Historical Mission of HBCU's

[jsupop33]

Spin-off of GR's thread on the sportsboard. Many people argue against HBCU's having selective admissions because it goes against the historical mission but if you dig, that really was not the historical mission. Early on, our schools were geared towards the brightest AA kids. Yes, we went after poor and underprivileged (most AA's were and a lot still are) but we were not after the dumb and unmotivated. Somehow, we have shifted to believe that our mission is to be the school of last resort for AA kids. When did this switch happen and why do some people still hold on to it? Look at how Southern's student body has improved with closed admissions. TxSO's will see improvements too. Honestly, asking a kid to have a 2.5 or 2. 7 and a 16 ACT score is not too much.

 

[jag4life]

Spin-off of GR's thread on the sportsboard. Many people argue against HBCU's having selective admissions because it goes against the historical mission but if you dig, that really was not the historical mission. Early on, our schools were geared towards the brightest AA kids. Yes, we went after poor and underprivileged (most AA's were and a lot still are) but we were not after the dumb and unmotivated. Somehow, we have shifted to believe that our mission is to be the school of last resort for AA kids. When did this switch happen and why do some people still hold on to it? Look at how Southern's student body has improved with closed admissions. TxSO's will see improvements too. Honestly, asking a kid to have a 2.5 or 2. 7 and a 16 ACT score is not too much.

The question is, when did schools change TO open admissions, if they weren't originally that way?

 

[TSUGIRL07]

Ironically, I was re-reading the Talented Tenth last night for a paper I am working on and came across somethings that I thought were rather interesting as it relates to HBCUs and the purpose of education for African Americans:

"Now the training of men is a difficult and intricate task. Its technique is a matter for educational experts, but its object is for the vision of seers. If we make money the object of man-training, we shall develop money-makers but not necessarily men; if we make technical skill the object of education, we may possess artisans but not, in nature, men. Men we shall have only as we make manhood the object of the work of the schools--intelligence, broad sympathy, knowledge of the world that was and is, and of the relation of men to it--this is the curriculum of that Higher Education which must underlie true life. On this foundation we may build bread winning, skill of hand and quickness of brain, with never a fear lest the child and man mistake the means of living for the object of life"....

"You misjudge us because you do not know us. From the very first it has been the educated and intelligent of the ***** people that have led and elevated the mass, and the sole obstacles that nullified and retarded their efforts were slavery and race prejudice; for what is slavery but the legalized survival of the unfit and the nullification of the work of natural internal leadership?".....

"How then shall the leaders of a struggling people be trained and the hands of the risen few strengthened? There can be but one answer: The best and most capable of their youth must be schooled in the colleges and universities of the land. We will not quarrel as to just what the university of the ***** should teach or how it should teach it--I willingly admit that each soul and each race-soul needs its own peculiar curriculum. But this is true: A university is a human invention for the transmission of knowledge and culture from generation to generation, through the training of quick minds and pure hearts, and for this work no other human invention will suffice, not even trade and industrial schools. "

I have always ascribed to WEB Dubois philosophy of the Talented Tenth, which is why I do not believe college is for everyone (which WEB DuBois says in this speech by the way). To answer your question Pop, HBCUs switched their philosphy once we started losing the best and the brightest to PWIs after integration. HBCUs were late establishing entrance requirements to our schools, which put us behind the eight ball when PWIs began to do so. In defense of HBCU administrators and their decision to hold off on this, black public education was still a bit disjointed and viewed as subpar so HBCUs were afriad to turn a kid away simply because he/she lacked educational training. In addition, back then Pookie and Ray Ray were not pushed to attend college just because as they are today. The best and the brightest were supposed to go off, get an education, and bring it back to the uplift the rest of the community. If Pookie and Ray Ray wanted an education they were encouraged to pursue an industrial education. As a result of integration and the loss of the best and the brightest, HBCUs had to find a new niche and attract new types of students. Most of our institutions were still open admissions (especially the newer HBCUs) which resulted in an influx of ill-prepared students. If HBCUs had closed admissions, relatively higher admission standards from the start, and an equal black public education system, I think our playing field would be a bit more level (despite obvious lack of resources we have dealt with over the years).Do I think that HBCUs are still needed and relavant - absolutely, as I think that we are a people that are wired to succeed with less and have proven that in our history. However, I no longer see the purpose of open admissions 4-year institutions, HBCUs or not. If a subpar student (black or white) wants to attend college, send them to a community college. If someone asked you the difference between the mission of the community college and an open admissions HBCU today, what would you say? Access to all, Education for all? Sounds quite similiar.

 

[jsupop33]

The question is, when did schools change TO open admissions, if they weren't originally that way?

