KKPsi and TBS more bad than good?

[tsugraytiger]

Two of the best marching bands in the nation, The Human Jukebox and Sonic Boom of the South, no longer have active chapters of Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma which I find interesting. We all know they succumbed first and foremost due to illegal and dangerous hazing rituals.

So do ya'll think it's a good thing if they disappear b/c having them can obviously create more division/drama in the band? Or do you all think having them gone will put them at a disadvantage for recruitment of new talent a/g schools with active chapters such as Texas Southern, Grambling, Alcorn, etc? But to be honest, SU and JSU has never been better in my opinion

Leave your thoughts below .....

 

[number1]

We haven't had TBS at SU for well over 20 years and KKY for 11 years. I don't think it's affected our program at all.Pretty much the ones that probably would have been interested in either organization just go join the music fraternities (MPE, PMA, and SAI).

 

[Basebone1898]

I have seen and heard about band cancer stories among the two organizations.


I love the story I was told about the day Dr. Greggs let them know who called the shots and what will go on in the future. Smart decision.

 

[JR]

Two of the best marching bands in the nation, The Human Jukebox and Sonic Boom of the South, no longer have active chapters of Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma which I find interesting. We all know they succumbed first and foremost due to illegal and dangerous hazing rituals.

So do ya'll think it's a good thing if they disappear b/c having them can obviously create more division/drama in the band? Or do you all think having them gone will put them at a disadvantage for recruitment of new talent a/g schools with active chapters such as Texas Southern, Grambling, Alcorn, etc? But to be honest, SU and JSU has never been better in my opinion

Leave your thoughts below .....

Folks who are not members of these organizations often think they are not needed. I personally think SU and JSU need the FRAT Back. (JSU does have TBS and them ladies work). Both bands would be enhanced in my opinion. HH has been gone since 93 time frame and ZN around 08-09 time frame.

When I marched, the bands had a fellowship with each other. No matter the rivarly. The main reason was KKPSI lead the way to instill some of that. To show you how much it means, I was mentored by KKPSI members from JSU while in High School. Even though I went on to SU. The Frat when done right is not one that will tear the program down.

Hazing is always a concern. Frat or no Frat. But the Band Directors can dictate WHO THEY WANT IN THE FRAT. I think they forget that. Hell I remember when I went to the KKPSI smoker in 1985 and Doc came in and looked at who was in there and he was already sizing up who he was going to tell the Brothers of KKPSI who he didn't want. LOL. Doc knew Psi was good for the band. He didn't trust the individuals coming through like he trusted us in the 80s. And it wasn't because of hazing. Doc had standards you had to meet. He told us old heads once before he retired. "I didn't have to worry about y'all the way I have to worry about these kids"

Oh and if you think SU and JSU bands are better now than they were in the 80s when PSI ran both bands. Go back and look at some film. Those bands would crush these bands. Different mentality then.

I am hoping for a ZN return sooner than later.

 

[JR]

I have seen and heard about band cancer stories among the two organizations.


I love the story I was told about the day Dr. Greggs let them know who called the shots and what will go on in the future. Smart decision.

All this band cancer stuff came with the new thought processes of the kids period. Psi or TBS didn't make it an issue. We always knew Doc ran stuff, But he always knew he could count on us. Every organization goes through a rough patch with the wrong kind of dudes or ladies being allowed to pledge. That's bottom line.

Some schools keep it moving with no issues.

 

[JR]

We haven't had TBS at SU for well over 20 years and KKY for 11 years. I don't think it's affected our program at all.Pretty much the ones that probably would have been interested in either organization just go join the music fraternities (MPE, PMA, and SAI).

You really would have had to been in that band room during them 80s with Psi. We had very few TBS because they had to be in Doc's concert band. But them ladies made things happen for the band logistics wise and they couldn't even march. LOL.

I wish you younger cats could have seen and felt the vibe of the 80s and early 90s. I know some of them early 90s pissed Doc off. But he allowed the Frat to get too BIG. I remember telling him on a visit, Half your band is my frat, WTF? He got carried away and it burned him with some individuals that gave him grief. The last go around before he retired, his own assistants who are my Frat didn't support him like they should have. That's another sore subject.

