:36; 6:18; Acts 5:16; Rev. 16:13.).
What did Peter said about the spirits to identify them? He said they are in prison (2 Pet. 2:4) and that they were disobedient in the days of Noah (20). These "spirits" were the unbelievers who disobeyed God in Noah's day by rejecting his (God via Noah) preaching.
He said the spirits of these unbelievers are in prison now (Sheol)
Noah was preaching a message that God had given him, and in this sense Jesus Christ spoke through Noah (2 Cor. 5:20). Like, Christ was speaking through Peter's readers to their unbelieving persecutors as they bore witness for Him in a hostile world.
So whatever Christ preached had to be what Noah preached and there is no support that Christ preached Christianity or how to become a Christian.
I Peter 4:6
Because everyone will give account of his life to God (5), Christians preach the gospel. Remember in Peter's day Christians had preached it to other Christians who had already died.
These Christians had experienced judgment for their sins by dying physically, they lived on in a new spiritual sphere of life since they were believers (3:18). Physical death is sin's last effect on believers during their earthly lives.
This verse by no means / no how / no way teach that after a person dies he or she will have a second chance to believe the gospel, that’s unscriptural and it’s just not true. If that was true (second chance) this would contradict Hebrews 9:27. "Peter does not say that the gospel is being preached even to the dead but was preached.
Ephesians 4:9-10
For Christ to have ascended to heaven He first had to descend to "the lower parts of the earth."
As it is written in the Greek Grammar, this has reference to Jesus' grave (genitive of possession) rather than to the earth (genitive of a position) or to Hades (genitive of comparison).
Children and Babies
There is not a lot bible on the two subjects, we can only answer about their destination based on what God has given us:
2 Sam. 12.19-23.
Genesis 18:25
Those who go to hell in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 are those who have deliberately disobeyed the gospel by refusing to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Infants have not willfully disobeyed the gospel. Now Children “Age of Accountability†That not scriptural, if a child is able to comprehend right and wrong “base on the bible†then I would say they can be lost.
That’s why I cannot accept that a child can learn every song on radio and cannot learn the bible.
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