If I am not mistaken, most schools were open admissions but as access improved, they closed their admissions. Some of ours were late to that party.

 

[TSUGIRL07]

The question is, when did schools change TO open admissions, if they weren't originally that way?

All schools, even Harvard started off open admissions. They were feeder schools for the white male elite to go and talk about politics and become better leaders and orators. Black schools were invented to serve two purposes, create teachers and clergy (Howard and Fisk) or industrial workers (Tuskgee and Hampton). There were no standards established in higher education until the early 1900s and even then they were still relatively loose and not consistent. When Carnegie got involved with ranking and standardizing higher education in the 1930s/40s that's when institutions began to see the need of establishing standards and requiring some type of document that you had a public education. Most HBCUs (there were a few exceptions) did not at this point, which is why many remained and/or were established as open admissions institutions to provide education to all. Back then I don't necessarily see the open admissions policies at HBCUs as a bad thing because most of the "Talented Tenth" were still being pushed to HBCUs and students that were not college material were not encouraged to attend college.

You have to remember that standards did not exist because until the late 1800s/early 1900s in the US a true public school system did not exist. Colleges and universities came along way before public education did in America.

 

[jag4life]

If HBCUs had closed admissions, relatively higher admission standards from the start, and an equal black public education system, I think our playing field would be a bit more level (despite obvious lack of resources we have dealt with over the years).Do I think that HBCUs are still needed and relavant - absolutely, as I think that we are a people that are wired to succeed with less and have proven that in our history. However, I no longer see the purpose of open admissions 4-year institutions, HBCUs or not. If a subpar student (black or white) wants to attend college, send them to a community college. If someone asked you the difference between the mission of the community college and an open admissions HBCU today, what would you say? Access to all, Education for all? Sounds quite similiar.

Not that I am pro-OPEN admissions, but how would higher admissions standards level the playing field? I am fine with SU's standards as they stand now. You shouldn't be admitted with a sub-2.2 or an ACT lower than 18, but I also think requiring a 3.3 like some big state schools is not something public HBCUs should strive to emulate. That goes back to what I said about the national ranking systems that use criteria like selectivity and incoming freshman GPA/SAT to determine if the education that will be RECEIVED at the school is worthwhile.

 

[TSUGIRL07]

Not that I am pro-OPEN admissions, but how would higher admissions standards level the playing field? I am fine with SU's standards as they stand now. You shouldn't be admitted with a sub-2.2 or an ACT lower than 18, but I also think requiring a 3.3 like some big state schools is not something public HBCUs should strive to emulate. That goes back to what I said about the national ranking systems that use criteria like selectivity and incoming freshman GPA/SAT to determine if the education that will be RECEIVED at the school is worthwhile.

I am not saying now that we should instill higher admission standards out of nowhere. I agree with the admission standards of closed admission based HBCUs across the country. That comment was refering to if we had begin to have admission standards and closed admissions when PWIs did in the 1920s-1940s, then the playing field would have been a bit closer today because we would have still been educating the best of the brightest - the talented tenth. Pookie and Ray Ray would not know that they would have us to fall back on when they half-assed through high school and we would not be seen as last resort institutions. HBCUs would have never been open to African Americans or any race for that matter if they did not meet certain academic requirements. I don't think all HBCUs should strive for a 3.3 either, but a 2.5 GPA and a 17 ACT score is not much to ask and shows the student at least tried in high school and can be nurtured and molded at an HBCU to reach his/her potential. If they don't meet those standards, then send them to a community college where they can mature and improve academically, but keep them enaged with your respective HBCU so you get them when they want to transfer.

Note: This does mean that our campuses would not have gone through corrupt administrators and resource inequalities.

 

[jag4life]

I am not saying now that we should instill higher admission standards out of nowhere. I agree with the admission standards of closed admission based HBCUs across the country. That comment was refering to if we had begin to have admission standards and closed admissions when PWIs did in the 1920s-1940s, then the playing field would have been a bit closer today because we would have still been educating the best of the brightest - the talented tenth. Pookie and Ray Ray would not know that they would have us to fall back on when they half-assed through high school and we would not be seen as last resort institutions. HBCUs would have never been open to African Americans or any race for that matter if they did not meet certain academic requirements. I don't think all HBCUs should strive for a 3.3 either, but a 2.5 GPA and a 17 ACT score is not much to ask and shows the student at least tried in high school and can be nurtured and molded at an HBCU to reach his/her potential. If they don't meet those standards, then send them to a community college where they can mature and improve academically, but keep them enaged with your respective HBCU so you get them when they want to transfer.