 

[Basebone1898]

All this band cancer stuff came with the new thought processes of the kids period. Psi or TBS didn't make it an issue. We always knew Doc ran stuff, But he always knew he could count on us. Every organization goes through a rough patch with the wrong kind of dudes or ladies being allowed to pledge. That's bottom line.

Some schools keep it moving with no issues.

I do agree about the new era of kids, but I have heard about and seen too many cancer stories about these organizations.

 

[tsugraytiger]

I do agree about the new era of kids, but I have heard about and seen too many cancer stories about these organizations.

I agree, I personally never seen a PSI line over 10 in the SWAC and to me that's a problem. If PSI main purpose is building a brotherhood with fellow band mates, how come no more than 10 usually cross at one time?? The SWAC bands are relatively large

 

[Basebone1898]

As much as I don’t care for some of the crap I am seeing from many of today’s SWAC bands (and I mean just about everybody), I salute SU and JSU for making great decisions. So many HBCU programs can’t get over the hump with their programs due to the division that is created through pledging sections, and the brainwashing of band fraternities. KKY and TBS could be great things for a band, but our HBCU’s take things to another level that usually leads to them getting kicked off campus or being dismissed by the band director.


I have to kick my PMA brothers in their arses sometimes for trying to be something they are not on their campus as well. The next story will be a question of why so many black chapters of PMA struggle to make it.

 

[JR]

I agree, I personally never seen a PSI line over 10 in the SWAC and to me that's a problem. If PSI main purpose is building a brotherhood with fellow band mates, how come no more than 10 usually cross at one time?? The SWAC bands are relatively large

It’s easier to control. Think about it. 10 Psi and 10 TBS per year is enough. That’s 20 neos. You have 3 straight years of that and you got damn near 60 folks

 

[JR]

As much as I don’t care for some of the crap I am seeing from many of today’s SWAC bands (and I mean just about everybody), I salute SU and JSU for making great decisions. So many HBCU programs can’t get over the hump with their programs due to the division that is created through pledging sections, and the brainwashing of band fraternities. KKY and TBS could be great things for a band, but our HBCU’s take things to another level that usually leads to them getting kicked off campus or being dismissed by the band director.


I have to kick my PMA brothers in their arses sometimes for trying to be something they are not on their campus as well. The next story will be a question of why so many black chapters of PMA struggle to make it.

That was never a problem in our band room.

Doc let it be known that Psi were the band leaders and we had no issues with those who didn’t pledge. That’s part of being a leader. We actually squashed a lot of personal beef folks had with each other that nothing to do with being Psi. The Band Captain was always Psi so was the DM . That’s how Doc wanted it. But sometimes it didn’t work that way and all accommodated it. My Crab brother Ralph Chapman at PV pledged Phi Mu. We wanted him to pledge with us. We had no issues with Ralph and he was in a section full of Psi. Folks still friends with who they want to be. But Doc did have us a top of the food chain after him of course. Lol. The edge added to that band room was legendary. Not to mention we had some of the most successful in life cats come through ZN and did more than just wear letters. Doc had it right. Unfortunately he didn’t trust the newer generation like he did us so he felt like he go without it. It wasn’t until the PV fight. He realized he may need to bring back Psi. The band had gotten arrogant to a point where if the frat was there. They probably diffuse all that band tension. We had a big discussion about it and soon the boys were back. These newer band directors are scared of the fraternity I believe.

 

[Basebone1898]

That was never a problem in our band room.

Doc let it be known that Psi were the band leaders and we had no issues with those who didn’t pledge. That’s part of being a leader. We actually squashed a lot of personal beef folks had with each other that nothing to do with being Psi. The Band Captain was always Psi so was the DM . That’s how Doc wanted it. But sometimes it didn’t work that way and all accommodated it. My Crab brother Ralph Chapman at PV pledged Phi Mu. We wanted him to pledge with us. We had no issues with Ralph and he was in a section full of Psi. Folks still friends with who they want to be. But Doc did have us a top of the food chain after him of course. Lol. The edge added to that band room was legendary. Not to mention we had some of the most successful in life cats come through ZN and did more than just wear letters. Doc had it right. Unfortunately he didn’t trust the newer generation like he did us so he felt like he go without it. It wasn’t until the PV fight. He realized he may need to bring back Psi. The band had gotten arrogant to a point where if the frat was there. They probably diffuse all that band tension. We had a big discussion about it and soon the boys were back. These newer band directors are scared of the fraternity I believe.

JR, I hear ya, but I have been raised and taught be SU folks who have given me stories as well. Your words sound very much up to par to what I have been told, but I was told that it wasn’t a “problem” only because Doc ain’t allow it to being a problem. What’s amazing to me is how a 92 trumpet Jukebox alumni who is in my circle actually broke things down to me on how KKY is a cancer and has hurt certain bands from reaching their peak. In fact, I have seen and heard plenty of non-KKY SU alumni complain about certain BS that has come out of the mouths of past KKY members from SU.

For the record, I am not trying to debate something that you have been on the inside of, I am just posting points that I have gathered from HBCU band heads from all conferences are in my circle of associates. From battle of the bands in any state to big time classics, we always run into “what’s up with the bands” and “how things are at my school” talks. For he most part, folks agree that HBCU KKY chapters take the unity out of marching bands and creat division inside of programs. The most programs either don’t have and active chapter, or have the leadership strong enough to let them know that the best musicians and true leaders run the band.

 

[number1]

JR, I hear ya, but I have been raised and taught be SU folks who have given me stories as well. Your words sound very much up to par to what I have been told, but I was told that it wasn’t a “problem” only because Doc ain’t allow it to being a problem. What’s amazing to me is how a 92 trumpet Jukebox alumni who is in my circle actually broke things down to me on how KKY is a cancer and has hurt certain bands from reaching their peak. In fact, I have seen and heard plenty of non-KKY SU alumni complain about certain BS that has come out of the mouths of past KKY members from SU.

For the record, I am not trying to debate something that you have been on the inside of, I am just posting points that I have gathered from HBCU band heads from all conferences are in my circle of associates. From battle of the bands in any state to big time classics, we always run into “what’s up with the bands” and “how things are at my school” talks. For he most part, folks agree that HBCU KKY chapters take the unity out of marching bands and creat division inside of programs. The most programs either don’t have and active chapter, or have the leadership strong enough to let them know that the best musicians and true leaders run the band.

That's very legit. However, I think the real problem is the section fraternities.

 

[Basebone1898]

That's very legit. However, I think the real problem is the section fraternities.

All man, that’s the root of the division problem! After the section crap, you move on to who pledges KKY, TBS, SAI and PMA. Then you get ones who cross KKY/TBS and then think the are automatically leaders even if they weren’t all that good of musicians or nobodies in the band to begin with. Next is the PMA/SAI bunch who think the letters make them professional musician/singers, or give them a pass to “act” like Nupes and Deltas on the yard instead of doing when the organization is supposed to do for the music department.

Yes my brutha, I have seen and heard it all. Lol.

 

[JR]

That's very legit. However, I think the real problem is the section fraternities.

Now that section Frat shit was dumb and good leadership would have put that to and end. We all enjoyed going through whatever each section as a Crab. Trumpets we were Screaming Demons. Not that SphiD crap. The upperclassmen didn’t play that shit. At SU you better had walked line to claim you pledged in the 80s. Doc would have zipped our asses trying to pledge a section. Crabbing a section. Yes. Section Frat. That shit caused SU problem in the late 2000’s. More than KKPSI ever caused

 

[tsugraytiger]

It’s easier to control. Think about it. 10 Psi and 10 TBS per year is enough. That’s 20 neos. You have 3 straight years of that and you got damn near 60 folks

Naw bruh ... since when is there a limited number on PSI brotherhood or sisterhood ... look at the PWI chapters that are way bigger and easier to get into, and seem to be functioning fine enough. There's strength in numbers. Anyone interested and meet the qualifications should be able to join but that's never been the case with greek orgs at HBCUs especially. Like I said, I have seen huge PSI and TBS lines out there but HBCUs got to make it damn near impossible and add extra BS to it. I understand you love PSI, but shouldn't stop you from being honest and objective.