Note: This does mean that our campuses would not have gone through corrupt administrators and resource inequalities.

Good post, though I still don't think simply closing admissions back in the 20's-40's would have prevented more of our best and brightest from going to PWIs. Much of their decisions are based on things other than selectivity of the school, if you get what I'm saying.

 

[CEE DOG]

I totally disagree with you Pops and TSUgirl. I wish I could find this article about this black female doctor from Chicago who attended AAMU. She talked about how she stayed in trouble and barley graduated high school. One of her family friends told her about AAMU and she applied and came to AAMU. At AAMU she majored in biology and was taken under the wings by one of her professors. Upon graduating she went back to Chicago to teach at a high school when she realized she wanted to go to med school. She applied for med school at the University of Illinois and got accepted. The young lady pointed out if not for AAMU open enrollment in the late 90's she would not have made it. You guys only see the small picture because you have been mislead to believe the grass is greener. It is not greener and many of our counterparts kids still get in school off of under cover open enrollment. if you believe every one of their kids go to college with good grades you are sadly mistaken. get off of your spoiled azz high horses.

 

[jsupop33]

Cee, she is the exception and not the rule. I guarantee if you speak the administrators at AAMU, they will cringe at the thought of admitting a large group of 2.0's.

As I said before, a 2.5 and 16 ACT isn't asking for much. Atleast show that you gave some sort of effort in high school.

 

[CEE DOG]

That is not true. If the talented tenth is producing such wide spread success, why are HBCU's still producing the majority of every degree field? Yes the Ivy's and the so called are graduating grads, but with out HBCU's the numbers would be low!!!!!

Cee, she is the exception and not the rule. I guarantee if you speak the administrators at AAMU, they will cringe at the thought of admitting a large group of 2.0's.

As I said before, a 2.5 and 16 ACT isn't asking for much. Atleast show that you gave some sort of effort in high school.

 

[jsupop33]

What are our on-time grad rates? Now, what do you think is the on-time grad rate for kids we let in with a 2.5 or lower?

 

[CEE DOG]

What are our on-time grad rates? Now, what do you think is the on-time grad rate for kids we let in with a 2.5 or lower?

Pops grads rates don't mean jack dude. Reality does. You know I was talking to a group of folks about you and these grads rates yesterday. I brought up the topic to see if it was just me. All of them, a group of 15 are engineers between the age of 30-42 all stated it took them more than five years because they had to work to support themselves in school. The reality of life is everyone doesn't come from a family who supports them. For instance my lil cousin at AAMU, her roommate is from St Louis. This lil girl is graduating this summer. It took her six years. You know why? It is because she works to help her mother and two lil sisters back at home in STL. This baby told me she sends half of her check home so her mother can pay rent. Wake up dude reality is out here. Man if I took the attitude that many of you folks had I would be screwed up. Although I am far from being poor, I still understand how and why folks struggle. I will never let materials, a career or a dang status make me not see the struggle of the everyday man. An who ever told you making 100k is success lied. The only difference between a 100K and 40K is you are able to pay your debt on time.

 

[str8brave]

Pops grads rates don't mean jack dude. Reality does. You know I was talking to a group of folks about you and these grads rates yesterday. I brought up the topic to see if it was just me. All of them, a group of 15 are engineers between the age of 30-42 all stated it took them more than five years because they had to work to support themselves in school. The reality of life is everyone doesn't come from a family who supports them. For instance my lil cousin at AAMU, her roommate is from St Louis. This lil girl is graduating this summer. It took her six years. You know why? It is because she works to help her mother and two lil sisters back at home in STL. This baby told me she sends half of her check home so her mother can pay rent. Wake up dude reality is out here. Man if I took the attitude that many of you folks had I would be screwed up. Although I am far from being poor, I still understand how and why folks struggle. I will never let materials, a career or a dang status make me not see the struggle of the everyday man. An who ever told you making 100k is success lied. The only difference between a 100K and 40K is you are able to pay your debt on time.

The "doors of the church are open"...cause CEE mane you just preached...lol

 

[jsupop33]

Pops grads rates don't mean jack dude. Reality does. You know I was talking to a group of folks about you and these grads rates yesterday. I brought up the topic to see if it was just me. All of them, a group of 15 are engineers between the age of 30-42 all stated it took them more than five years because they had to work to support themselves in school. The reality of life is everyone doesn't come from a family who supports them. For instance my lil cousin at AAMU, her roommate is from St Louis. This lil girl is graduating this summer. It took her six years. You know why? It is because she works to help her mother and two lil sisters back at home in STL. This baby told me she sends half of her check home so her mother can pay rent. Wake up dude reality is out here. Man if I took the attitude that many of you folks had I would be screwed up. Although I am far from being poor, I still understand how and why folks struggle. I will never let materials, a career or a dang status make me not see the struggle of the everyday man. An who ever told you making 100k is success lied. The only difference between a 100K and 40K is you are able to pay your debt on time.