Personally, I don't believe you can build a genuine brotherhood and sisterhood simply through pledging and joining an organization but you get my point. My PSI roommate at TSU definitely didn't like or respect his chapter and some alumni members .... seen it first hand. And I've seen personally PSI, TBS, band frats, section frats scare away good band members ... I know of two that transferred across the street to UH's band b/c of their mess and drama.

 

[tsugraytiger]

Now that section Frat shit was dumb and good leadership would have put that to and end. We all enjoyed going through whatever each section as a Crab. Trumpets we were Screaming Demons. Not that SphiD crap. The upperclassmen didn’t play that shit. At SU you better had walked line to claim you pledged in the 80s. Doc would have zipped our asses trying to pledge a section. Crabbing a section. Yes. Section Frat. That shit caused SU problem in the late 2000’s. More than KKPSI ever caused

WAYMENT!!!!! You said Doc would have zipped asses trying to pledge a section??! I've had SU and Human Jukebox alumni tell me from the 80s through the 00s that band hazing on campus (especially if you were a man) was very rough, unreal, in your face and of course this was doing Doc's era. I love Doc and he's a band icon (not just HBCU bands too) but he never had a good handle on the rouge behavior in the band and likely secretly encouraged it. I even heard some stories of the Fabulous Dolls hazing from alumni Dolls. Hazing culture in SU band was the norm and I bet is still going on .... but again I know back in the day they were getting they a** whooped in public!

I will never understand why our HBCU bands just can't focus on respecting everyone, school spirit, unity, academics, and great musicianship in its purest form. Enduring hazing to gain respect from your peers is sick and disturbing and doesn't help with the main purpose of a band whatsoever.

 

[JR]

WAYMENT!!!!! You said Doc would have zipped asses trying to pledge a section??! I've had SU and Human Jukebox alumni tell me from the 80s through the 00s that band hazing on campus (especially if you were a man) was very rough, unreal, in your face and of course this was doing Doc's era. I love Doc and he's a band icon (not just HBCU bands too) but he never had a good handle on the rouge behavior in the band and likely secretly encouraged it. I even heard some stories of the Fabulous Dolls hazing from alumni Dolls. Hazing culture in SU band was the norm and I bet is still going on .... but again I know back in the day they were getting they a** whooped in public!

I will never understand why our HBCU bands just can't focus on respecting everyone, school spirit, unity, academics, and great musicianship in its purest form. Enduring hazing to gain respect from your peers is sick and disturbing and doesn't help with the main purpose of a band whatsoever.

There was no pledging of sections. Being a Crab was totally different. You cats have no clue and listen to disgruntled people. There was no pledging of individual sections. Lol. Smh at the narrative that has described. You newer school folks got a bone to pick with Psi for some reason. So be it. I am glad different minds and mentality happened during my era. And if your roommate hated being in Psi? Why did he pledge? Y’all listen to too many embellished stories. I guess you feel the same way about the military. The way you think is we got our ass beat daily in the 80s. I had 17 line brothers and we all turned out well. Leaders!

 

[JR]

Naw bruh ... since when is there a limited number on PSI brotherhood or sisterhood ... look at the PWI chapters that are way bigger and easier to get into, and seem to be functioning fine enough. There's strength in numbers. Anyone interested and meet the qualifications should be able to join but that's never been the case with greek orgs at HBCUs especially. Like I said, I have seen huge PSI and TBS lines out there but HBCUs got to make it damn near impossible and add extra BS to it. I understand you love PSI, but shouldn't stop you from being honest and objective.

Personally, I don't believe you can build a genuine brotherhood and sisterhood simply through pledging and joining an organization but you get my point. My PSI roommate at TSU definitely didn't like or respect his chapter and some alumni members .... seen it first hand. And I've seen personally PSI, TBS, band frats, section frats scare away good band members ... I know of two that transferred across the street to UH's band b/c of their mess and drama.

Smh. TxSU got a band director problem period. Your school alums and leadership need to address that.

 

[tsugraytiger]

There was no pledging of sections. Being a Crab was totally different. You cats have no clue and listen to disgruntled people. There was no pledging of individual sections. Lol. Smh at the narrative that has described. You newer school folks got a bone to pick with Psi for some reason. So be it. I am glad different minds and mentality happened during my era. And if your roommate hated being in Psi? Why did he pledge? Y’all listen to too many embellished stories. I guess you feel the same way about the military. The way you think is we got our ass beat daily in the 80s. I had 17 line brothers and we all turned out well. Leaders!

I'm OK with a strenuous hazing process for membership into the military because YOU ARE HEADED INTO PHYSICAL COMBAT/BATTLE AGAINST OTHER COUNTRIES!!!! Joining college organizations are no way the same as joining the military so the process should be completely different ... the closest thing college orgs have to a "battle" are step shows, band competitions, and stroll offs which I've seen successfully take place on the middle school level with no hazing involved. I hate when people use that analogy to justify college hazing b/c it's soooo ridiculous. The fact you think the two are the same means the conversation is ending from my end LOL.

 

[Basebone1898]

There was no pledging of sections. Being a Crab was totally different. You cats have no clue and listen to disgruntled people. There was no pledging of individual sections. Lol. Smh at the narrative that has described. You newer school folks got a bone to pick with Psi for some reason. So be it. I am glad different minds and mentality happened during my era. And if your roommate hated being in Psi? Why did he pledge? Y’all listen to too many embellished stories. I guess you feel the same way about the military. The way you think is we got our ass beat daily in the 80s. I had 17 line brothers and we all turned out well. Leaders!

I know I have more than a clue. The SU folks in my family and circle were beast in their years there, and respect me too much to BS me. I have been told by many SU folks that “I know too damn much” to say I decided to travel up north to be a Gramblinite. I roll around the SWAC with early 90s to mid 80’s SU beast. Without sounding like I am bragging on this thread, I can PM you my credibility when speaking about SU and there business.



It’s not about having a bone to pick with KKY. It’s about calling it what it is. I have been in many band rooms, know plenty of former HBCU band members, and network with plenty of band heads. It’s safe to give SU props for Greggs not allowing KKY to run the program. Many other universities can’t say that. It is what it is.

I will never forget one of my mentors/big bros from SU (1st trumpet c/o 93) checking a dude from Kentucky State who tried to make a point on how Psi could do wonders at SU had they reminded active. He asked the KSU dude, “so why in the hell does KSU sound like sh-t if Psi has been active for all of these years?” Then he told the dude that SU’s band is better than Kentucky State’s because of the love, unity and leadership it has over allowing college kids with band letters to think they are leaders because of what fraternity they are in! I use his example all of the time.

 

[JR]

I know I have more than a clue. The SU folks in my family and circle were beast in their years there, and respect me too much to BS me. I have been told by many SU folks that “I know too damn much” to say I decided to travel up north to be a Gramblinite. I roll around the SWAC with early 90s to mid 80’s SU beast. Without sounding like I am bragging on this thread, I can PM you my credibility when speaking about SU and there business.



It’s not about having a bone to pick with KKY. It’s about calling it what it is. I have been in many band rooms, know plenty of former HBCU band members, and network with plenty of band heads. It’s safe to give SU props for Greggs not allowing KKY to run the program. Many other universities can’t say that. It is what it is.

I will never forget one of my mentors/big bros from SU (1st trumpet c/o 93) checking a dude from Kentucky State who tried to make a point on how Psi could do wonders at SU had they reminded active. He asked the KSU dude, “so why in the hell does KSU sound like sh-t if Psi has been active for all of these years?” Then he told the dude that SU’s band is better than Kentucky State’s because of the love, unity and leadership it has over allowing college kids with band letters to think they are leaders because of what fraternity they are in! I use his example all of the time.