Bruh, even with those long term completion numbers, I am telling you that that bottom tier of students we let in for the most part are never finishing school. I went to a higher ed convention here in DC a few months back and was in a room with a group of VP's, Deans, and a few Presidents from HBCU's. The subject of admission requirements came up. One guy stood up and said he cringes everytime he sees someone admitted with below a 2.7 because he knows it is an 85% chance that kid may not finish in 6 years, and a 65% chance that they will never finish but in the end, it comes down to a money decision.

This is all I am saying, if you want to go to a four year school after school, pay your dues. If not, go to community college until you man up/woman up and handle business.

 

[J C]

Board scores were not used as admission requirements in Alabama's higher education institutions until 1964. The famous "Franklin Rule" grew out of Bama State grad Harold Franklin attempt to enter Auburn Univ grad school.

 

[TSUGIRL07]

Cee who said that the kids can't go to school? My point is I don't think HBCUs should be letting in the Ray Rays and Pookie's of the world who see our schools as a last resort anyway. These are the kids that are affecting our graduation and rentention rates, not engineers, part-time students, or working students. If they goofed off in high school and have a 1.6 GPA they should be sent to a community college for at least the first year before coming to our institution. That gives them the opportunity to mature and we don't have to waste resources on a student that really is not interested in obtaining a degree. Do we keep tabs on them? Yes and I hope we encourage them to come back to our institutions, but I for one am sick of us allowing the kid in who wakes up one day and decides that they want to go to college because it is the cool thing to do. Kids with those types of attitudes should use the community college system until they mature. HBCUs only have limited resources as it is, so why waste them on a kid that really does not want to be there and/or has no intention of gaining a college education? While I don't believe in the misconstrued rentention and graduation numbers because our large transfer populations are not counted, I do realize that we have to change in some regards. I applaud AAMU for taking a chance on the kid, TSU and every other HBCU in the SWAC has those stories, which we should be proud of. But for every kid that we admit under the open admission clause that does make it, there is twice as many that fail simply because they should not have been there in the first place. I have a little cousin who is a prime example. She played me around this time two years ago when I was helping her get into TSU about how she wanted to go to college when she really just wanted to get out of the country and move to Houston. At the time, I did not know her GPA was a 1.6 and she was not admitted. Her GPA was even to low to get admitted into the summer bridge program. I made a phone call to vouch for her and they let her in. She flunked out in a year and a half. Why? Because after I went and spoke with her high school teachers, she was not ready for college level work. I felt like an idiot and realized then that if she wanted to go to school, she should have gone the community college route first and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem with us is we are too prideful to suggest our kids go to Juco or techinical school when they are not capable or willing to do the work. Addressing your last assumption, trust me as militant as I am I know not all white kids are not going to college with great grades. They are worse at nepotism and making exceptions for their own than we are. I am far from spoiled and I take pride in reaching back and helping kids from my hometown consider HBCUs and college in general that would have never considered it before.

There is no way around this point: A 2.4 or 2.5 GPA and a 17 ACT score is not hard to get at all and regardless of what you think, HBCUs were not created to serve the Ray Ray's and Pookies that we tend to cater to now. Yes Ray Ray and Pookie need a trade/skill to be productive citizens, but if they don't have at least the minimum to get into a summer bridge program, then they should head to their local community college and/or trade school. Then transfer to AAMU the following year once they mature and get serious about their education.

 

[CEE DOG]

Sorry TSUgirl and Pops, I will fight yall until the end on this one. Now I will say I do see your points slightly, but I just can't give up on everyone.

 

[Panther88]

There is no way around this point: A 2.4 or 2.5 GPA and a 17 ACT score is not hard to get at all and regardless of what you think, HBCUs were not created to serve the Ray Ray's and Pookies that we tend to cater to now. Yes Ray Ray and Pookie need a trade/skill to be productive citizens, but if they don't have at least the minimum to get into a summer bridge program, then they should head to their local community college and/or trade school. Then transfer to AAMU the following year once they mature and get serious about their education.

+1. Nice post. :tup:

 

[dacontinent]

In the summer of 1981, Jackson State was under fire about its admissions policy. I was in summer school and had a part-time job in Modern Foreign Languages. So, I went along with Dr. Barbara Dease to the faculty meeting. There was much banter as Dr. Peoples had be silent on the subject prior to this meeting. I asked for and was granted the opportunity to speak.