If you don’t think Doc allowed Psi to run the program in the 80s. I got swampland to sell you. Psi did exactly what he wanted and carried out his message. You can continue to listen to your peeps. They have their opinions. But if they told you that PSI was an issue during that time. Maybe they had an issue. It was Doc’s choice and a reason why we were in his ear. Do you know who Derrick Warren is? Ansel Bradford? Doc Paulin? Kevin Pidgeon? Donald Hornbuckle? Darrius Emanuael? Carmin Garrett? Warren Smith? Kenneth Carmouche? None of his leaders were disruptive.

 

[Fiyah]

When I marched, the bands had a fellowship with each other. No matter the rivarly. The main reason was KKPSI lead the way to instill some of that. To show you how much it means, The Frat when done right is not one that will tear the program down.

Doc had standards you had to meet. He told us old heads once before he retired. "I didn't have to worry about y'all the way I have to worry about these kids"

Oh and if you think SU and JSU bands are better now than they were in the 80s when PSI ran both bands. Go back and look at some film. Those bands would crush these bands. Different mentality then.

I am hoping for a ZN return sooner than later.

Yep, the band directors I had knew we would handle the business better than anyone else in the band.
The mentality now is just crazy to a point compared to what we came up with

I do agree about the new era of kids, but I have heard about and seen too many cancer stories about these organizations.

There is no cancer about these organizations, you always have a bad apple here or there but that can be controlled. Don't compare what one or two have done with the overall organization

I agree, I personally never seen a PSI line over 10 in the SWAC and to me that's a problem. If PSI main purpose is building a brotherhood with fellow band mates, how come no more than 10 usually cross at one time?? The SWAC bands are relatively large

Some of that now had to do with how schools have regulated organizations pledging schedule as compared to Pan Hellenic organizations schedules. When I came thru you could pledge a non Pan organization with 15 credit hours as compared to a Pan you had to have 30.

As much as I don’t care for some of the crap I am seeing from many of today’s SWAC bands (and I mean just about everybody), I salute SU and JSU for making great decisions. So many HBCU programs can’t get over the hump with their programs due to the division that is created through pledging sections, and the brainwashing of band fraternities. KKY and TBS could be great things for a band, but our HBCU’s take things to another level that usually leads to them getting kicked off campus or being dismissed by the band director.

It's those comparisons of sections to the real Frats that's bad.

There was no pledging of sections. Being a Crab was totally different. You cats have no clue and listen to disgruntled people. There was no pledging of individual sections. Lol. Smh at the narrative that has described. You newer school folks got a bone to pick with Psi for some reason. So be it. I am glad different minds and mentality happened during my era. And if your roommate hated being in Psi? Why did he pledge? Y’all listen to too many embellished stories. I guess you feel the same way about the military. The way you think is we got our ass beat daily in the 80s. I had 17 line brothers and we all turned out well. Leaders!

Yep, we didn't have this section crap they got going on now. You can't even call them Crabs anymore. Just like you JR, I was on a big line (19 in all) and we all came out great.

 

[bernard]

Two of the best marching bands in the nation, The Human Jukebox and Sonic Boom of the South, no longer have active chapters of Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma which I find interesting. We all know they succumbed first and foremost due to illegal and dangerous hazing rituals.

So do ya'll think it's a good thing if they disappear b/c having them can obviously create more division/drama in the band? Or do you all think having them gone will put them at a disadvantage for recruitment of new talent a/g schools with active chapters such as Texas Southern, Grambling, Alcorn, etc? But to be honest, SU and JSU has never been better in my opinion

Leave your thoughts below .....

Well, I guess North Carolina A&T's "Blue and Gold Marching Machine" got it right! Their entire marching band staff are all members of Kappa Kappa Psi and the directors of Golden Delight, the dance team, are all members of Tau Beta Sigma.

 

[tsugraytiger]

Well, I guess North Carolina A&T's "Blue and Gold Marching Machine" got it right! Their entire marching band staff are all members of Kappa Kappa Psi and the directors of Golden Delight, the dance team, are all members of Tau Beta Sigma.

Yeah not quite. And I like NCAT band but they are definitely not a band I'll pay to see like I would The Ocean, Juke, Boom