Basically, I told them that it really didn't matter what the admissions requirements were. The measure of the university comes down to the capabilities of those granted degrees by the university; not by the best of those students, but by the least. Every faculty member who spoke following me spoke in support of that very conclusion.

 

[CEE DOG]

My point exactly. We have gotten to the point where we feel as though we have to compete and chase others instead of helping our own.

In the summer of 1981, Jackson State was under fire about its admissions policy. I was in summer school and had a part-time job in Modern Foreign Languages. So, I went along with Dr. Barbara Dease to the faculty meeting. There was much banter as Dr. Peoples had be silent on the subject prior to this meeting. I asked for and was granted the opportunity to speak.

Basically, I told them that it really didn't matter what the admissions requirements were. The measure of the university comes down to the capabilities of those granted degrees by the university; not by the best of those students, but by the least. Every faculty member who spoke following me spoke in support of that very conclusion.

 

[Panther88]

In the summer of 1981, Jackson State was under fire about its admissions policy. I was in summer school and had a part-time job in Modern Foreign Languages. So, I went along with Dr. Barbara Dease to the faculty meeting. There was much banter as Dr. Peoples had be silent on the subject prior to this meeting. I asked for and was granted the opportunity to speak.

Basically, I told them that it really didn't matter what the admissions requirements were. The measure of the university comes down to the capabilities of those granted degrees by the university; not by the best of those students, but by the least. Every faculty member who spoke following me spoke in support of that very conclusion.

Why should the federal gov't foist grants/student loan $$$$ towards an entity that's deemed econimcally disadvantageous? (non-viable) The gov't should just toss $$$$ in the atlantic ocean if it starts to support entities that aren't contributing, right? Giving grant $$$$/student loan $$$, which won't be paid back most likely due to drop-outs not caring since they weren't academically capable from the outset, is tossing $$$$ down the drain.

What's appealing about a 13% graduation rate? Seriously. It's very telling that quite a few PWCUs have NOW outpaced graduating African-Americans @ a clip > than HBCUs. I don't understand how any college graduate could justify this type of poor performance.

 

[Killer Bees]

Cee who said that the kids can't go to school? My point is I don't think HBCUs should be letting in the Ray Rays and Pookie's of the world who see our schools as a last resort anyway. These are the kids that are affecting our graduation and rentention rates, not engineers, part-time students, or working students. If they goofed off in high school and have a 1.6 GPA they should be sent to a community college for at least the first year before coming to our institution. That gives them the opportunity to mature and we don't have to waste resources on a student that really is not interested in obtaining a degree. Do we keep tabs on them? Yes and I hope we encourage them to come back to our institutions, but I for one am sick of us allowing the kid in who wakes up one day and decides that they want to go to college because it is the cool thing to do. Kids with those types of attitudes should use the community college system until they mature. HBCUs only have limited resources as it is, so why waste them on a kid that really does not want to be there and/or has no intention of gaining a college education? While I don't believe in the misconstrued rentention and graduation numbers because our large transfer populations are not counted, I do realize that we have to change in some regards. I applaud AAMU for taking a chance on the kid, TSU and every other HBCU in the SWAC has those stories, which we should be proud of. But for every kid that we admit under the open admission clause that does make it, there is twice as many that fail simply because they should not have been there in the first place. I have a little cousin who is a prime example. She played me around this time two years ago when I was helping her get into TSU about how she wanted to go to college when she really just wanted to get out of the country and move to Houston. At the time, I did not know her GPA was a 1.6 and she was not admitted. Her GPA was even to low to get admitted into the summer bridge program. I made a phone call to vouch for her and they let her in. She flunked out in a year and a half. Why? Because after I went and spoke with her high school teachers, she was not ready for college level work. I felt like an idiot and realized then that if she wanted to go to school, she should have gone the community college route first and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem with us is we are too prideful to suggest our kids go to Juco or techinical school when they are not capable or willing to do the work. Addressing your last assumption, trust me as militant as I am I know not all white kids are not going to college with great grades. They are worse at nepotism and making exceptions for their own than we are. I am far from spoiled and I take pride in reaching back and helping kids from my hometown consider HBCUs and college in general that would have never considered it before.

There is no way around this point: A 2.4 or 2.5 GPA and a 17 ACT score is not hard to get at all and regardless of what you think, HBCUs were not created to serve the Ray Ray's and Pookies that we tend to cater to now. Yes Ray Ray and Pookie need a trade/skill to be productive citizens, but if they don't have at least the minimum to get into a summer bridge program, then they should head to their local community college and/or trade school. Then transfer to AAMU the following year once they mature and get serious about their education.

I approved this message. :clap: